[John Chilver-Stainer]

Really Michael,
you should know better than to shoot your mouth off like that – you can stick your neck out if you like, but don’t be surprised if you’re decapitated.

Try reading Mark Parsinen’s and Gil Hanses’s notes on the Castle Stuart web site, and you’ll find a feast of reasoning and philosophy that went into their “masterpiece”. The course is a “faux links” if you like, in that it has been totally constructed, as opposed to a lay out on modified “dune land”.

However the golf course is special, not only from the visual or aesthetic aspect, but also from the strategy, playability and agronomics  and is as good a  “links” as you’ll find anywhere. In my eyes a huge improvement on Mark Parsinen's first attempt at Kingsbarnes, which is also no slouch.

Your comments are out of place and lack any attempt at understanding what is now widely acclaimed as one of the best links golf courses in Scotland. 

[Mark Pearce]

John C-S,

Anyone would think Mike had insulted a family friend.  He has expressed his opinion, which I know he is not alone in holding, in a reasoned way.  Feel free to debate it but don't make out like he just stole a baby.

[Mark Chaplin]

John C-S I'm sure the designers hype is the best way to understand and appreciate a course.

Also www.top100golfcourss.com has CS as 16 in Scotland so they rate it highly but not quite one of Scotland's best links courses. Fortunately Scotland has enough genuine links with history to give us a choice over the converted farmland one day (expensive) links experience.

[Melvyn Morrow]

As I posted on Geoff site

My main concern is how does the course play, is it home from home for the international set, if so then we have nothing more than a clone based upon the Hilton worldwide room principal – all rooms should be a ‘ muchness’ to each other and so we do not have a new Scottish course but an international one.

Let’s see how it matures and how the Open fairs, yet while not having played it but see it last June, I must say its certainly is one bonnie course.

As for Kingsbarn, the jury is still out on that one, can’t say it feels Scottish, perhaps it’s the construction process, who knows. But one thing for certain thank God no one has mentioned that gargoyle of a course, you know the one they are still trying to design or is it modify every year since its recent opening a few years ago Yes it’s the one and only The Castle Course, the one designed to , well when they decide I’ll let you know – although my vote is to spend as much money as possible and convert it back to farm land, it will be the wisest thing the Links Trust will have done for that plot of land.

The jury is still out as far as Castle Stuart, has its yet a spirit unseen by the home crowd, we will just have to wait and see.

Melvyn

[jeffwarne]

Niall - Thanks for the tee! I wish everyone in the Highlands nothing but prosperity, but it saddens me that Castle Stuart is on its way to becoming the rate leader in that area... just as Pebble Beach is in the US. At £160 for visitors CS is shockingly overpriced IMO. The kind of hype it will receive as a result of this tournament will only serve to throw fuel on the fire and justify their pricing scheme. We've seen it happen here in the States over and over again... the upward spiral of fees continually escalating the cost of golf. I never thought I would see Scotland, the home of golf, embrace a Country-Club-For-A-Day facility the way they have CS. But, good for CS and good for the Highlands, I guess. I'm just glad I got to spend some significant time there before the Americans moved in to teach the Scots how to make golf profitable. Good luck with that.

Michael,
You do seem to have a consistent opinion about pricing in the UK-often abut private clubs.
At least they remain accessible.(unlike here).


Castle Stuart as a "country club for a day" seems like a steal when compared to many resorts in the US,
Try pricing Doral ) or Kiowah in season

Doesn't their business plan need to deliver economic sustainability for the project?
Certainly such a project isn't an inexpensive undertaking.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Mark, Mark, Michael, and Melvyn

I’m happy to debate
- but am also prepared to decry  provocative statements such as Castle Stuart is “NOT a links course” and “it was created with photography and TV in mind” without going into the other important elements of the golf course such as the strategic variations.

To get the debate off – let’s talk about the 9th Hole.

I found this hole intriguing when playing it last September.
The designers have made a wide fairway with choices from the Tee

They claim the green is reachable down wind but requires a slight draw and catching a small window through the contours .

The middle safe route, on line with the green, disguises a fall off at the landing area that will propel the ball to the right to the bottom of a gulley in the fairway

Well to the left hand side of the fairway and shorter, lies a plateau well guarded by the gulley, this time as rough and sand directly in front of it. Although the left hand route on the plateau is further from the green than the middle route it offers a better approach.

