[Noel Freeman]

Waterloo station.. Bollocks, I'm only in Waterloo station.  Everytime I wake up from a tequila hangover, I think I'm going to be in Surrey already.  I've been here so many times, so many memories.  When I was home after my first tour of the heathlands with Russell Talley and Jim Reilly (oh, no one here remembers Jim, one of the founding GCA guys), I hardly said a word to my playing partners until I said 'Yes" to being a Yale member.  When I was in London, all I could think about was being in Surrey, and when pillaging the American West, I wanted to be in London, waiting for a new course to discover.

But I'm still in Waterloo.  Memories clouding my consciousness, begging for attention over the din of the drone voice saying, "Platform 3 for the 11:09 train to Walton-on-Thames stopping at... And the voice continues, belting out mind numbing train schedules in an Orwellian brainwashing tone, I fully expect the voice to utter, "Keep calm and carry on!"---the World War II English stiff upper lip phrase.  But yet the memories remain.  Meeting Jim Reilly every afternoon while on a London tour, where to today my friend? Swinley, Ascot, Weybridge, Pulborough?  Sitting there I realize I miss Jim and I miss Russell.  Russell would pick us up from his golf architecture offices in Sunningdale and serve as match referee.  Jim and I played over 30 matches throughout the heathlands and London over 2 years, all for the glory of a Claret Jug we had inscribed, the owner of this holds the Grudge Cup.  Many of those "walks thru the heath" remain the basis of my understanding of golf architecture and for realizing the true meaning of friendship, but now Jim's living in Costa Rica, Russell's in Oxford, Paul Turner is no where to be found and Tuco is solo hombre.

I walk past the WH Smith and a memory of Darren Kilfara comes to mind. Does anyone here recall Darren?  I remember Darren joining us on some of these trips, I never seemed to get along with him, he being an anglophile Georgian and me being an outlaw.  While taking the train out to Ascot during Royal Ascot week we were surrounded on the train by an interesting species--the drunk, cleavage baring, crazy headgear wearing English roses going to and fro from the races that take place every June.  I think urban dictionary.com would call them cougars or better yet the most randy females on earth, but Darren was too busy reading his gilded copy of Napolean's conquests.  Jim and I were matching wits with the femininas and Darren skoffed at it all with the sneer of a faux english aristocrat wearing salmon coloured trousers and forgetting to shave his nose and ear hair.  Good god, those were halcyon days.

I move on as some bloke bumps into my clubs.  I move for my six shooter, but forget I'm in England and my western frontier justice attitude doesnt fly here and I promised the UK authorities not to pillage.  I continue on to find the train but see the golden arches- not heaven, Tuco is going to hell, or at least to where he can play Deal every day in the afterlife.  Oh I see a McDonalds, a hash brown would be delectable to soak up the residue of gin and tequila.  But then I hear an 8y old or so ruddy faced, satchel wielding, uniform wearing boy, who is obviously late for any kind of schooling screaming in an Essex accent-- (oh Tuco knows accents)

Mummy! Mummy!
I want an Ice Lolly Mummy!
(Tuco to self, what is an ice lolly|?!)
The mum then says: No! but that doesnt shut the kid up.
Mummy! Mummy!
I want a McDonalds milkshake mummy!

This Veruka Salt display of a instant gratification demand (Charlie and Chocolate Factory) turns my spurs up and I head for the train to Walton-on-Thames.  But I'm not going to Walton Heath, I'm going to Weybridge for a date with the hottest gal on the heath--St. Georges Hill.  She's not the best, oh that is Sunningdale but she's like Brooklyn Decker delicious looking.  Yet I have odd memories of the course.  For one, Jim Reilly kicked my tail in 2 matches there and as many know, Tuco is a sore loser.  But something has bothered me for years about St. Georges Hill. I just found something missing in the course, something not world class.  It bothered me, it reminds me of Mortfontaine, both have great 3rd nines, but somehow the big course just hits a bad tone.

Driving thru the gates into the richest housing complex in England, Joe Jackson yelling out, "Look over there---where" is playing on my inner monologue looking at the stately English mansions while I continue to look for a peak of the club.  Finally, the car turns right on Golf Road and I see one of the best clubhouses in the world sitting on a stately ridge overlooking the course.  What a place for a hair of the dog before I go out!  But then it all falls to tears.  

