[Adam Clayman]

David, Please highlight for me where I said they hadn't had a wet spring?

You have ample evidence that the course owner, and at least one of their members, wants the course softer than what was originally intended.

 Why do you need more than my word, or accept, they are achieving that result?

Please let's move on.

RCCC is wonderful place to play golf.

Because I'm spoiled, and prefer the "extreme" conditions, you were fortunate to play on, only detracts from the shotmaking options, slightly.

[Peter_Herreid]

At the risk of wading into this juvenile sniping match, I thought I would show a couple of photos from last September, the weekend after Labor Day, when the conditions were just as firm and fast as one would want them to be, and the whole gamut of shot-shaping options were available to those skilled enough to attempt them...

From roughly the same angle as the above, of the 7th green "bowl"


From high left of the sublime 10th green


From the "II" tee box(next one up from the 549 yd marker)  on #14


Lots of brown showing through at the end of last summer..

[Sean Leary]

I was with Dr. Herreid when he he took this pics and can attest to his comments. One thing I will say though is that the grass did seem somewhat sticky around the greens. But it affected putting from off the green far more than  the bump and run, and it had nothing to do with how firm it was...As far as the greens, our caddy told us that they had been slowed down due to member complaints about them being too fast.

[Kalen Braley]

Here's a pic of the same holes in August of 09


7th approach:




Looking back from behind 10 green:




14 Tee



P.S. 

Even the cart paths are "fast and firm"... 

[Mac Plumart]

  ;D

Now that is funny!!!

And you know what, if you cut through the non-sense there is a lot of great stuff and some real key insights in this thread.

[Jim Franklin]

Kalen - Thanks for the laugh. . You are a funny guy. We need to play again soon.

As for the shot of #7, in our first go through the course, I went right at the flag and my shot bounced through the green. On round #2, I aimed at the left side off the green and the ball hit, stuck, and rollled right near the stick. It was one of the shots that I really loved on the course and made me appreciate the strategic aspects even more.

[Adam Clayman]

We speculated that #'s 4, 8, 10, 16 & 17 were possibly the first holes that were found. Possibly making them the core of the routing. Can anyone confirm any of those holes as the first one's that either jumped off the topo, or were found on a walk about?

[Jim Franklin]

Adam -

I have no clue, but I would speculate #7 to be one of the first holes as Tom has mentioned the routing to get to that specific hole a few times and it is also the highest point on the course.

[Kalen Braley]

Adam -

I have no clue, but I would speculate #7 to be one of the first holes as Tom has mentioned the routing to get to that specific hole a few times and it is also the highest point on the course.

Jim,

I think you have that turned around.  Its my understanding #7 was the most difficult one because it had to be created/formed more so than any other hole on the course.  It was the missing link to joining the first 6 holes with the rest of the course.

P.S.  I recall looking at an old aerial, pre-golf course, and that was a solid thicket of trees where that wide open fairway now exists.

P.P.S.  I also recall Tom having said once that #8 required quite a bit of work to make that par 3 hole feasible right near the creek.

[Jim Franklin]

That cart accident may have knocked my head for a loop , so you may be right.

[Tom_Doak]

#10 was the first hole I found on the map.  Then, I realized I would have to get across the creek somewhere up on the high end of the property, where it was very steep and rugged, so I started looking for a way to get a longer hole through [so as not to have two consecutive par-3's in that space], and the only hole I could find that seemed to work was #7.  #11 and #13 and #14 were also on that original plan.  

We actually didn't find #16 and #17 until later, because I didn't think the client would want holes down in that little valley where they were looking right at the power lines.

[Adam Clayman]

Thanks Tom, Standing on 10 green it just screamed perfect. I was a bit shocked when I walked to the edge at how far we were from the creek, but the drama was readily apparent.

17 is just a great place to soak up the natural beauty of the entire region. Maybe it was the raging creek, but, I felt at peace there. (Hunter gatherer primordial peace, I suppose)

[Tony Weiler]

#10 was the first hole I found on the map.  Then, I realized I would have to get across the creek somewhere up on the high end of the property, where it was very steep and rugged, so I started looking for a way to get a longer hole through [so as not to have two consecutive par-3's in that space], and the only hole I could find that seemed to work was #7.  #11 and #13 and #14 were also on that original plan.  

We actually didn't find #16 and #17 until later, because I didn't think the client would want holes down in that little valley where they were looking right at the power lines.

There are power lines there, seriously??

[Jim Franklin]

#10 was the first hole I found on the map.  Then, I realized I would have to get across the creek somewhere up on the high end of the property, where it was very steep and rugged, so I started looking for a way to get a longer hole through [so as not to have two consecutive par-3's in that space], and the only hole I could find that seemed to work was #7.  #11 and #13 and #14 were also on that original plan.  

We actually didn't find #16 and #17 until later, because I didn't think the client would want holes down in that little valley where they were looking right at the power lines.

So #7 was early in the creation? Good to know that my cart "incident" didn't completely knock my brain into another world. Kalen, please note.