The green is set to the left hand side of the playing corridor.

As mentioned the approach from the left is better as the green is open with enough room in front to allow for a bounce in and an unimpeded run onto the green.

The approach from the right hand side of the fairway, where the ball will lie even if sent down the middle, although closer to the green from the bottom of the gulley, is much more tricky.
A hump guards the right hand side of the green, 
so a well judged bump and run must run over the hump with just enough weight to roll over and stop on the green,
or a wedge from a tight lie to hopefully a hard green which may or may not hold. (depends on the weather)

It will be interesting to see how the pros decide to play this hole, and whether the intentions of the designer to influence the strategical alternatives of the hole are realized.

Or read the course description of Hole 9
http://www.castlestuartgolf.com/course-guide.html

I’m looking forward to your answers to the 9th hole.

[David_Tepper]

Promotional video tour of the course: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2p2SWX5bVg

[Mark Chaplin]

John - sounds great, sadly I'm not in the market to pay £150 to play a brand new course. I was against dual pricing in NZ and Australia and they only way to get rid of this scourge is to refuse to pay trumped up rates just because you are not a local. I wish CS well in the market they chase personally as a traditionalist I'd prefer the history and ambience of RD, Brora or Nairn and save myself a packet in the process.

[James Boon]

John - sounds great, sadly I'm not in the market to pay £150 to play a brand new course. I was against dual pricing in NZ and Australia and they only way to get rid of this scourge is to refuse to pay trumped up rates just because you are not a local. I wish CS well in the market they chase personally as a traditionalist I'd prefer the history and ambience of RD, Brora or Nairn and save myself a packet in the process.

Mark,

Could it be that the £150 is the genuine rate and the locals get a discount? I know Dornoch and Brora are much cheaper and next time I'm up there I'll be playing them ahead of Castle Stuart, but I'm glad I have played CS as it was a great course. But the cost of the construction and the overall set up means £150 is probably closer to the mark for a green fee but I couldn't say for certain?

Cheers,

James

[James Boon]

Michael,

I can certainly understand you not liking the "Country Club for the day" concept in Scotland and all that comes with it, when you can have all that tradition and heritage down the road, that you have probably travelled here for. But most Scots or anyone else in the UK don't get the "Country Club" experience that often so it makes a pleasant change for them? I know I enjoyed it, though I wouldn't always want that level of cost and service, as I think I'm perfectly fine taking my own clubs out of the car 

Look forward to seeing you again at Buda later in the year, especially since you've picked up the "New Mayhugh" tag 

Cheers,

James

[Michael Whitaker]

I think Castle Stuart is a beautiful piece of work. It is stunning. It is a magnificent manufactured facsimile of a links that offers glorious views and stunning visuals.

My issue with CS is not the course. I had an interesting chat with the GM when I visited... or, rather I should say I had an interesting "listen." After our round there were only four golfers in the bar/grill. The GM came over to our table of two and asked us how we liked the course. He then began to offer in surprising detail how proud they were of the concept they had used to create a course that would impress overseas visitors and keep the 18 handicappers coming back. He said they specifically made the fairways exceptionally wide so that no one would lose a ball... that they made the course "look" like a links but kept the playing corridors free of major obstacles to keep guests happy... that they made the greens relatively flat so that "no one would have to suffer a three putt." Bottom line... he said they tried to create a course with as much visual WOW factor as possible while at the same time allowing visitors to shoot their best score in Scotland. He said that was a winning combination that the "real" links courses could not deliver.

Now, all of this is fine and I do not have an issue with creating a beautiful course that plays easy for the masses (maybe there should be more of them than there are), but Jeff Warne hit the nail on the head... do you really want a Doral or Kiawah Island style golf facility in Scotland? He says CS is a "steal" when compared to them. That is my whole point... I don't think Doral or Kiawah belong in Scotland.

IMO... CS is an American style CCFAD facility that tries to justify its excessive prices with car park service attendants, tee gifts, luxurious clubhouse, and beautiful course visuals for your camera. If you like that style of facility then come to the States... we have hundreds of them. For me, it just doesn't fit Scotland.

But, you know... that's just me. I like "Old School" stuff. As my Grandmother always said: "that's why they make chocolate and vanilla."

