[Jeff_Brauer]

http://topgolf.com/allen/pricing/

Went there tonight for my second time.  First was just to go. This time, a potential client is interested in a similar concept, but more golf oriented.  Frankly, I advised him against.  I love Top golf, and it got us into some intersting discussions.


I looked around at every combination of sexes, races, ages, etc. and saw nothing but perhaps the best entree to golf ever.  Some of our group - country club members - hate the idea of cut offs, date night, hooping and hollering, upscale food, etc.  Won't go again.  One called it "Excuse to drink beer".  But, most were won over by the end of the night.  It is just a lot of fun, even if it really only uses golf as a takeoff point for a social experience.

We have talked about bifurication of tournament ball vs amateur ball and even TPC courses at 7500 yards vs amateur courses up to 1000 yards less.  When I heard the club members talk about keeping their club the same at all costs, it struck me that maybe golf facilities themselves need to split in two directions.  Some stay as traditional golf, and others go the "extreme golf" route, introducing all sorts of non golf items in the mix to attract another crowd altogether.

What do you think?

For insance, one thing TopGolf does is put a chip in the ball to register it to the player.  Then, you aim for targets based on distance and how close you hit to the center of the target (like an electronic, ground level dart board).  Everyone races back to the screen to see how many points their shot got.  IT sort of puts the video game/computer element into golf, and it could be incorprated into a game on a real course, somehow, although I am not quite sure how.

Anyway, it was interesting to discuss and typical - we have to keep golf the same as its always been, but it may die vs. "what if golf was more like extreme sports" and could maybe survive.  Participatoin has been flat for a decade or two.  Maybe things have just changed enough that its time to think further outside the box and split our courss into traditional and extreme golf versions??

[Sam Morrow]

I've never been to Top Golf, heard it's fun. Aren't they opening a second Metroplex location? What ever happened to Texas Indoor Golf right across the highway from Grapevine Mills?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sam,

I went to the Dallas location, but have it on my list to go see the new one in Allen. I suspect they learned a few things with the first ones.  For one, the miniature golf course, with its Trumpesque waterfall and the batting cages were about 10% full, while there was an astounding 20 minute wait to get a tee space.

Double deck, 60 stations total, average of 3+ people per station.  Full nearly all day.  So, 200 golfers per hour.  Games $6 each, and take half an hour.  $36 an hour times 60 stations x 12 hour days on weekends.  That's $25K per day on weekends, and maybe half or less on five weekdays, or close to $100K per week, times say 40 weeks in DFW.   And that doesn't count F and B.  Construction debt might equal a full golf course, though!  Expenses probably a little less.

Nice business, and nice entree to golf.  A shining star, I think, although some would say its just an upscale version of the old double deck lighted driving ranges, and the fad might soon pass.  Time will tell.

The indoor range went out of biz.  I think it featured video, like playing shots into screesn showing Pebble Beach, etc.

I really think the non golf element - the friendly competition, the scoring and instant feedback, the F and B, the party atmosphere are what sells it and sets it apart.  Playing PB on a video screen isn't quite as satisfying as the competition of playing your buddy and beating him.

The other part is the setup - these dartboard greens are at 25, 50, 125, 160, 180 and goal posts at 250 for your drive target.  Beginners can choose to hit at the 25 or 50 yard targets all day long and come away with a few points for their team on a regular basis.  The better golfers can try to rack up bigger point totals by aiming for the more distant greens, but with a greater chance of getting zero points, so everyone can chip in, not unlike a scramble.  Instead of multiple tees to control length, its multiple targets.

Just a lot of fun, and they do have a separated area for the dedicated practice guys.  I saw it was full too, but was only about four players wide. 

[Sam Morrow]

Come on now, I played Trump Philly yesterday morning and there weren't any waterfalls.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sam,

Well then you can experience them when you get back to DFW.  We can go together!

[Sam Morrow]

Sam,

Well then you can experience them when you get back to DFW.  We can go together!

I am so down for that. Can we get Beene to go with us?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Absolutely.  Or, we can also go play some real golf somewhere too.

[Sam Morrow]

Absolutely.  Or, we can also go play some real golf somewhere too.

We could go play Vaquero, tell everyone on the site and then they can bitch about Fazio.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Jeff I don't think this idea is so "extreme." Any members who say something is just an excuse to drink alcohol needs to look in the mirror for a while. I've seen club members blow through 5 kegs (like 80-90 guys) in a single night. Heard stories of guys having to drive tractors onto the golf course to pull carts out of ponds, streams, and I even heard one story where they had to rent a forklift in order to get a cart off top of some boulder, God only knows how the cart got there. Golfers who chastise people for drinking need to listen to themselves more. I'd say that in total consumption per person, golfers drink more than any other sports group; shoot, I'd say golfers drink more than pool and poker players....well, enough of that little rant.

