What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Randy,

Northern New Jersey.

About 50 years ago the greens were pretty much all velvet.

[SL_Solow]

Pat;  regarding Metedeconk, I believe that you are correct regarding the increased airflow resulting from clearing trees and brush near greens.  However they also eradicated their poa  and have relatively pure strands of newer bent grasses which also gives them a better chance.  As to the larger point, you are absolutely correct that the greater pressure on all strains of grass caused by the emphasis in faster green speeds has led to extreme measures such as fans.  But you are also correct in suggesting that it is unrealistic to expect a superintendent to tell his members that they should settle for greens stimping at 8 or below in order to avoid such measures.  Like it or not, conditions at private clubs in the USA have progressed and members will insist on faster, smooth greens.  Thus we will see a trend toward newer grasses that can withstand low cuts at higher heats due to greater density and longer/thicker roots.  Chemicals to eradicate poa will become even more popular.  Even so, greens that are located in areas where air circulation is limited and cannot be improved via vegetation removal may require fans to augment air circulation necessary for healthy turf.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SL,

Having played PV (poa) and Metedeconk (?) within a few days of one another, I can report that the greens at PV were superior and didn't show the effect of traffic as much

[SL_Solow]

Pat;  Maybe so.  But the question that clubs are asking is how will they do in extreme conditions?  In the old days (which I remember) we raised the mower heights and accepted lesser conditions.  Last year, many courses lost greens and closed down while those in reasonable proximity with the new cultivars survived with little interruption.  Many clubs have and will respond by changing the grass.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SL,

I'd like to know how much the process costs, and the down time at the various regions of the country

[JMEvensky]

SL,

I'd like to know how much the process costs, and the down time at the various regions of the country

I can give you an example from Memphis.

In about 1991,we went from common bermuda to penncross bent--for the single,misguided reason that "everyone else is doing it".

After 25 years of fighting a losing battle,even with enough fans to power a small city,we re-grassed with Champion.As is common in this area,we re-grassed on 5 July and putted on the new greens Labor Day weekend.We have 20 greens,about 120,000 square feet in total,and the all-in cost was about $105,000.

We altered no contours but re-captured some lost edges.We did nothing to any approaches nor any surrounds.

[SL_Solow]

Pat;  it varies depending on the work that the club wishes to do.  If it decides to gas and regrass without rebuilding the greens to USGA specs,  the cost will vary with the size of the greens but the ballpark is 100,000 to 200,000 for 18 greens in a region similar to US NE or midwest.  Changing drainage is an additional cost.  Process should start in time to have grow in by fall so early August is the likely shutdown.  Given average weather course should be ready by following Memorial Day.  I don't have any info for courses with year around play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JM & SL,

$ 100,000 seems very low.

I don't see how you could embark on a regrassing project without gassing/fumigating/killing all of the prior strains.

SL, why would a course with good to very good to great green contours want to convert their greens from push-ups to USGA spec ?

That cost has to be very substantial and there's no guarantee the results will be worth it.

It would seem that conversion makes sense in the south (florida & resort areas) since the growing season finds most of the members up north.  Champions. Tiff Eagle and other strains seem to have had varying successes.

I think that Old Marsh has regrassed their greens several times.
The funny thing is that every time I played Old Marsh, I thought their greens were great.

In the NorthEast or Northern MidWest, what would be the grass/es of choice ?

[JMEvensky]

$ 100,000 seems very low.

I don't see how you could embark on a regrassing project without gassing/fumigating/killing all of the prior strains.

$105,000 all in (Roundup included).I have a very high degree of confidence in that figure.

[SL_Solow]

Pat, I would not suggest going to USGA greens if you have good contours.  However the USGA consultants always start with that recommendation and some may take it.  As to the numbers, I am involved in an ongoing project so I have seen the numbers  and my prior post reflects that experience.  We are in the middle of the range but we could have taken a lower bid.  Also, we are gassing and regrassing our approaches to help encourage the ground game.  Finally, if a club has other issues such as drainage, remediating those problems means more money.  If drainage is the issue, I would suggest looking at XGD before risking the greens contours by changing the basic substructure.  It's cheaper too.

[Anthony_Nysse]

$105,000 all in (Roundup included).I have a very high degree of confidence in that figure.


[/quote]

That number is not too bad, honestly. BUT, that was probably a "no till" ultradwaft, where the contours were not touch, not was the drainage or subsurface. The grass and 2" of soil were probably removed and then spriggs added.

[JMEvensky]

$105,000 all in (Roundup included).I have a very high degree of confidence in that figure.

That number is not too bad, honestly. BUT, that was probably a "no till" ultradwaft, where the contours were not touch, not was the drainage or subsurface. The grass and 2" of soil were probably removed and then spriggs added.
[/quote]

To my knowledge,each club in Memphis has done a no-till re-grass.So far,everyone is sticking with Champion.

And,as I said,we ONLY re-grassed--no contours,drainage,approaches,or surrounds were touched.

[Anthony_Nysse]

$105,000 all in (Roundup included).I have a very high degree of confidence in that figure.

That number is not too bad, honestly. BUT, that was probably a "no till" ultradwaft, where the contours were not touch, not was the drainage or subsurface. The grass and 2" of soil were probably removed and then spriggs added.

To my knowledge,each club in Memphis has done a no-till re-grass.So far,everyone is sticking with Champion.

And,as I said,we ONLY re-grassed--no contours,drainage,approaches,or surrounds were touched.
[/quote]

A GREAT decision for the Memphis area...brutally hot there...

[JMEvensky]

$105,000 all in (Roundup included).I have a very high degree of confidence in that figure.

That number is not too bad, honestly. BUT, that was probably a "no till" ultradwaft, where the contours were not touch, not was the drainage or subsurface. The grass and 2" of soil were probably removed and then spriggs added.

To my knowledge,each club in Memphis has done a no-till re-grass.So far,everyone is sticking with Champion.

And,as I said,we ONLY re-grassed--no contours,drainage,approaches,or surrounds were touched.

A GREAT decision for the Memphis area...brutally hot there...
[/quote]

Brutally is an understatement.

It looks like the next bermuda flavor of the month down here will be Mini Verde or Tif Eagle.Champion seems to be losing favor over grain issues.But,you know better than I,there's no perfect bermuda hybrid.Each of them has their plusses and minuses.

[PGertner]

As I am sure you know the majority of the poa´s are annuals, they die, they finish their life cycle, therefore the surfaces become inconsistent during what we could call a micro transition phase.

Huh???

The Poas at PV are perennial. They don't die mid-summer. If they did, there would be no grass there. This is a northern course, not Texas.  

Patrick Gertner
Potowomut GC
East Greenwich, RI

[Michael Taylor]

Does anyone know if there are any courses in Australia where fans are used.

I have never seen one in all my 45 years of golfing Down Under. Golfing in 90% humidity and 44 degrees Centigrade (mad dogs and Scotsmen go out in the midday sun). No fans seen but they would surely be an abomination.

I agree with John Kavanaugh and oh that reminds me......... half a Vegemite sandwich is better than none.

Cheers Colin

10th hole at Avondale GC in Sydney has one Colin.