Pebble's 12th

« **on:** May 08, 2003, 01:33:43 PM »

Several folks whose opinions I respect dislike this hole. Why? If available, please post pics to support your opinion.

Regards,

Mike

« **Reply #1 on:** May 08, 2003, 02:18:48 PM »

Don't know which side of the respect curve I am on but I don't think it is that bad of a hole.

It is a very difficult par if the hole location is left but I believe the dislike is that at 200 yards, the longest par-3 on the course, it is difficult to attack the pin with the huge bunker, plus the fact that the back of the green is somewhat elevated so that a shot to the right side of the green and long goes over the edge.

The play is the front right of the green, have a long lag putt and get out of town. Not many options ...

« **Reply #2 on:** May 08, 2003, 02:33:03 PM »

All those years I watched it on tv it looked like a so so hole. After knowing it intimately I would say it is one of the most demanding shots to get close anywhere. There are options but mostly bailouts.

« **Reply #3 on:** May 08, 2003, 06:05:00 PM »

Shivas- The hole fits perfectly between 11 green and 13 tee. WHy do you say it don't fit? The left side is similar to the left side of 17 except for being narrower with no backstop. The distance is slightly longer but downhill. And finally the wind usually is a subtle or hidden factor on both.

Please tell me whats so wrong?

« **Reply #4 on:** May 08, 2003, 06:05:17 PM »

Tom Kite likes the hole a lot.

« **Reply #5 on:** May 08, 2003, 06:23:58 PM »

The green complex has changed/shrunk such a huge amount that it is very limiting as to how the hole can play. The golfer has to hit it high to hold the rock hard green but is that really what Egan wanted for such a windy site?

Mike, can you imagine a bigger, modified Redan green with the option to hit it lower and have the ball chase to some of the back left locations? I can and it would certainly give the golfer more options to consider.

As it is now, the 12th may be solid but it's too one dimensional to hold much interest/merit.

Cheers,

« **Reply #6 on:** May 08, 2003, 07:01:47 PM »

It is a very demanding shot from the back tees. I really think when the wind is quartering from behind you can only play to the right side. I do like the idea of moving the green slighly so a redan could be made.

« **Reply #7 on:** May 08, 2003, 09:41:01 PM »

I do remember some geezer/hacker amateur bumping and running a 5-wood onto the green through the opening on the right during the ATT a couple of years ago, but, I must agree with Ran on this one. You could make a great "redan" there without moving huge amounts of earth and without changing the feng shui of the course. Of course, this might make Dan Kelly's "redan" 18th green concept redundant......

« **Reply #8 on:** May 08, 2003, 11:10:06 PM »

Here's the play to a left pin at 12: Fire at the left edge of the front right bunker, and watch your ball kick left off the bunker shoulder, roll onto the green and curl to the flag. That's the shot my wife pulled off earlier this week -- by accident, I'm pretty sure -- though, unfortunately, she missed the 10-foot birdie putt.

« **Reply #9 on:** May 09, 2003, 05:07:39 AM »

You guys are the biggest bunch of redan loving bastards I have ever met....As great as the two or three true redan greens in this country may be....what basis do you have to think it is the answer to every greensite that may not fit your taste....Quasssi-motor didn't like the first green at Pinehurst#2 because his wife 7 putted...and she's a nine...make that a redan. RickS hates the Spyglass forth...make that a redan...The road hole bunker has become too difficult...make that a redan.....You can't bitch about the lengthening of classic venues on one side of your mouth while redaning the world out of the other...its disturbing.

« **Reply #10 on:** May 09, 2003, 06:38:05 AM »

I can see the criticism about the smallness/shrunkeness of the target, and the somewhat limited options but as Rick told us, that rightside bunker/mound just short and right of the fairgreen, is where the prudent option (other than attacking the flag) exists. While it's often considered a lucky shot playing to that spot it is really the safest option for those who lack the confidence to float a 200 yarder.
Another subtletie is that the dominate wind direction is into your face. (not always just mostly) which always helped me.

I find that the hole holds some sort of spiritual/logistical/Karmical placement in the golfing round that is Pebble. It's the turn into home, which often involves wind change and is at that point in a round that is often moment defining or game altering last third. Whether you're reflecting on the previous holes or anxiously anticipating the remaining, the fact that it causes an uncomfortable feel for the golfer does fit with the demands of the course and is and of itself part of the charm and challenge. Just My O

The only other question I have is how many par 3's really have that many options?

« **Reply #11 on:** May 09, 2003, 06:47:25 AM »

I just looked at the pics on Pebble's web-site to refresh my memory. I was astonished at how clean the bunker edges were. When I was there in Sept. 2001 they were very shaggy and looked wonderful. Are the pics for marketing purposes or are the bunkers that clean? Say it ain't so.

