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Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2011, 10:06:43 PM »
Andy...

I always love to talk golf with you.

On your points...

1) the bunkers.  Perhaps I didn't get my point across well on this one.  I wasn't bagging on the bunkers.  I thought they were great, well placed, etc.  I thought the look of the lips were interesting and I wondered if that look was simply a by-product of the natural soil or man-made to protect versus erosion.  That was my point there.

2)  I don't disagree with any of the point you made here.  I love Harbour Town and Inverness and I have them ranked accordingly on my list of "favorites".  It is key to remember that the list Jim posted is my list of favorites, not a list of "best" courses I've played.  If I were to rank the courses in terms of architectural quality, the list would be different.  Regardless, I respect your opinion and won't quibble with where you would rank specific courses and I respect that fact that you pointed out that I do have Rock Creek highly rated.

And on your last point, which is un-numbered, all I can say is that those par 3's were great in my book.  I have no issues with the par 4's and I thought they were really, really good.  But man, I loved the par 3's.  I loved The Good and The Bad back-to-back...The Good shorter down hill, The Bad longer, kind of uphill...really neat.  And then 17 was super-duper!!!  Visually stunning with a thrilling tee-shot, and a kick ass green.

And people have bagged on 18, and the first two times I played it from the 2nd and 3rd set of tees it was okay at best...but scooting back to the tipity-tips the hole transforms into something really neat.  The tee shot goes from mundane to thrilling and the visuals go from ho-hum to wow!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2011, 10:21:11 PM »
David...it is walkable.  You probably know I have some issues with my hips, but I walked a full 18 the first day and the rode for 36 the next day.  I might have been able to walk another 18 the next day, but I would have been hurting.  I think a "normal" person could walk it every day (maybe not 108 holes in a day like Jim at Ballyneal, but that is Ballyneal and Jim is superhuman!!).

On the terrain being borderline unsuitable for golf, perhaps the soil had something to do with it...but I am nowhere near a soil expert, so I can't say for sure.  The issues for me where the rocks (first and foremost) and the steep elevation changes.  

But please take note that I said "borderline"...I didn't say it was unsuitable...any more severe on the elevation changes and it probably would be unsuitable for golf if the owner didn't chose an architect that would drastically alter the natural landscape.  And along those lines, I think Tom Doak and his team did a pretty stellar good job keeping minamilism intact on this type of site.  I suppose my question, and perhaps he could answer, would be "Could he have kept to his minamalism mantra if the site for the course had been more severe in terms of topography?"

Mac, in my opinion, and I think Tom has said this here before, this is one of his best properties. The site is absolutely perfect for golf as far as the land forms and elevation changes go. Definitely one of the best inland pieces of land in the United States. If you walked more of the property, you would see how different the terrain is one you get a few hundred yards off of the golf course. The hills start to get larger with big broad slopes.... Any idiot could have routed a great golf course here, but Tom has proved himself never to drop the ball on good pieces of land and got the deal, and he certainly delivered Rock Creek.

As for the rocks..... its kind of in the name dude. Its a 50/50 chance you might have a terrible lie, but the fairways are HUGE!!!!! I don't see how it is any different from a tree-line course back east or a course surrounded by wetlands in the south. There aren't too many places where you can spray your ball way off line and have a playable lie, that's just the nature of the game.

As far as rocks in the bunker lips go, there aren't too places where you actually play over the rock-lip. I'm sure it happens in some instances but if it was on the outer/transitional edge we kept them, if you played directly over, they were sometimes removed. I'm sure over time there might be some rock exposed if the bunkers start to erode, its just something the maintenance team will have to keep and eye on.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2011, 10:47:41 PM »
Always interesting stuff. 

Ryan touches on the bunker lips thing again and seems to imply I was being critical of the lips regarding their playability.  I don't believe I said that and/or implied it.  I wondered if they were natural or man-made.  I thought they look interesting, unique, wild, etc.  I asked Tom to comment on that aspect of it to get some insight into the soil at Rock Creek.

