[David_Tepper]

"Are artisan members a UK phenomenon or an English phenomenon?  I have not seen them in Scotland, Wales, or N I.."

Dub O'Neil -

A full list of all the clubs in the Artisans' Golf Association is available at the Association's website (see link in my first post above).

While I am not an expert on British geography, to my eye it appears all the artisan clubs are in England.

DT   

[Sean_A]

John K - tell me how many local "working" people get to play at Merion, Cypress Point, Chicago Golf or National Golf Links on a regular basis?

In the UK the local butcher, sparky or truck driver maybe a member of a club with access to courses such as Royal St Georges, Rye, Walton Heath, Swinley Forest and many more great tracks.

Artisans are not inferior members but members of their own club with access to a great course out of peak hours for a minimal annual sum. Part of the deal is usually an hour or so a month divoting or working on the course. Some of the longest waiting lists to join clubs in the UK are at artisan clubs.

Mark,

I have a strict policy of never asking a man what he does for a living.  I find it rude and boring so I have no idea if members are "working people" or not.  I find your caste system of defining a man as disgusting. What is most strange is that I care far more who plays on my course than who enters my clubhouse.  If I were to be a snob I could see allowing the man who paints my barn to seek comfort inside from a passing storm, but for him to ride my horse on a sunny day when he could be painting only seems to promote rot.  This is why I would never as a man who wants to borrow my horse if he can paint.

JakaB

You are one strange duck.  In all my experience of artisans and people speaking of them you are the only one who has stated he against the concept.  Perahps if you think of artisans as just another club using a course such as it is done on some of the public courses in Scotland the idea would be easier (why it needs to be easier is a great mystery) to swallow.  Besides, I recall you were gonna put up or shut about British golf.  See the quote below.

Burnham used to have an artisans club which as Chappers relates about other such clubs, had some very good golfers.  The main club disbanded the artisans many years ago and invited them to become full members of the club.

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Gradually the working staff of the Club was expanded and in 1882 the Dunbar Castle Golf Club was founded. Resembling an artisans’ club, the DCGC was strictly for Dunbar residenters who were unable to afford the main Dunbar Club’s fees or to survive the notorious black-ball methods. The Castle Club had an entirely separate constitution but, somewhat to the irritation of the “senior club” soon began to produce the stronger players, very often from the caddie ranks. The Castle Club prospers to this day but by now its members are required to be members of the main Club.

The Dirleton Castle club play at Gullane and the Aberlady artisans at Kilspindie.

There are Irish artisan clubs.

John it would be naive to think there isn't a caste system operating on your side of the pond. $10k+ subs at some clubs quickly exclude 90% of the population from the club.

[Tony_Muldoon]

The Artisan Club is now somewhat out moded relic. Charming and part of the history of Golf but I can’t see more than a handful surviving.  They survive at only a few , mostly  old clubs ,where the population has grown up around the course making them highly desirable areas to live. If they continue to police the live within x miles of the club then only people who can afford to pay full dues will qualify.  So the recent member of artisans clubs  I’ve met include, Software consultants, Surgeons etc.  These folk choose to join Artisans Sections.

The no of Artisans Clubs has drastically fallen in the last 40 years (By 2/3rd?) and I know of several cases where offering full membership of the club has  been the way of disbanding them.

[David_Tepper]

"The no of Artisans Clubs has drastically fallen in the last 40 years (By 2/3rd?)"

Tony Muldoon -

There are currently 70 member clubs of the AGA, which sounds like a pretty healthy number to me. Do you really think there might have been over 200 artisan clubs 40 years ago? 

DT

[Mike Benham]

I know of two West Coast clubs that have artisan members with skills and knowledge in areas very specific to the clubs mission, and in one case, the expertise was totally ignored for a decade or two.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I know of two West Coast clubs that have artisan members with skills and knowledge in areas very specific to the clubs mission, and in one case, the expertise was totally ignored for a decade or two.

SO JK would you care to comment on this?


You will of course note that I stuck to my word and made no comment when you were again slagging off a set of countries you know nothing about. Just sayin.

[Tony_Muldoon]

"The no of Artisans Clubs has drastically fallen in the last 40 years (By 2/3rd?)"