Mike

« **Reply #12 on:** May 09, 2003, 07:40:02 AM »

Dave,
How did you do that picture? Is that a feature of this site?

« **Reply #13 on:** May 09, 2003, 08:00:36 AM »

Quote

Mike, can you imagine a bigger, modified Redan green with the option to hit it lower and have the ball chase to some of the back left locations? I can and it would certainly give the golfer more options to consider.
Cheers,

Yes, I can imagine a Redan green for 12 and it would be fabulous. I think you would have to consider that most of Pebble's greens are one dimensional.

« **Reply #14 on:** May 09, 2003, 08:05:19 AM »

Quote

   _____________________
   \ ^ /
   \ ^ /
   death \ ^ / deep dropoff
   \ ^ /
   \______O_______/
   ^
   / \

Shivas - your drawing looks like one of those new fangled Scotty Cameron putters ... with the pussy covers ... did you have nightmares last night about you and Huckaby's discussion ...

Btw, I think the 18th at Firestone South has the Butterfly Redan similarities that you) attempt to draw ...

« **Reply #15 on:** May 09, 2003, 08:20:44 AM »

Mike, I'm not an attorney, but I think Dave's hole infringes on the trade dress of the new Bobby Grace "moment of inertia" putter that is used by Hank Kuehne and several other pros:

« **Reply #16 on:** May 09, 2003, 08:36:55 AM »

Kevin

Are you sure that isn't some sort of kitchen implement sold by Ronco?

« **Reply #17 on:** May 09, 2003, 08:44:35 AM »

Rich,

How can you of all people endorse installing redans willy nilly on our great classic courses...when their very nature leads to blindness as your ball nears the back hole location.

Shivas,

This is a tough room...I thought the butterfly redan would make a great addition to any modern design....I like the idea of the specific name rather than just calling any slanted slate a modified redan..

« **Reply #18 on:** May 09, 2003, 08:56:38 AM »

JakaB

If you read my collected works, you will know that blindness on a green is OK as long as you can see your ball land, or bounce. Blindness off the tee is OK as long as it is not on holes 2-6 of TOC. Let me know which volume(s) of "Goodale on Golf" you are missing and I will have them sent to you forthwith.

« **Reply #19 on:** May 09, 2003, 08:58:50 AM »

Quote

So Barney, I take it then that my latest newfangled architectural concoction that I thought of on the train this morning, the "butterfly redan" (somebody please tell me this doesn't already exist; if it does, don't mind me -- I'm prone to making up stuff that somebody already beat me to) would not be your cup of tea.

the butterfly redan would be 260 or so. It would basically be a redan and a reverse redan in one, hinging off of a mound in the front/center of the green that would either kick the ball left or right. The green would be narrow in front, and very wide in the back, and it would have a spine running through the middle, effectively two greens within greens. Behind the mound that is in front would be a deadly pot bunker:

   _____________________
   \ ^ /
   \ ^ /
   death \ ^ / deep dropoff
   \ ^ /
   \______O_______/
   ^
   / \

Love the Butterfly Redan! (Gotta upper-case these things, like Stupid Tree, to claim the rights to them later.)

One question: Why the deadly pot bunker in front?

« **Reply #20 on:** May 09, 2003, 09:26:31 AM »

shivas

I'd make the ridge a deep valley, giving the hole a bit of a 90 degree tilted Biarritz look to it too. Given that alternative and at least one meaning of the adjectival form of "butterfly" I think that only a man very low on testosterone could even think of going for either a right or left pin.....

« **Reply #21 on:** May 09, 2003, 09:40:28 AM »

Quote

shivas

I'd make the ridge a deep valley, giving the hole a bit of a 90 degree tilted Biarritz look to it too. Given that alternative and at least one meaning of the adjectival form of "butterfly" I think that only a man very low on testosterone could even think of going for either a right or left pin.....

Dr. Katz! Stat!

« **Reply #22 on:** May 09, 2003, 10:36:17 AM »

The best solution to the 12th is to split the front bunker into two. Allow the poorer player a foozled runup and the scratch man an opening to attack.

« **Reply #23 on:** May 09, 2003, 10:42:18 AM »

shivas,

Sometimes I wonder if you're channeling Desmond Muirhead

Keep 'em coming.

Regards,

Mike

« **Reply #24 on:** May 09, 2003, 10:59:25 AM »

Bob,

What if they just eliminated the right-hand third of the front bunker and placed a small subtle mound in the gap that kicked shots left? Note to JakaB: That would NOT be a redan!

Mike

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