I like this idea. It gets people into the game, its cheap, doesn't consume a lot of time, and it looks like a lot of fun. Golf businesses must simply rethink their models. I fully understand what guys go through these days and know how it was years back as well. I am the youngest of 6 kids and my dad used to play all the time while we were growing up, probably 3-4 full rounds per week, he simply had more time, we didn't have as many activities to go to as some kids nowadays do. However, I don't have the ability to go play as much as he does; I still make it to the course often, but usually its a basket or two of balls or maybe a quick 9. If I play 18 holes 4 times a month I feel fortunate; when I was single, if I didn't play 4 times a WEEK I was fighting mad. So, clubs and courses need to rethink something. If it means going to putt-putt courses at the club, or a lighted driving range with a point scoring system like this, or doing something like PowerPlay Golf once a week, or who knows what, that's what you need to do. A major problem in the golf industry, the same one that affected the American Automakers, is that they are so resistant to change and reinventing themselves that they are choking themselves to death with their inaction.

[Matt Day]

Went to a top golf range in Surrey twice in 3 weeks for research purposes whilst on holiday. Both times I went with my daughter, first time it was a blast, second time the novelty had worn off a bit and we didnt stay as long. I can see the attraction though, especially for kids as they get their name on the leaderboard in the clubhouse

The main issue was the quality of the golf balls and the firmness of the outfield. Beccuse the balls are chipped and therefore very expensive they had kept some of them way too long, some were as smooth as a ping pong ball. The outfield was rock hard which meant that you could get it into the 200 yard target by hitting it 150 bouncing it in

[Tony_Muldoon]

They started near Watford North of London about 10 years ago and then opened a second one in Chigwell where I used to have an office, so I've been a no of times.
It seems to me that their target audience is not golfers but kids who treat it as a night out ,an alternative to Bowling, who go maybe 3x pa.  One morning my daughter told me she'd been with friends and I haven't got her to a range since she was 8 when  it was part of a hotel complex we stayed in.


So the rock hard outfields and shiny balls frustrate the better golfer but delight the casual visitor. I must know 20 kids with cards and I think one of them has now progressed to a Par 3 course. It is useful for that stage where you're still a novice but want some fun. This is good news for golf.  I don’t see them taking golf revenues, they’re expanding the potential no of golfers.

Haven’t been in 3 years but then I'm not really their audience.

(Note if you're reading this TopGolf YOu might tempt me back with some friends, midweek when its cold,if you drop the ball prices on special offer.  That way I won't take times away from your target audience in Summer).

[PCCraig]

Jeff:

I've been to the Top Golf outside of Chicago, near O'Hare, and would say it's pretty fun. I went there with a larger group that rented out one end of the range where they have TV's, a bar, pool tables, and 3 or 4 hitting bays with garage-type doors that open up to the range. I was there on a cold winter Sunday and the rest of the facility was packed. It's a fun idea and it really gets non-golfers involved.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yes, members do drink.  Its funny that they think that somehow their drinking and golfing is superior to others drinking and golfing, mostly because they wear nicer clothes with logos.

I still ask the question, if Top Golf is so good at getting non golfers involved and interested, what does it mean for golf?  Is it just a date night niche?  Is there some way to take than kind of golf over to real golf courses and expand our golfing base, which has been stagnant for a decade?

[C. Squier]

Top Golf is the Guitar Hero of golf....real guitarists laugh at the "silly" game, but the game itself is selling more real guitars after gamers get a taste of playing the plastic "instrument".

I've been to the Chicago Top Golf once and thought it was mildly entertaining, but haven't been back since.  I'd rather have the real thing.  However, if I were beginning golfer it would probably be a lot more fun than just blindly whacking away at range balls.  Blinking lights and scoreboards are always captivating. 

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Yes, members do drink.  Its funny that they think that somehow their drinking and golfing is superior to others drinking and golfing, mostly because they wear nicer clothes with logos.

I still ask the question, if Top Golf is so good at getting non golfers involved and interested, what does it mean for golf?  Is it just a date night niche?  Is there some way to take than kind of golf over to real golf courses and expand our golfing base, which has been stagnant for a decade?

If clubs, old style courses can take up some kind of model like this, I think they can get people into the game. But the old 18 hole model is going away. They need to give people the chance to play a game like this on the range, or a fun, interesting putt-putt course, 3 and 6 hole loops that people can play quickly, and for the love of all things speed up the pace of play on the course. But no one really goes about getting people out to the course. Nothing to make it more fun or anything else. Just plain and simple, plop down your coin for 18 holes and if you don't like that, oh well. That's a poor model and people need to recognize that. Course operators need to find ways to make golf more fun, quicker and more available.

The Top Golf model, by itself, won't get people to the courses, I don't think. But if a course were to work this into their in-house range, I certainly think they could bring in a lot more business that way. Do something like score X points and get a round of golf for only cart fee, or pay for X number of games on the range and get a round for cart fee, I could go on. But something needs to evolve in the golf business, or it will continue to lose play.

[Tim Leahy]

Seems like it would be great for bad weather, either too hot or too cold.

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