Why?  For one, my tequila fog plays this auditory track--
(Radio fade in from when "Have A Cigar" preludes into "Wish You Were Here"…and needle dropping onto an old turntable
Man: Discipline… It remains necessary!
Woman: What’s the matter with you Derek this is all nonsense.
Man: I don’t know.
Woman: Well, what is it?
Man: Nothing. I’m sure of it.

(Fading marching band sound to guitar intro)-- And then Pink Floyd's Wish you were here plays in my head.  And man, I miss my friends.. Jim Reilly and RT.

So there I stand-- The 1st hole at St. Georges Hill is the best opener on the heath.  One drives into a valley then the hole goes steeply uphill to a great greensite now sitting left of its original position but deliciously atop the hill.  It just looks right to the eye, but a four ball of ladies practicing for a match are hacking up the hole.  What I love about the English is the way they can sometimes show politeness in a firm way.  The starter encourages me to start on the 10th which is also a fabulous hole with a blind second shot over a ridge if you drive to the wrong part of the fairway and a great two tier green. So there my adventure began.

I do not wish to go hole by hole at the moment except to say this.  St. Georges Hill is much better than I remembered, it is as delightful and a hair bit more challenging than Pulborough.  It isnt penal, is still beautiful and allows you to play golf without losing your ball or sanity.  It is truly a regal course.  Two things though make me want to put my spurs in the horse. 1) The course lacks an all world hole yet the sum of its parts make it superior to Walton Heath in my opinion--I'm sure Tom Doak will try to pick me apart here and 2) The 8th hole HAS to be restored because then the course will have an all world hole.
That said, Tuco's photo ability is superlative, look at what I captured vis a vis lighting with a camera phone!

The 8th at St. Georges Hill





I can safely say SGH has gone up a lot in my book even though a hole that needs restoration is still an awesome shot value from ridge to plateau.  So when it was all done, a member said to me, So, old chap, how did you enjoy it.

Chap? did he call Tuco a chap?  Is he saying I'm a bit of a dandy?  I have to get home, what of my reputation.. He then recommends this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Am-I-Chap-Gustav-Temple/dp/1905636814

I then introduce myself as Sean Arble.

[Bill_McBride]

Brooklyn Decker......talk about your architecture!



Dang, will play Walton Heath Old, Liphook, Hankley Common and New Zealand this coming Buda trip, but no St George's Hill.   Too many heathland golf courses, too little time.

[Bill_McBride]

Dang, will play Walton Heath Old, Liphook, Hankley Common and New Zealand this coming Buda trip, but no St George's Hill.   Too many heathland golf courses, too little time.

You decided on WHO then Bill?

We will play those listed, plus Rye and Littlestone over the weekend.  Unfortunately no St George's Hill, although Tuco makes it sound really good.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Wizard prang, Tuco! Did you have time to nip over the fence for a nostalgic look back at Brooklands? They say that the sound of those supercharged Bentleys can still be heard by those with a little imagination (and rather a lot of gin). 6.20 pm here, sun over the yardarm, time for a snifter....

Farewell and adieu, old chap!

[Mark Bourgeois]

If Tuco finds SGH better than he remembers maybe Tuco played one of the wrong nines a long time ago. Or maybe Tuco has evolved and is not a chap but a toff.

2,5,8,12, and 17 deserve mention for quality. Perhaps Tuco has forgotten these because they are not visible from his house on the 14th hole?

[Noel Freeman]

Marky B.  You are always attacking me like a lap dog looking for a meal.  I'm a YOB not a toffy, you twit.  I love # 11, a delicious little par 3.  #10 is the closest thing they have to a world class hole, if they restore 8, it will easily be one of the best par 3s in the British Isles.

[Tom_Doak]

Noel:

What about that really short par-4 on the front side -- #4, isn't it?  That was so short when I played it in 1982 that it tempted me to try and drive the green.  ME.  Have they found a bit of length there, or is it just silly short?

They did the work on #8 in 1984.  I was there in the fall of 1982, and the bunker looked just fine ... it had aged a bit from the old pics, there was more heather on the face and sort of a stair-stepped face where generations of golfers had walked up it after playing from the depths ... but there were no maintenance issues that I could see, and it was one glorious bold hazard.  Went back three years later, and it was gone, and nobody could really say why.