And Ryan's point on the rocks being akin to trees.  Good point.  If I take out the rocks and replace them with trees, the course looks different (worse) but probably plays the same.  I'll take the rocks...good point!

Regarding Ryan's comment that the site is "absolutely perfect for golf."  I guess I need to be educated a bit more on what is perfect land for golf, as I just don't see that at all.  The Old Course sits on land perfectly suited for golf.  As does NGLA, Shinnecock perhaps, Muirfield, Ballyneal perhaps.  Rock Creek perfectly suited for golf?  Perhaps the fairways are usually more firm than they were the three rounds I played there.  Perfectly suited for golf?  If we replace the rocks with trees (per your suggestion), then we have a heavily tree-lined course...that isn't ideal for golf...at least according to many "experts" including CBM.  Help me see how it is perfectly suited for golf.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2011, 11:03:22 PM »


Mac, in my opinion, and I think Tom has said this here before, this is one of his best properties. The site is absolutely perfect for golf as far as the land forms and elevation changes go. Definitely one of the best inland pieces of land in the United States. If you walked more of the property, you would see how different the terrain is one you get a few hundred yards off of the golf course. The hills start to get larger with big broad slopes.... Any idiot could have routed a great golf course here, but Tom has proved himself never to drop the ball on good pieces of land and got the deal, and he certainly delivered Rock Creek.




Ryan:

I do think this is one of the very best courses I've built ... in my personal top five.

But, I don't agree with you that any idiot could have routed a great golf course here.  It took me four separate visits over 12+ months to figure out the routing we did so that the course could get up to #7 and still be walkable ... and that was with Eric contributing the first three holes to the plan.  There were plenty of options, but most of them included a hole or two that was too steep to be really good.

And, I doubt that the average idiot would have found the 7th hole.  It takes a special kind of idiot to find one like that.  ;)

Andy Troeger

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2011, 11:34:43 PM »
Mac,
The par threes (and fives) at Rock Creek are very good--they would be standout holes on most courses. #10 still does stand out and I agree with you on #17 as its a thrilling hole. As a set the variety is very good too. I just think the par fours are what really stand out--#7, 11, 15, and 16 especially.

I also get the impression that the course might be firmer normally, or at least later in the season, than what you saw recently. I've noticed from your photos and Peter's earlier in the thread that the course does look quite different at this time of year than it does in August. I would guess it plays firmer once you get further into summer as well, which might affect things too.

I thought the course, and even the rough, was very playable. Far more so than Harbour Town given you have 5x more room to drive the ball (and that's probably not an exaggeration!). I think the randomness of your chances of having a playable recovery in the rough is a reasonable penalty for missing the huge fairways. I do wonder if the added green/rain made those areas a bit lusher than what I experienced in an August round.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2011, 11:49:54 PM »
Andy...

Great post with some great points!

To your point about the par 3's being standouts on other courses.  You are right and that speaks to the quality of the golf course at Rock Creek.  The tone of some of these posts seem to conclude that I didn't like Rock Creek, which couldn't be further from the truth.  It is one of the best courses I've played and I've ranked it as such.  Quality golf, no doubt about it!  Just because I have courses like NGLA, Sand Hills, and The Old Course ranked higher than Rock Creek really isn't a knock on RCCC.

And I think your point about the rain having an effect on the course and its playability just might be spot on.  Both on the firmness of the fairways and the lushness of the rough.  Great point!!