As I said before... I wish all the prosperity in the world on the Highlands. I just bemoan the change in the Scottish gollfing ideal that Castle Stuart and Trump's place represent.

Damn, I'm turning into Melvyn! The next thing you know I will start playing gutties!!!

[David_Tepper]

Paddy Harrington sure likes the course. He is "almost frothing at the mouth" in his praise of it.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/golf/harrington-lured-back-north-by-love-of-the-links-1.1110484?88956

[Kris Shreiner]

John C-S,

Before you blast Michael for having comments that are "out of place and lack any attempt at understanding..." you better do a little homework. This course was designed for: the visitor, open expanses so as not to beat up the players, offer "infinity views" and vistas to arouse the senses, host a major championship and become another Turnberry or Gleneagles in scale. Marketing has driven this project and while the product looks good, there are some serious repercussions being glossed over by many.
 

CS, on the scale being discussed, has NO CHANCE of financial success without foreign play at high rates. Michael is DEAD ON with the damaging price creep in fees! I'm a meamber at RD. When you come right out of the gate charging almost DOUBLE what the local, top 20 course in the world charges, in a remote area not used to having fees in that stratosphere...it creates problems. Some will argue that it's good for the surrounding courses and business concerns. What it leads to, very quickly I might add, is an unsustainable, overpriced region that the locals can not afford to live in. Doesn't that just sound wonderful ?!

Some awful-looking, oversized housing units, which have some of your lauded principles involved,  just recently was given the go- ahead right next door to RD. It's all about money my friend! The community was not for it....where is the respect and taste? If one claims they are friends of those locals...where's the common sense to present something more complimentary?

This is how it starts...and before you know it, the area is crapped up and changed. It sad, disgusting and totally unnecessary. As an American who loves the Highlands for WHAT IT IS, I'm very concerned about the trending developing up there. It's wrong and greed is the cause. I applaud the others on this site who don't have the blinders on and question what's happening.

I'm all for responsible, intelligent development. Profit at any price, destroying the very things that make a region special and unique, is another matter entirely.

Cheers,
Kris

[Melvyn Morrow]

My worst fear is to see courses on our soil designed for the overseas market and have the facking nerve to call it a Scottish course. This course has been designed for others and like The Castle Course it’s there for cashing in on Scottish Golf.

You want International courses then do search the world, but keep them out of Scotland. It corrupts our game our traditions and ultimately will reflect in less visitors from overseas because why travel over here when you have ample choice of these courses on your own door step.

Better than a links course but its not a links course, just listen to the bullshit already being vomited upon the unsuspecting visitor. Soon the home players may look to this attitude and realise that we do not need these course, do not need to pay for these courses and certainly do not want owners or for that matter designers if all they can do is produce a Hilton Hotel Room wherever they go.

The very thought of perhaps losing Moray in favour of Castle Stuart, is now starting to concern me, hell we do not play golf this way not in this country. We do not need easy, we do not need help , we certainly do not need to be told which club to use or what the distance is because we know  how to play the game. Our eyes tell us all we need to know, our senses work as one with the environment with our brain and bodies we enjoy the challenge our golf provides.

It sounds as if CS is intending to be more overseas friendly than Royal Dornoch, leaving little room for the native Scot, who actually may not want to play upon such a compromise of a courses as Castle Stuart – A Links course indeed.

Yet I had high hopes subject to them proving me wrong, alas they have done the very thing that will hurt our game – offering overseas visitors a taste of their own courses back home, which bodes well for the future of the course , like coals to Newcastle, a  sensible business approach , I think not.

This is Manufactured Golf that imitates the Scottish Game with the sole purpose of getting money out of the likes of you guys. Let’s hope the old saying is right ‘you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all the people all of the time.

Let’s also hope their mirror shatters soon so others see them for what they are, crafty purveyors of fake.

Yet I do not expect many will notice as they have already been sold down the path of financial slavery

How disappointing

Melvyn 

PS  Michael, still a little way to go before you really sound like me.

[Mark Chaplin]

Melvyn whilst I may not lime the model it doesn't harm Scotland or it's courses. The CCFAD model drives service and reminds member clubs that you have to give good friendly service and look after your guests. There will be locals earning £50 a round caddying for visitors, locals working in the clubhouse and accommodation and local suppliers getting a piece of the action. In an area of low incomes that will be much appreciated.