[Kalen Braley]

#10 was the first hole I found on the map.  Then, I realized I would have to get across the creek somewhere up on the high end of the property, where it was very steep and rugged, so I started looking for a way to get a longer hole through [so as not to have two consecutive par-3's in that space], and the only hole I could find that seemed to work was #7.  #11 and #13 and #14 were also on that original plan.  

We actually didn't find #16 and #17 until later, because I didn't think the client would want holes down in that little valley where they were looking right at the power lines.

So #7 was early in the creation? Good to know that my cart "incident" didn't completely knock my brain into another world. Kalen, please note.

I think you're trying to read between the lines Jimmy.

The holes after #7 were the 1st ones identified...and the starting holes would be on the other side of the creek.  So there needed to be a way to get across the creek.  It was finally settled when it was figured out how to be done.... hence #7 was born....towards the end of the process!!

You need to stick to what you do best....bean counting! 

[Mac Plumart]

Ryan:

I do think this is one of the very best courses I've built ... in my personal top five.

But, I don't agree with you that any idiot could have routed a great golf course here.  It took me four separate visits over 12+ months to figure out the routing we did so that the course could get up to #7 and still be walkable ... and that was with Eric contributing the first three holes to the plan.  There were plenty of options, but most of them included a hole or two that was too steep to be really good.

And, I doubt that the average idiot would have found the 7th hole.  It takes a special kind of idiot to find one like that. 

Don't forget this post by Tom D.  I think it might fit in with what y'all are talking about now.

[Craig Sweet]

Just dug this old thread up because a couple of our crew members played RCCC two days ago...

Mostly I wanted to post a word or two about golf course maintenance in western Montana in general.

Summer in Montana is blazing hot. Temps in the mid to high 90's ,with humidity 10-15% ,or lower, is quite common. Add to that a typical afternoon "breeze" and you have conditions that dry a course out rapidly. 

My experience has been that a morning round of golf and a late afternoon round of golf are like night and day.  In the morning the course is wet, the greens are wet, the fairways are wet....freshly mowed greens in the morning might run 9 or 9.5.  By 3pm, the course is as dry as a bone. You can almost see the grass tipping over and turning brown. The fairways and greens are much faster.

I would be very...very...very surprised to find "soft" conditions at RCCC on a typical July or August afternoon. This whole idea of a "maintenance meld" is BS...The course conditions are not static...they never can be. Some consistency can be achieved, but over the course of a 120 day season there will be variables....sometimes in the same day.

I am surprised that anyone who shows up at RCCC and plays a random round can suddenly be an expert on how the course is maintained.  To suggest, as many have in this thread, that RCCC is over watered, is absurd.  It simply is not the case.

[jeffwarne]

 This whole idea of a "maintenance meld" is BS...The course conditions are not static...they never can be. Some consistency can be achieved, but over the course of a 120 day season there will be variables....sometimes in the same day.

I am surprised that anyone who shows up at RCCC and plays a random round can suddenly be an expert on how the course is maintained.  To suggest, as many have in this thread, that RCCC is over watered, is absurd.  It simply is not the case.

No question, and a  lot of our well traveled posters commonly make this mistake, forgetting that access is often only granted at nonpeak times, that are "nonpeak" for a reason, and at some point, stressed grass has to recover

[Jim Nugent]

Craig, what did the guys think of the course?

[Tom_Doak]

  Its my understanding #7 was the most difficult one because it had to be created/formed more so than any other hole on the course.  It was the missing link to joining the first 6 holes with the rest of the course.

P.S.  I recall looking at an old aerial, pre-golf course, and that was a solid thicket of trees where that wide open fairway now exists.

Then you must have misunderstood me.  It's not the very first hole I found on the map, but I found it on the map before making my first visit out there; if I hadn't found it, I wouldn't have thought we could get up to where #10 is.  There was no significant earthwork done on #7 ... but there was indeed a lot of clearing.  In fact, I have remarked somewhere before that because of all the trees, if I hadn't been able to find that hole on the map, I don't think we would ever have found it walking around.

Note, I have provided much of this info about the routing to Ran, who was there a couple of weeks ago.  I suspect the course will have a full write-up soon. 

[Adam Clayman]

Craig, The Ideal Maintenance Meld has less to do with firmness, and more to do with presentation of mow lines, Height of cut, etc.

[Craig Sweet]

Adam, if I recall when Tom Paul first raised the concept of a "maintenance meld" it was MOSTLY about matching course conditions and how the course was designed to be played....

Jim, the boys loved it...both said it was the most difficult course they have played.

[Garland Bayley]

Craig, The Ideal Maintenance Meld has less to do with firmness, and more to do with presentation of mow lines, Height of cut, etc.

 
 

[Adam Clayman]

Sometimes it rains

[Andrew Cunningham]

Played Rock Creek three weeks ago.  Conditioning was exceptional.  Better than every other course I have played this year.  Firm, fast, lush, virtually flawless.  A real treat.  Loved the course and the whole club.  Amazing value for the membership experience they deliver.  Wish I lived closer.

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