Oh yeah...you mentioned hole 16.  What a GREAT golf hole that one is...WOW!!!  Think of this stretch of holes (and pause and think about each and every one of them for a quick second)...10...11...12...13...14...15...16...17...boy, oh, boy...that is some good golf!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 11:54:05 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2011, 11:59:08 PM »
While obviously not the easiest course to walk, Rock Creek is definitely walkable even for multiple rounds on the same day, playing a few days in a row. It is a much easier walk than it looks.  Moreover, I'd say it comes off as a better course walking than riding, for a couple of reasons.  First, it was obviously designed with walking in mind, and for the most part the transitions work very well. Second, TomD, Eric, etc. apparently do not like cart paths mucking up their golf courses, and so the cart paths are well hidden and well out of play and because of the terrain they often take a round-about route.  So I think one can get much better impression from the course on foot.  (This may be so of most courses, but more so here than at most.)

Also, I don't understand what it is about the terrain that makes it "borderline unsuitable for golf."  Of course there are rocks everywhere and of all sizes in the soil.  It is a glacial moraine.  No doubt the rocks presented challenges during construction, but at this point the only rocks reasonably in play are a few in place for aesthetic impact. The fairways are almost unbelievably wide so I cannot quite believe one would encounter many rocks at all even on repeat plays. Maybe if one was playing the wrong tees by a tee or two, then I guess one might have some trouble getting over the native in a few spots, but other than that I cannot imagine them much in play.

As for it being "very hilly, almost too much," again I don't really get this.  In my opinion the highlight of the course was the rolling and tumbling terrain, the incredibly wide fairways, and the brilliant manner in which Doak, Iverson, and co. used short grass, roll, and visibility as fundamental strategic components.
_____________________________________________________________

Mac, weren't you the one advocating for "extreme golf?" (Insert guitar solo and primal scream here.) I am not sure how that jibes with your comments on Rock Creek.  The rolls may be bigger than you are used to, the slopes steeper, and the movement of the ground crazier, but that is the nature of the site, and the beauty of the golf course.   And most importantly IMO it works as a golf course, it fits perfectly with the landscape, it is a pleasant and exhilarating walk, and shot after shot is not only different, it is tremendous fun.

As for the conditions, your experience is different from mine, but then I haven't been there is a few years.  Do you really feel comfortable judging the quality of the course based on the conditions for the few days you were there?  

And Mac, please don't take my comments the wrong way. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I am sure there is a large segment of golfers for which Rock Creek would be too big a break from the status quo.  I just don't understand the "borderline unsuitable for golf" comment, unless you meant borderline out of your comfort zone for golf.

Would you feel the same way about the terrain if the hills were sand dunes instead of glacial moraine?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 12:14:37 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2011, 12:10:58 AM »

4) a big issue I had with the course centered on the availability of the ground game...and frankly, I might need some help on this and/or play the course again in different conditions...many times I (and/or others in my group) would try a bump and run type of shot only to see it get caught up in the grass and not roll out as I/we suspected/hoped it might (or like it does at St. Andrews, Ballyneal, North Berwick, etc).  So, I am left wondering if the course was simply too wet (as Montana has had a lot of rain) or does bluegrass kind of behave like zoysia and sort of "grab" the ball and prevent a good run up style of game.  I have to believe that the course was simply too wet, but like I said I don't know for sure.


Mac:

When we were there for the Renaissance Cup a couple of years ago, in the fall, they had the course VERY firm and fast ... it was really much more firm and fast than I ever thought they could get it, and it was just a blast to play.  They kept it that way until the member/guest the next summer, when the members mostly thought that it was just too severe and needed to be changed.  So, the superintendent raised the mowing heights a bit and watered a bit, to keep them from wanting to blow up greens.

We did not sand-cap the fairways there, so the conditions are a bit at the mercy of the weather and the soils, but I think they do a hell of a job considering the extremes of weather in Montana, where it can be 90 in the afternoon and get below freezing the same night.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2011, 12:23:51 AM »
Hey Dave...

I'll try to address your questions/comments as best I can.

Walkability...agreed.  The course is certainly walkable.  And, like you, I agree that the course is actually better suited for walking rather than riding.  The routing is not set up with the rider in mind as, like you touched on, the paths go way out of the way and make the ride a bit disjointed.  But that is okay and not a knock at all.  In fact, it is probably a good thing as the visuals and the natural feeling isn't messed up by paths.