[Noel Freeman]

Tom-

Rumblings are afoot on a proper restoration of #8, lets hope it goes thru.  I know a great Okie who could do the work.

It is after the redanish 3rd, indeed it is the 4th..  Plays about 270 from the tips, only 260 from the tees they had out when I was there.. only 248ish to the front of the green which is triangular in shape surrounded by sand.  I drove left and the pin was left and it left me with a horrific pitch as a spine runs on a diagonal basically making for a two tier slope--ie I should have driven it right with a miss.

Its an odd hole, except in winter or into a stiff breeze, you'd never be not tempted to go for it and walk away with par every time and I would surmise under fast green speeds it could result in a bogey, it isnt exactly the 10th at Royal Melbourne or say the 3rd at Sunningdale Old (from the member tees).  Also being downhill, I could hit 3 wood and reach.  When I first played the hole years ago, I felt it a tad weakish and would be better on the card as a par 3, it has more enjoyment as a scramble than an easy birdie.  Given the property I don't see how they could add much length to it, but tis a shame b/c another 10-20 yards would really help.

By the way, I can think of no more apropos quote to describe some of the disparate opinions people have of St. George's Hill than your quote-

--I'll happily go out on a limb here.  If you don't like this course I'll take the blame; but don't forget to thank me if you like it half as much as I do..--Confidential Guide.

I used to feel a bit of the former but now strongly feel the latter.

[Bill_McBride]

Marky B.  You are always attacking me like a lap dog looking for a meal.  I'm a YOB not a toffy, you twit.  I love # 11, a delicious little par 3.  #10 is the closest thing they have to a world class hole, if they restore 8, it will easily be one of the best par 3s in the British Isles.

YOB?   Por favor Tuco.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Two holes that Mr.Freeman talks about...

1st Hole Tee Shot:


10th Hole Approach:


10th Hole split level green:

[Paul_Turner]

Noel

Nice....good to see your palate isn't completely jaded from all that highfalutin ranking.  
But surely at least the 10th is an all world hole.  Which is better, that hole or 6th at De Pan?

[Adam Lawrence]

Noel

Nice....good to see your palate isn't completely jaded from all that highfalutin ranking.  
But surely at least the 10th is an all world hole.

I thought so too. Bit of an Alps template feel?

[Noel Freeman]

Paul-ina--

We are overdue to take a golf trip together?  Where to old bean?  Lets go to Silloth with Rowlie in July.. I've had prelim discussions.

Tuco needs to chronicle our lost evenings in Poole and Brugge. Can it get any better old chap?

I would say 10th at SGH is superior for the odd reason that the length is longer by 40-50 yards and that places a premium on the drive.  Both are so similar as I have much mirth for the drive and pitch nature of the 6th at De Pan which was my favorite hole there..

[Paul_Turner]

Noel

Yes lets get out.  In Japan, no golf.

PS Are you forgetting to convert meters to yards?  From the whites Pan 6 and SGH 10 are about the same length.  Unless 420yds is a pitch hole to you these days   (Although I think we did play from the yellows)

 

[Noel Freeman]

Au contraire Paulina

We played the 6th from the yellow tees and I recall that was 360 or about 395yards.. I hit driver too far left and had wedge to the right side of the green--it was bloody hard and fast if you recall.  Hit it right on that knob to the right of the green where the ridge comes into play with the green pad.. You of course played it perfectly down the right side..

#10 at SGH is 435 from the tips/member tees.. But De Pan #6 is 390 meteres from the stones, so that is exactly right and why we had the difference of opinion.

So they are quite similar/equal in length as you say, we just played a different tee.  So here's the rub.  They are quite equal then from length status, we just played shorter tees at De Pan.  I feel SGH has a more spacious feel to the tee shot, but the greensite at De Pan is much smaller and tighter.. So its a crapshoot..

#7 at De Pan is cracking hole so the quality continues on there.. Hmmn, I'm gettting cognitive dissonance now.

Tee shot on #6 at De Pan


Here is the approach to #6 at De Pan.. Not my pic, pinched from phil gawith



And the Green-

[Noel Freeman]

Great old pic of #8

[jeffwarne]

Tom-


It is after the redanish 3rd, indeed it is the 4th..  Plays about 270 from the tips, only 260 from the tees they had out when I was there.. only 248ish to the front of the green which is triangular in shape surrounded by sand.  I drove left and the pin was left and it left me with a horrific pitch as a spine runs on a diagonal basically making for a two tier slope--ie I should have driven it right with a miss.