[David_Tepper]

Almost all the Scots I have met in the Highlands over the past 2 years, who have actually played the course, think very highly of the course and are glad it is there.

[David_Tepper]

Brian -

By all means get to Dornoch soon, but I would not worry too much about the blighting of the landscape.

DT

[David_Tepper]

"Castle Stuart is way above my expectations," says Paddy Harrington, "There are so many ways to play the same holes."

http://sport.scotsman.com/golf/Castle-Stuart-is-39way-above.6796622.jp

[Melvyn Morrow]

David

You may not realise that being Scottish allows us the independence of free thought, so we make up our own minds.

As for the course if it end up as an international course which I much expected it will be mainly the preserve of the overseas golfer although you will I suspect get a few local members.

My initial opinion being that I liked the course although not keen on some of the fake finishes, yet the GM’s comments reported by Michael seems to intimate that they are playing the market, certainly the overseas market, selling something that is not true home grown golf, albeit they are on Scottish soil. Even their attitude to a links course does not do justice to other real links courses. They must be targeting Royal Dornoch as their template which many a Scots gives a wide berth.

It seems that gone are the days when a new clubs are set up by the locals, who produce a good course thus attracting many to visit and play their course. Today we (apparently) build super courses which are aimed at the overseas visitor caring not it seems about building up a local club network. They jump in with silly Green Fees which many locals and average golfer refuse to pay preferring to be Members. Perhaps that’s the main difference many of our golfers prefer to be Members of a Club while enjoying tasting others as and when the opportunity arises (subject to actual Green Fees).

Many of our 600 odd courses have real identities, mainly being the result of interaction between golfers who understood the game and the club scene producing minor changes rather than complete rebuilds over the years.  Our club system gives the courses the chance to mature and develop into some of the most enjoyable and challenging courses you will ever have the pleasure to play upon.

Castle Stuart, The Castle and other new courses are thrown into the deep end and are expected to start bringing in the punters from day one to try to offset the heavy design and construction burden. In other words they are there just to make money and while doing so if they can give some sort of pleasure back to the golfer, that a bonus because they run a business not a golf Club.

So, with an understand towards the game many of us may have a different approach to others, no big deal and yes perhaps we are more careful with our money preferring to get value for money rather than an expensive shock or thrill that in the end offers us not that much more. So some locals may love it, like it, hate it, but in the end will it survive by local subscription or from the overseas visitors. Perhaps next time in St Andrews ask the locals how many of them like the R&A and then which clubs are they associated with, it may surprise you.

I really hope my fears have not been justified, but I think the dye is cast and we will not have a true Scottish course on our shore but another bloody international mix pretending to be a traditional Scottish Course.

Melvyn   

[Niall C]

Bryan,

Haven't got a clue on number of rounds but I would imagine that they will have picked up since the Scottish Open was announced and they will certainly pick up once its played.

John C-S,

Mike does have a point in that they went out their way to create vistas and visual backdrops. Its a very important element of a lot of the holes, as is the deliberate decision to section a lot of the holes off from one another. That has nothing to do with strategy. One of my issues with the course is that quite a lot of the holes don't really offer any startegy in that it makes not one hoot of difference whether you are right, left or middle on a exceptionally wide fairway because you are still left with more or less the same shot for the next. I'm thinking of the par 5's and some of the par 4's. Of the holes that hold real interest, and the 9th is one but perhaps not the best, they have more of a modern parkland design in the sense of the creation of landing areas and carry to greens. With regards to the 9th, I really don't see that anyone is likely to get that green unless they are really lucky and very long. Whether you go left or right with the tee shot you are looking at landing the ball on the green with the approach. Nice enough hole but not particularly linksy or strategic.

With regards to Mikes complaint that the whole set up is foreign to what is Scottish golf, I agree, and while a couple of years ago I would have been against it and the likes of KB and Renaissance etc, I've slowly come to the conclusion that the Scottish way of doing things, whatever that is, is hardly going to be lost because of a couple of developments run on forwign principles.

Niall

[Michael Whitaker]

Almost all the Scots I have met in the Highlands over the past 2 years, who have actually played the course, think very highly of the course and are glad it is there.