It is funny to me that you guys seem fixated on the "borderline unsuitable for golf" comment.  Perhaps you guys didn't read this, or simply chose to disregard it...But please take note that I said "borderline"...I didn't say it was unsuitable...any more severe on the elevation changes and it probably would be unsuitable for golf if the owner didn't chose an architect that would drastically alter the natural landscape.  And along those lines, I think Tom Doak and his team did a pretty stellar good job keeping minamilism intact on this type of site.  I suppose my question, and perhaps he could answer, would be "Could he have kept to his minamalism mantra if the site for the course had been more severe in terms of topography?"

Points that I thought should have been focused on were the following......

any more severe on the elevation changes and it probably would be unsuitable for golf if the owner didn't chose an architect that would drastically alter the natural landscape.  

And along those lines, I think Tom Doak and his team did a pretty stellar good job keeping minamilism intact on this type of site.

But, oh well, fixate away.

And Dave...you say this...it works as a golf course, it fits perfectly with the landscape, it is a pleasant and exhilarating walk, and shot after shot is not only different, it is tremendous fun.

I have agreed with this sentiment the entire time I've been posting.  I have RCCC ranked as one of my favorite courses.  It seems like you guys want me to say it is the greatest course of all time.  Nothing is better.  This is the greatest of the great.  It has no flaws.  Superb.  Unbelievable.  The best.  The greatest.  Well, I won't say it because I don't believe it.  Rock Creek is very good.  It is super.  It is worth the travel.  It is worth the hassle.  I would go again.  It is ONE of my favorites.  I can say that because I believe it.  If you want me to say it is better than The National Golf Links of America, I am sorry...I can't say that.  If you want me to say it is better than The Old Course...sorry, I can't say that.  However, I will re-iterate...Rock Creek is very good and, to me, it is worth several hours of travel and expense to see and play.  I personally think that is pretty high praise.

To your question...Do you really feel comfortable judging the quality of the course based on the conditions for the few days you were there?  

Yes, I do.  Very comfortable.  In fact, I think I've totally nailed it.  And again, if you think the list that Jim posted on my "favorites" directly correlates to the list of "best" courses I've played...you are making a mistake.

To your last point,
Would you feel the same way about the terrain if those were sand dunes instead of glacial moraine?

Interesting point.  Would this terrain you speak of have fescue grass?  

This kind of leads into a point that no one has touched upon that I commented on quite sometime ago, but rather than fixate on these issues y'all chose other ones, and that is the playing characteristics of blue grass fairways.  


EDIT...Tom Doak posted while I was typing, I haven't had a chance to read it yet.  FYI.





Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2011, 12:30:32 AM »
Tom...

That was what I've been waiting to hear.  Thanks for the insight.  I think that if those conditions were maintained the course would be even better than it already is.  Super fast and firm and Rock Creek would be really, really something special.

You didn't sand cap...great to know.  That helps out a lot.

Thanks again!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mike Bowline

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2011, 01:24:38 AM »
are they rocks in the bunker lips?
When I worked with the RDG guys on a course in Denver after RCCC was completed, I heard many a story about the difficulty in working such rocky terrain in Montana, especially in the detail work around the bunkers.

When a bunker is constructed, it is of paramount importance to construct a sharp, clean edge. This is relatively painless in nice, cohesive soil. But it is a real pain in soil with rocks. A rock that appears in the middle of a bunker edge must be removed, and the bunker edge must be re-created with damp soil that will keep a sharp edge. Only have to do it once – not too bad. But they had rocks everywhere that made the bunker construction extremely difficult.

Mat Dunmyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2011, 01:31:08 AM »
Hey Dave...

I'll try to address your questions/comments as best I can.