Its an odd hole, except in winter or into a stiff breeze, you'd never be not tempted to go for it and walk away with par every time and I would surmise under fast green speeds it could result in a bogey, it isnt exactly the 10th at Royal Melbourne or say the 3rd at Sunningdale Old (from the member tees).  Also being downhill, I could hit 3 wood and reach.  When I first played the hole years ago, I felt it a tad weakish and would be better on the card as a par 3, it has more enjoyment as a scramble than an easy birdie.  Given the property I don't see how they could add much length to it, but tis a shame b/c another 10-20 yards would really help.

If they lengthened it, would it get any discussion here?
260-270 yard holes can be great as par (whatever ) holes.
It's fun for not long hitters to have a crack at a driving par 4's
My guess is the hole does a wonderful job of separating better from good players
lengthen it and it's just another driveable par 4 that's rarely driven or attempted 
make it a par 3 and eventually there'd be a 140 tee and the point would be lost

[Noel Freeman]

Tom-


It is after the redanish 3rd, indeed it is the 4th..  Plays about 270 from the tips, only 260 from the tees they had out when I was there.. only 248ish to the front of the green which is triangular in shape surrounded by sand.  I drove left and the pin was left and it left me with a horrific pitch as a spine runs on a diagonal basically making for a two tier slope--ie I should have driven it right with a miss.

Its an odd hole, except in winter or into a stiff breeze, you'd never be not tempted to go for it and walk away with par every time and I would surmise under fast green speeds it could result in a bogey, it isnt exactly the 10th at Royal Melbourne or say the 3rd at Sunningdale Old (from the member tees).  Also being downhill, I could hit 3 wood and reach.  When I first played the hole years ago, I felt it a tad weakish and would be better on the card as a par 3, it has more enjoyment as a scramble than an easy birdie.  Given the property I don't see how they could add much length to it, but tis a shame b/c another 10-20 yards would really help.

If they lengthened it, would it get any discussion here?
260-270 yard holes can be great as par (whatever ) holes.
It's fun for not long hitters to have a crack at a driving par 4's
My guess is the hole does a wonderful job of separating better from good players
lengthen it and it's just another driveable par 4 that's rarely driven or attempted 
make it a par 3 and eventually there'd be a 140 tee and the point would be lost

Jeff, if shorter hitters play the member tees it is eminently drivable and it should stay that way.. For scratch or a pro like yourself 270 to the center of the green, 240 to the front is not enough length which was my point for the uber low marker. Another 20 yards is what it needs for the higher caliber player. I saw 2 juniors drive it with fairway metals from the tips.

[jeffwarne]

Tom-


It is after the redanish 3rd, indeed it is the 4th..  Plays about 270 from the tips, only 260 from the tees they had out when I was there.. only 248ish to the front of the green which is triangular in shape surrounded by sand.  I drove left and the pin was left and it left me with a horrific pitch as a spine runs on a diagonal basically making for a two tier slope--ie I should have driven it right with a miss.

Its an odd hole, except in winter or into a stiff breeze, you'd never be not tempted to go for it and walk away with par every time and I would surmise under fast green speeds it could result in a bogey, it isnt exactly the 10th at Royal Melbourne or say the 3rd at Sunningdale Old (from the member tees).  Also being downhill, I could hit 3 wood and reach.  When I first played the hole years ago, I felt it a tad weakish and would be better on the card as a par 3, it has more enjoyment as a scramble than an easy birdie.  Given the property I don't see how they could add much length to it, but tis a shame b/c another 10-20 yards would really help.

If they lengthened it, would it get any discussion here?
260-270 yard holes can be great as par (whatever ) holes.
It's fun for not long hitters to have a crack at a driving par 4's
My guess is the hole does a wonderful job of separating better from good players
lengthen it and it's just another driveable par 4 that's rarely driven or attempted 
make it a par 3 and eventually there'd be a 140 tee and the point would be lost

Jeff, if shorter hitters play the member tees it is eminently drivable and it should stay that way.. For scratch or a pro like yourself 270 to the center of the green, 240 to the front is not enough length which was my point for the uber low marker. Another 20 yards is what it needs for the higher caliber player. I saw 2 juniors drive it with fairway metals from the tips.