Tony Muldoon -

There are currently 70 member clubs of the AGA, which sounds like a pretty healthy number to me. Do you really think there might have been over 200 artisan clubs 40 years ago? 

DT

David I Can't find my copy of No Jacket Required which discussed Artisan clubs. Perhaps someone else has one.

From Memory, Taylor and Hawtree set up the association in the early 20’s which suggests there must have already been a number of them.  They also pushed for municipal courses as a way of bringing more people into golf.  My recollection is that the golden period was post WW11 but by the late 60’s their boom was over. The new clubs developed in the 70’s onwards catered mainly for non traditional members rather than expanded the role of Artisans.   Am pretty certain at the height there were a lot more than 200 artisan clubs.

[John Kavanaugh]

I know of two West Coast clubs that have artisan members with skills and knowledge in areas very specific to the clubs mission, and in one case, the expertise was totally ignored for a decade or two.

SO JK would you care to comment on this?


You will of course note that I stuck to my word and made no comment when you were again slagging off a set of countries you know nothing about. Just sayin.

I am happy to comment that Mike proves my point that many American clubs have artisan members. The difference is that they are allowed in the precious clubhouse. I have had a few of these myself over the years. Funny thing, I did lose one once after I beat a silly twit of a board member in the club championship. They simply sent me a bill for full dues the next year.  For this reason I no longer accept memberships for trade of skill.  It really is degrading in a way.

[Scott Warren]

The obvious point you're missing, John, is that English artisans are members of their own club.

It is not uncommon for non members to be denied access to a private clubhouse, anywhere in the world.

The two clubs share the course. What part of that very simple scenario are you struggling to grasp?

[Mark Chaplin]

I believe in Scotland as many as 3 or 4 clubs can share the same course.

The best British quirk has got to be London Scottish and Wimbledon Common who share the same course but have different clubhouses on different parts of the property. The 1st at London Scottish is the 8th at Wimbledon Common, golfers also have to wear a red outer garment in order for other common users to identify the players!!

[John Kavanaugh]

The obvious point you're missing, John, is that English artisans are members of their own club.

It is not uncommon for non members to be denied access to a private clubhouse, anywhere in the world.

The two clubs share the course. What part of that very simple scenario are you struggling to grasp?

What I don't understand is why anyone would allow a member to play the course and then not enter the clubhouse.  I don't think you guys get the difference between a member and a revenue source. Look, it's the 4th of July weekend and I'm tired of fighting you guys. We never won the right to tell you how to live in your country, so have at keeping your working class in their place.  Congrats.

[Tony_Muldoon]

John obvioulsly knows all about every US course and all its clubs including the two Mike aluded too without actually naming!  Doesn't surprise me as it appears he also knows all about every UK club as well.

I'm a member of a Scottish Club that shares the course with 3 other clubs, there are two clubhouses.  I've been told the one accross the road has more of the Capitals lawyers etc.  One of the others is only for people who live in the town and the fourth is for ladies only.  I know my place and I'm more than content.

[Mark Pearce]

Guys,

I honestly don't know why anyone bothers debating with JK.  Your time would be far better spent looking up the definition of an internet troll.

[Scott Warren]

John,

It isn't my country.

The artisan members are allowed access to the clubhouse ifof the club they belong to.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Whose debating?

It may look like shooting fish in a barrel but really it's watching a troll repeated shooting himself in the foot both feet.

(Can't help wondering what Jakka makes of Bubba's comments this weekend.  Note to self. Stop it)

[John Kavanaugh]

Multiple clubhouses = caste system. Sorry.

[Kalen Braley]

I hate to admit this...but I really have to agree with J/K on this one.

All this stuff reminds me of the pre-civil rights era where everything was "separate but equal".

A bus for coloreds, and a bus for whites
Drinking fountains for coloreds and fountains for whites.
Schools for coloreds and schools for whites.
Neighborhoods for coloreds and neighborhoods for whites.

"Separate but equal".       

I guess those coloreds should have "known their place and been content" with what they had.

[Mark Chaplin]

Kalen having checked your top 25 played either you didn't enjoy your UK golf experiences or you haven't been to these shores either so have no idea how a British club runs.