Walkability...agreed.  The course is certainly walkable.  And, like you, I agree that the course is actually better suited for walking rather than riding.  The routing is not set up with the rider in mind as, like you touched on, the paths go way out of the way and make the ride a bit disjointed.  But that is okay and not a knock at all.  In fact, it is probably a good thing as the visuals and the natural feeling isn't messed up by paths.

It is funny to me that you guys seem fixated on the "borderline unsuitable for golf" comment.  Perhaps you guys didn't read this, or simply chose to disregard it...But please take note that I said "borderline"...I didn't say it was unsuitable...any more severe on the elevation changes and it probably would be unsuitable for golf if the owner didn't chose an architect that would drastically alter the natural landscape.  And along those lines, I think Tom Doak and his team did a pretty stellar good job keeping minamilism intact on this type of site.  I suppose my question, and perhaps he could answer, would be "Could he have kept to his minamalism mantra if the site for the course had been more severe in terms of topography?"

Points that I thought should have been focused on were the following......

any more severe on the elevation changes and it probably would be unsuitable for golf if the owner didn't chose an architect that would drastically alter the natural landscape.  

And along those lines, I think Tom Doak and his team did a pretty stellar good job keeping minamilism intact on this type of site.

But, oh well, fixate away.

And Dave...you say this...it works as a golf course, it fits perfectly with the landscape, it is a pleasant and exhilarating walk, and shot after shot is not only different, it is tremendous fun.

I have agreed with this sentiment the entire time I've been posting.  I have RCCC ranked as one of my favorite courses.  It seems like you guys want me to say it is the greatest course of all time.  Nothing is better.  This is the greatest of the great.  It has no flaws.  Superb.  Unbelievable.  The best.  The greatest.  Well, I won't say it because I don't believe it.  Rock Creek is very good.  It is super.  It is worth the travel.  It is worth the hassle.  I would go again.  It is ONE of my favorites.  I can say that because I believe it.  If you want me to say it is better than The National Golf Links of America, I am sorry...I can't say that.  If you want me to say it is better than The Old Course...sorry, I can't say that.  However, I will re-iterate...Rock Creek is very good and, to me, it is worth several hours of travel and expense to see and play.  I personally think that is pretty high praise.

To your question...Do you really feel comfortable judging the quality of the course based on the conditions for the few days you were there?  

Yes, I do.  Very comfortable.  In fact, I think I've totally nailed it.  And again, if you think the list that Jim posted on my "favorites" directly correlates to the list of "best" courses I've played...you are making a mistake.

To your last point,
Would you feel the same way about the terrain if those were sand dunes instead of glacial moraine?

Interesting point.  Would this terrain you speak of have fescue grass?  

This kind of leads into a point that no one has touched upon that I commented on quite sometime ago, but rather than fixate on these issues y'all chose other ones, and that is the playing characteristics of blue grass fairways.  


EDIT...Tom Doak posted while I was typing, I haven't had a chance to read it yet.  FYI.







Tom:

It's been a while since I checked out the forum here and I'm please to see the dialogue and opinions about the course!!

Mat Dunmyer

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2011, 02:35:16 AM »
Mac,

I didn't comment on your list, nor did I pay it any mind.  I don't care whether you list it at 2 or 2000, I was just trying to understand your comments about the course.  I still don't.

I did notice the word "borderline" but I also noticed that you listed the terrain as a "con" whereas I have trouble seeing it as anything but a huge "pro."  Same goes for the routing.   As for your question about a more sever course, shouldn't we be talking about RCCC and not some imaginary course on more severe land? Unless your point is that RCCC is too severe for your liking, or too far toward the severe side of the continuum, then I don't understand the point of the question?


But mostly I don't understand how, on the one hand, you can agree that RCCC works as a golf course, fits perfectly with the landscape, is a pleasant and exhilarating walk, and shot after shot is not only different, it is tremendous fun, yet on the other hand list the routing and the terrain on the "con" side of the ledger. If those things above are true, then how can the routing and terrain be cons?  I am not trying to give you a hard time.  I am just trying to understand this apparent contradiction.

