[Kevin Pallier]

Jay

I'd give PD more than two 9's and I wouldn't give PB more than four 9's

[Jud_T]

One other thought:  if the best holes at Pebble -- and the 6th is one of them, for me -- are no better than the best holes at Pacific Dunes, then the debate as to which course is better should not be close, because the weakest holes at Pebble are substantially weaker than the weakest holes at Pacific.

Jay,

This pretty much sums it up for me...

[Jay Cox]

Jason,
On using the boxing scoring system, wouldn't that just make it a very slightly modified version of match play?  I think the interesting part of trying this exercise is to see if / how the results differ from the results of match play, and minimizing the differences between the two seems like it would take away a lot of that interest.  Why do you think the boxing system would be better?

Kevin,
I made my list with two assumptions:
- a 10 was a hole that I could play hundreds or even thousands of times and still be thrilled to go out and play it again, one of the top handful of holes in the world; and
- as with the Doak scale, a totally average hole would be a 3.  

I hadn't thought about how to define a 9, or about how many 9s there would be in the world, but my guess is that applying the undefined standard I ended up applying there would several hundred, or perhaps a thousand.

You said that you don't think there are more than four 9s at Pebble, and that there are more than two 9s at Pacific.  I'd love to know which holes from each course you think make that cut.  For me, the remarkable thing about Pebble is that it has so many really outstanding holes, and the remarkable things about Pacific is that the quality is so consistent throughout.  

I'd love to see others' hole-by-hole numbers.

[Jimmy Chandler]

Jud, I think they are both wonderful holes that are basically impossible to compare.

I think the 6th might be the most underrated holes at Pebble Beach.  People often will talk about 8-10, or 7-10.  I love 9 and 10, but 6-8 is probably my favorite three-hole stretch.

[Disclaimer: I've never played Pebble, only viewed it on TV, walked along a couple of holes when visiting the area, and playing it on the computer]

It seems to me that 6-8 offers the player a unique set of shots, whereas 8-10 are a little more like each other. How many holes in the world have approach shots anything like 6, 7 and 8?

[Bill_McBride]

What happened to Jamie?

[Tom_Doak]

Actually, I think the sixth hole at Pebble is fairly overrated.

It's a great hole in the context of the routing, because it sets up 7 and 8 and 9, and the uphill second shot is the only such challenge on the golf course.

But is it really one of the great holes in the world?  I can't see that.  Straightforward drive with no real advantage for being left or right; blind second shot up the hill which offers a great reward if you hit a great straight shot; and a straightforward green.  If that's one of the great par-fives of the world, it's only a sign that there aren't very many great par-fives.

[Sam Morrow]

Actually, I think the sixth hole at Pebble is fairly overrated.

It's a great hole in the context of the routing, because it sets up 7 and 8 and 9, and the uphill second shot is the only such challenge on the golf course.

But is it really one of the great holes in the world?  I can't see that.  Straightforward drive with no real advantage for being left or right; blind second shot up the hill which offers a great reward if you hit a great straight shot; and a straightforward green.  If that's one of the great par-fives of the world, it's only a sign that there aren't very many great par-fives.

Tom,

 Does the hole play any better or worse in your mind when they let the fairway on the right go all the way to the edge of the cliiff?

[Tom_Doak]

Actually, I think the sixth hole at Pebble is fairly overrated.

It's a great hole in the context of the routing, because it sets up 7 and 8 and 9, and the uphill second shot is the only such challenge on the golf course.

But is it really one of the great holes in the world?  I can't see that.  Straightforward drive with no real advantage for being left or right; blind second shot up the hill which offers a great reward if you hit a great straight shot; and a straightforward green.  If that's one of the great par-fives of the world, it's only a sign that there aren't very many great par-fives.

Tom,

 Does the hole play any better or worse in your mind when they let the fairway on the right go all the way to the edge of the cliiff?

Sam:

I have not been back since that change was made.  However, I think it's really just a penal element added to make up for the short length of the par-5.  If I were playing the hole, I would be aiming for the left edge of the fairway, as far from the hazard as possible.

[Sam Morrow]

Actually, I think the sixth hole at Pebble is fairly overrated.

It's a great hole in the context of the routing, because it sets up 7 and 8 and 9, and the uphill second shot is the only such challenge on the golf course.

But is it really one of the great holes in the world?  I can't see that.  Straightforward drive with no real advantage for being left or right; blind second shot up the hill which offers a great reward if you hit a great straight shot; and a straightforward green.  If that's one of the great par-fives of the world, it's only a sign that there aren't very many great par-fives.

Tom,

 Does the hole play any better or worse in your mind when they let the fairway on the right go all the way to the edge of the cliiff?

Sam:

I have not been back since that change was made.  However, I think it's really just a penal element added to make up for the short length of the par-5.  If I were playing the hole, I would be aiming for the left edge of the fairway, as far from the hazard as possible.

It seems like the longer hitter can take it up the left side, far from the hazard, and still be able to get there in two.

[Jason Topp]

Jason,
On using the boxing scoring system, wouldn't that just make it a very slightly modified version of match play?  I think the interesting part of trying this exercise is to see if / how the results differ from the results of match play, and minimizing the differences between the two seems like it would take away a lot of that interest.  Why do you think the boxing system would be better?

Jay:

I was somewhat tongue in cheek but I don't think you can be that precise in comparing golf holes on very good golf courses.  My proposal takes your idea of rewarding big differences but does so without trying to parce the difference between a 7 and a 6 for example.

The idea is that like boxing the winning hole gets a 10.  Normally the losing hole gets a 9.  If there is a big difference it would be a 10-8 round, like a knockdown in boxing and for a tie the score would be 10-10.  I suppose you could go 10-7 if you love one and hate the other but such a score is a huge difference and lwould require the losing course to win three in a row to get back to even. 

[Andy Troeger]

I can't agree with the premise that Pac Dunes' best holes are on par with Pebble's. IMO #8 at Pebble is the best par four between the two courses, #18 at Pebble is the best par five, and #7 at Pebble is the best par three. That doesn't even include #6 (or #4 which I still think is really underrated). While I don't think Pebble's "weak" hole are as weak as some would say, I think its reasonable to say that Pac's weakest holes are better.

[Jim Franklin]

I like #11 at PD better than #7 at PB. #8 at PB is the best par 4 though.

[Andy Troeger]

I like #11 at PD better than #7 at PB. #8 at PB is the best par 4 though.

I thought about #11. That is the closest contest of the bunch one way or the other.

[Jay Cox]

Actually, I think the sixth hole at Pebble is fairly overrated.

Tom, I don't disagree with you about the drive.  But I think the second shot is one of the most exhilirating shots in the world; the green is one of the best on the course; and the second shot and the green work very well together because, if you get up close to the green, missing to either side is trouble for most pin placements.

[Jimmy Chandler]

I like #11 at PD better than #7 at PB. #8 at PB is the best par 4 though.

I thought about #11. That is the closest contest of the bunch one way or the other.

For those who have played both courses: how would you separate #7 at Pebble from #11 at Pac Dunes? How similar/different are the green contours, what effects do the green contours have on how these holes set up?

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