The world needs more holes of this length IMHO.
par 3 1/2
How rarely would those juniours ever have to hit fairway metals off a tee to a green?
No doubt those were good shots-celebrate them.
If it were par three no doubt there'd be cries to enlarge the green or soften the hazards.

Not every hole has to be full of options and strategy-sometimes it's just nice to see an in between hole (of which there are many in the UK)
Less over here.
You never see any 270 par 3's but you should.(except on stupid 6 teed modern courses I never play and if I do I never play the stupid back tees) .
and you never see 270 par 4's from the back tees, but you should...

Pretty strong opinions from someone who's never seen the hole

[Noel Freeman]

Jeff-

I agree with you on par 3.5s.. But this hole is downhill and has a very big green with a huge spine thru it to defend itself.. But a good player will never tempt fate nor doom here.  For example Friars Head #5, get on the wrong side of the knob and you can screw yourself even with length and the green is tiny-- Also think of #15 at Fenway, sliver of a green and one can just get to front edge if hard and fast.. But miss and doom.  This hole doesnt have it.  I wish I had a pic, perhaps Paul Turner does.. Triangular green surrounded by sand. Bailout room right and some left to play away from the pin and the large tier if you are a member and know where to miss..

[jeffwarne]

Jeff-

I agree with you on par 3.5s.. But this hole is downhill and has a very big green with a huge spine thru it to defend itself.. But a good player will never tempt fate nor doom here.  For example Friars Head #5, get on the wrong side of the knob and you can screw yourself even with length and the green is tiny-- Also think of #15 at Fenway, sliver of a green and one can just get to front edge if hard and fast.. But miss and doom.  This hole doesnt have it.  I wish I had a pic, perhaps Paul Turner does.. Triangular green surrounded by sand. Bailout room right and some left to play away from the pin and the large tier if you are a member and know where to miss..

But I'm guessing if it was  a par 3 you'd be ok with it?
But we both know if that was the case there'd be no 260 white tee.

I understand holes such as the ones you cite are full of strategy and provoke thought and risk/reward.

I also like holes that have none of that but simply require a better shot than my opponent hit.
i.e. the correct play is to attempt to drive it or get as close as possible.
the easy par 4 that you feel poorly if you par and great if you birdie or eagle

[jeffwarne]

Jeff-

I agree with you on par 3.5s.. But this hole is downhill and has a very big green with a huge spine thru it to defend itself.. But a good player will never tempt fate nor doom here.  For example Friars Head #5, get on the wrong side of the knob and you can screw yourself even with length and the green is tiny-- Also think of #15 at Fenway, sliver of a green and one can just get to front edge if hard and fast.. But miss and doom.  This hole doesnt have it.  I wish I had a pic, perhaps Paul Turner does.. Triangular green surrounded by sand. Bailout room right and some left to play away from the pin and the large tier if you are a member and know where to miss..

But I'm guessing if it was  a par 3 you'd be ok with it?
But we both know if that was the case there'd be no 260 white tee.

I understand holes such as the ones you cite are full of strategy and provoke thought and risk/reward.

I also like holes that have none of that but simply require a better shot than my opponent hit.
i.e. the correct play is to attempt to drive it or get as close as possible.
the easy par 4 that you feel poorly if you par and great if you birdie or eagle

preferably followed by a really long par 4 with a tiny green.....

[Noel Freeman]

Par just a number.. Either as a par 3 or par 4, I find the hole just okay.. Pleasant but not great.  SGH is not a tough course, it could use a little pucker factor.  The previous hole is a redanesque par 3, so at this stage in the routing, a long par 3/short par 4 (par 3.5) just feels odd in the symphony to me.. Now, one could say what about Cypress point 15/16.  And I would answer, nothing in the world is like that duo.

[jeffwarne]

Par just a number.. Either as a par 3 or par 4, I find the hole just okay.. Pleasant but not great.  SGH is not a tough course, it could use a little pucker factor.  The previous hole is a redanesque par 3, so at this stage in the routing, a long par 3/short par 4 (par 3.5) just feels odd in the symphony to me.. Now, one could say what about Cypress point 15/16.  And I would answer, nothing in the world is like that duo.

agreed 100%
pleasant but not great.
as Sean A. would say
"I've got a lot of time for that"

[Mark Bourgeois]

4th is a lot of fun. Here are two pics:

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