Also, I am not sure it is reasonable for you to judge the turf conditions based upon one visit during a wet year. I was at that Renaissance Cup a couple of years ago and when Tom says the conditions were "VERY firm and fast" he is not overstating in the least. The conditions were blistering fast and while it was absolute blast, it doesn't surprise me that some of the members might have been a bit overwhelmed by such conditions.  I don't know how much the club adjusted, but there was plenty of wiggle room with which to work.  I had been over the course earlier that summer when they were still getting the course in shape, and while it was far softer than at the Renaissance Cup the ground game was still a viable option.

Lastly, I am curious as to how your views on RCCC gel with your views on what you call "extreme golf."  It seems to me that RCCC would fit the bill almost perfectly, yet from your comments it doesn't sound quite like a perfect fit.  What am I missing?
___________________________________________________________

Mat,

Great to see your post. I hope all is well with you and yours. You of all people ought to be able to give us an idea of whether the soil and grass are suitable to firm and fast conditions.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 02:42:47 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Andy Troeger

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2011, 08:03:22 AM »
Mac,
I can sympathize a bit because what you are saying reminds me a bit of my comments (and ranking) of Ballyneal, even if the "why" bit is different. You have some courses ahead of Rock Creek that would be lucky to get 2-3 rounds out of 10 in a "which would you rather play" listing. But you probably still have it listed as Top 100 course give or take. I just have it my in my overall top five and think its borderline for Top 10 in the US, so certainly there's a difference there!

And you're getting comments regarding your "borderline" comment because its nowhere near borderline--the terrain is amazing and a strength of the course!  :)  I think that's "proven" by your (or anyone's) ability to walk the course. Places in Colorado like Sanctuary that essentially require a cart might be borderline for golf even if I enjoyed playing it--Rock Creek doesn't come close to that consideration.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2011, 08:42:59 AM »
Mike...thanks.  I was hoping someone would have some insight into that aspect of the course.

Andy...well put.  Thanks!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2011, 08:57:22 AM »
As an another viewpoint, I thought the routing was damn ingenious.

Based on how much land is out there, and given there is a fair amount of elevation differential of i'm guessing 300-400 feet, (highest point being 7 tee, lowest point being 17 green), it appeared to be an expert use of getting one around without any "billy goat" holes.

As for the routing, I thought every single hole from #3 to #16 were anywhere from terrific to world class.  Couldn't ask for a more diverse set of par 4s.

It was also fast and firm when we played it two summers ago and I specifically remember playing several runner/kickboard approach shots.


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2011, 11:26:22 AM »
Mac,

It's Rock Creek Cattle Company in the Rocky Mountains.

Your over concern with rocks has blown any possible future invitation to play Jawbone Creek Country Club. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2011, 12:30:10 PM »
I also wanted to add, for those who are considering a trip to RCCC, while I have my game under better control now, at the time I was playing to about a 22 handicap or so and was hitting the ball all over the place for 36 holes.

I don't ever once recall having a scenario where rocks were impeding my play.  Its a complete non-issue even though there are plenty of rocks to be found in the area otherwise.  I worried more about Rattlesnakes when straying into the tall stuff.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2011, 01:00:06 PM »
Kalen:

The rocks in the rough were always going to be seen as a drawback to the course.  We did our best to leave them in places where they weren't too likely to be in play -- and let me tell you, it cost a LOT more money to build it wide enough and screen out the rocks in all those places so that you would never be up against one.  ;) 

Still, it's inevitable that people will top a tee shot or hit a wild shot outside the wide playing corridors on occasion.  [I've been in the rocks a few times; almost broke my shin last summer, hitting a recovery shot that struck a sage bush six inches in front and rebounded into my leg.]  So the question is, how does one handle that?  Do you re-tee, or take an unplayable lie and drop somewhere in between the rocks?  A lot of members just roll the ball away from the rock it's next to, and play on ... which seems fine to me if you're a 20-handicap and you're not playing for money, or if your opponent is doing the same thing.  Bottom line, in such a rocky setting, eventually you've got to address the question if you want to play golf ... rock picking 500 acres would have been a huge waste.