David - I am not disputing that the course is a good one or that golfers will have fun playing it. I had fun. It was designed for fun. If I could play it on occasion for 40 or 50 quid I might think it a fine novelty and diversion for the area. But, if it is roaringly successful you WILL see a change in the way RD and the other courses in the area do business. And, once again, the cost of golf will escalate on the backs of the visitor... then fewer will visit... then the non-elite courses (like Moray) will suffer even more. There is only so much visitor money available during any one golfing season. If CS sucks a big chunk out of the market it has to come out of someone else's pocket.

Jonathan Cummings mentions above that he is taking a group to Castle Stuart. I'd be interested to know where they would be playing if CS were not on their itinerary. Whatever course they are leaving off is losing Jonathan's revenue and that can't be offset by locals.

Niall - What has made golf in the UK work so well for so long is that nearly every course was created to serve its local market, with visitor play used as a revenue supplement to keep local costs as low as possible. But, first and foremost the courses were created for local players. CS is exactly the opposite. It was created for outside visitors, with locals being offered discounted green fees to create a revenue stream that allows the club to stay open until the visitor business increases to a sustainable level. This is pure speculation on my part, but once they don't need the locals anymore it would not surprise me to see the reduced rates fade away... or, at least the number of tee times made available to locals reduced. CS is not going to sell a tee time to a local fourball for 200 quid when they can sell the same tee time to a group of visitors for 640. Enjoy it while you can.

What has happened to the reduced rates for locals at Kingsbarns? If you have a Links Trust Yearly Ticket you can play for £25 and bring (wow) up to six guests a year at (wow) a discount of 15% off the £185 green fee! But, the discounts that used to be available to the general local golfer seem to be gone. Its the price of success... American style.

[Niall C]

Mike

I can't answer for Jonathon but I suspect that his group wouldn't even have been going to the highlands if it wasn't for CS so in that respect the other local courses would have got no beenefit.

Niall

[RJ_Daley]

Melvyn, Kris, Mike, please keep up that good fight.  This reminds me of the Walmartization of small town America's main street.  A lot of fools gold BS about bringing a few low pay jobs to the area, but the character and quality of the local culture suffers.  I'm sure the local members of area clubs can determine their own expectations of service at their clubs, or how to treat their guests.  50pounds a loop for a few caddies isn't worth the overall decline of the local culture and traditions, along with the altered balance of the local economy to survive and evolve on the will of its own native people's decisions, not American corporate CCFAD models, IMHO, of course.

[Michael Whitaker]

Niall - One last comment and then I am going to leave this alone. I think the CS course is fine for what it is. It is not a true links course... but, that is OK. It is what it is... and,  it is beautiful, fun to play, and can be quite a boost to one's ego. I do not like the Castle Stuart business model. If Castle Stuart were a private club with a membership that could sustain it I would be saying "more power to them." If as a private club they occasionally opened their door to visitors at exorbitant prices I would then say, "caveat emptor." I'm just upset they are being held up to high regard as something that they are not. Most American visitors do not know any better and they will definitely be impressed with the views and service. For a once in a lifetime visitor that's okay. But, it WILL affect the locals negatively... they just don't know it yet.

Ask the folks who use to live on Kiawah Island or Hilton Head how much they love the big beautiful CCFAD and resort courses in their area. They can't afford to play them... and, they can't afford to live there anymore because increased property taxes forced them to move.

It's the American way:  the rich get richer... the poor get poorer.

[Michael Whitaker]

I can't answer for Jonathon but I suspect that his group wouldn't even have been going to the highlands if it wasn't for CS

Naill - It's coming out of someone's pocket:  Carnoustie, Prestwick, Royal Aberdeen, Cruden Bay... someone's. And, at 160 quid there is less left over for the pubs and restaurants.

I know you guys find it hard to believe, but there is NOT an unlimited amount of money in the average American's pocket. Most American's who visit Scotland do so ONCE in their entire lifetime, and save for years to do so. Once they make the decision to cough up 160 and visit CS some other course (and area of the country) is getting cut off the trip.

Like my good friend Mr. Daley says... ask the folks who owned local shops in the small towns surrounding a Wal-Mart how much they benefited from all the customer traffic brought into the area. Fool's Gold indeed!

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