Brian - Different clubhouses mean different clubs, although I believe Ballybunion used to have a members clubhouse and a visitors clubhouse.

[Sean_A]

Wow, some attitudes on this thread have me perplexed. Let me get this straight.  Because originally a bunch of well to do guys allowed the less fortunate (meaning folks who didn't have the means to join a club even if there were no class barriers) to act as servants of the main club in exchange for cheap golf and and the formation of their own club - that this is somehow bad.  I can buy that class barriers are not a desirable set of mores, but I can't buy that working around those mores to the benefit of those born on the wrong side of the tracks is bad.  What, did you want the main the club to have a scholarship system in place whereby folks could be a member of the main club without paying?  Eventually you folks will understand that equality is a legal, not an economic term.  Barriers will and do exist everywhere whether intentionally or not.  Shit, every sort of golf club has its ruling elite based mainly on connections and/or handicap and we all know it.  So what - get over it. 

Of course today some artisan clubs are packed with smart professional people who would rather pick weeds for a few hours a month and be compensated for their efforts with cheap access to what is often times very good golf than pay full whack for the priveledge of walking through a set of doors - very clever if you ask me.  Sure, the sense of noblesse oblige on the part of the main club has now been largely eliminated, but some artisans benefit in that they would not be able to play or perhaps play such a high quality course.  I would join an artisan club in a heartbeat, but then I don't care what others think concerning equality, personal pride and class barriers.     

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

Sean makes a very good case from a purely logical point of view; however there is little logic in the vaguaries of the British class system.

Undoubtedly, for all the advantages they may offer less affluent local golfers as regards access to a good course, separate artisan clubs within the grounds of a members club are an anachronism of Victorian and Edwardian class division. It is unthinkable that such a club could be established today without attracting almost universal derision.

I am put in mind of an old episode of Midsomer Murders based around a golf club with just such an Artisan's club. http://www.midsomermurders.org/dogleg.htm

How accurate a picture of life at a smart Home Counties golf club this drama painted I do not know but it didn't half feed the predjudices of a South Manchester suburbanite!

I am thankful to belong to a predominantly blue-collar club which has absolutely no restrictions on eligibility for full membership other than being able to stump up seventy five quid a month.

My thoughts in starting this thread were more about doing work for the club in lieu of payment of the subscription rather than a separate club for serfs.  As I get older however, I might want to have someone to look down on and so think that an artisan club would be a good idea!

 

[Scott Warren]

Funny, someone might need to point out to me how less affluent locals gain membership to Merion, Royal Melbourne, Morfontaine, San Francisco GC etc.

The British class system has its issues, IMO, as an outsider who got to view certain parts of it from close quarters, but the Artisan golfclub scheme isn't one of those issues.

The only difference between the main club/artisan model and for instance Oakmont and the muni to its north is that under the artisan model the less affluent members get to play as good a course as those who are loaded or born into the fast lane.

It's a fairly universal aspect of golf that the very best courses belong to clubs populated by wealthier folks, with exceptions of public courses and more across-the-board clubs.

Even in Australia, one of the most egalitarian countries of them all, you're stumping up between $14k and $30k to join one of the top clubs and that is beyond most people's means.

Kalen: As with the Redan threads, it's enviable the level of certainty profound ignorance allows you to arrive at.

[Mark Chaplin]

Other than the policeman the first person Scott played with at Royal Cinque Ports was the fireman and he was then set up to play with the lawyer, lighting designer and grain salesman. As I have always said the criteria for membership at RCP is roughly as follows; you are first and foremost good company, you respect the game and the traditions of the club, finally you can get around the course in a competent manner without undue delay.

Scott one thing with our system is cash is not king and as I alluded to in an earlier post I cannot imagine the mix of members referred to above being the standard set up at the finest clubs in the USA.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen: As with the Redan threads, it's enviable the level of certainty profound ignorance allows you to arrive at.

Scott,

I must admit, I am intrigued by this comment. 

But if you are referring to my comments on a certain hole in that competition, my only point was to express that it was supposed to be a "redan hole" competition. Not a "which hole is the coolest looking that kind of resembles a redan"

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