So, I guess I understand if some people can't get over the rocks, because they make abiding by the rules harder.  We all know there are some guys who think golf should only be played by the sea in Scotland.  :)  And the rankings generally reflect that view.  But Rock Creek is a special place, and I'm very happy we had the chance to build a golf course there.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2011, 03:27:41 PM »
Tom...again, thanks, great post!

And you mention that you feel that Rock Creek is a special place.  I couldn't agree more.  Jim Colton asked for my opinion, essentially pros and cons, of the course and I gave it to him.  One of my cons was the rocky-ness of the site, hey there are rocks there...what are you going to do?  I mention on my website that you and your team did a Hercualean job to make these kind of issues nothing more than a minor issue...and I mean that...I think you guys did a great job with that.

But the take away I have regarding Rock Creek is the fact it is a well-routed and walkable mountain course with a great set of par 3's and 4's, and one of the best par 5's I've played, and the best set of Doak greens I've ever played.

Frankly, that is saying a lot and I thought my comment about the best set of Doak greens would be what people wanted to discuss/aruge about.

And like I mentioned before, it takes awhile to get there and it ain't cheap...but I'd go again in a heart-beat...it is that good of a golf course and club.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2011, 04:52:22 PM »
Since it's apparent the course is not now, of the firm and fast variety, those people who played it years ago, had a different experience than Mac.

The membership's desire to want it softer, is making the playability different. It might even be altering the psychological affects, originally intended, by changing the textures and colors presented?

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

DMoriarty

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Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2011, 02:08:48 AM »
Since it's apparent the course is not now, of the firm and fast variety, those people who played it years ago, had a different experience than Mac.

The membership's desire to want it softer, is making the playability different. It might even be altering the psychological affects, originally intended, by changing the textures and colors presented?

I don't know about this.  RCCC could have backed well off from the blazing conditions some of us experienced few years ago and still have been pretty firm and fast. "Softer" isn't necessarily the same as soft.

I am not surprised it was somewhat soft last week.   Montana had one of its wettest springs on record, and there have been recent flood warnings, flooding, and heavy rains in that part of the state.   Given the recent weather, I am not so sure it is reasonable to write the course off as too soft based playing it last weekend.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 02:29:37 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Adam Clayman

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Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2011, 08:25:40 AM »
But its ok to write it off as great when humming?  Nobody said it was too soft. What was said and evperienced was a stickiness. This stickiness even made one player, who normally would putt the ball from any and all coillars, to use their lob wedge. I'd say that's a significant difference in playability which could easily alter perceptions.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jim Franklin

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Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2011, 11:40:15 AM »
But its ok to write it off as great when humming?  Nobody said it was too soft. What was said and evperienced was a stickiness. This stickiness even made one player, who normally would putt the ball from any and all coillars, to use their lob wedge. I'd say that's a significant difference in playability which could easily alter perceptions.

That certainly could alter perceptions, but I am glad it was firm and fast when I played it. I did not notice any rocks getting in my way when I played either except right of #10 when I went for it in two and pushed it a little.
Mr Hurricane

Kalen Braley

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Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2011, 12:36:07 PM »
But its ok to write it off as great when humming?  Nobody said it was too soft. What was said and evperienced was a stickiness. This stickiness even made one player, who normally would putt the ball from any and all coillars, to use their lob wedge. I'd say that's a significant difference in playability which could easily alter perceptions.

That certainly could alter perceptions, but I am glad it was firm and fast when I played it. I did not notice any rocks getting in my way when I played either except right of #10 when I went for it in two and pushed it a little.

A little?  You were so far down in the gunch/gulch on the right... Andy and I wondered if you were lost/abducted/ate by a cow, etc.   ;D  ;D