[Kalen Braley]

There are at least 4 longish walks at PD

3 green to 4 tee
11 green to 12 tee
13 green to 14 tee
17 green to 18 tee

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

There are at least 4 longish walks at PD

3 green to 4 tee
11 green to 12 tee
13 green to 14 tee
17 green to 18 tee

And like I mentioned, lower green to lower tee from 9 to 10. Upper to Upper is quite short.

[Kevin Pallier]

Thru 5, I have Pacific Dunes at 3 up.

This thread was started nearly 2 months ago and it's only gotten through the first 5 holes ?

Kalen

I have the score the same as you and whilst I see 7-10 at PB clawing back some ground the B9 at PD beats PB for mine and I see PD winning in a canter 

[Kalen Braley]

Kevin,

This is the thread that will neither finish nor die!

And if we're moving on to #6, its a tough call, so I call it AS on hole.  Thru 6, it remains PD 3 up!

[Brent Carlson]

It's time to get this thread moving again. 

Let me preface by saying that PD has been my long time #1.  Recently I had the chance to play PB for the first time, and it exceeded my expectations.  The recent changes have mostly been improvements in my eyes.

To the match...

1. PD 1 up

2. PD 1 up

3. PD 2 up

4. PD 3 up

5. PD 3 up

6. PD 3 up - two of my favorite holes

7. PD 3 up

8. PD 2 up

9. PD 1 up

10. AS

11. PD 1 up

12. PD 2 up - an underrated P5

13. PD 3 up

14. PD 2 up - very much like the challenge and green complex of PB14

15. PD 2 up - really like PD green but overall halve

16. PD 3 up - one of the most fun holes on the planet.  Match PD

to continue...

17. PD 4 up

18. PD 3 up

A comparison of these courses is tough because they are so different.  I feel that the non ocean holes at PB are good.  Looking at the pre and post work, most of the changes have improved PB IMO.  Let's hear what everyone else has in their comparison...

[Andy Troeger]

I'll finish off mine too...what the heck.

I believe that I have Pacific Dunes winning #1, 3, and 4 so far and Pebble winning 5. So PD is up 2 so far. If that's not what I said the first time, well then I've changed my mind!

Pebble wins the 6th. PD is an interesting hole, but there's no real mystery to it. You MUST get it to the right off the tee and miss the bunker, or hit a perfect approach. I admit that only having played it once that I might grow to love it, but this one's actually an easy call for me since Pebble's 6th is one of the greatest par fives I've ever seen. PD 1 up.

Pebble wins #7 too. The PD hole is a good one, but the little par three and its setting are iconic. ALL SQUARE

And Pebble wins #8 and #9--I don't think either of these are marginally close, despite good holes at Pac Dunes in both cases. There's a reason this stretch at Pebble might be the best 7 consecutive holes anywhere IMO (4-10, and especially starting at 6). Pebble 2 UP

#10 is more interesting. A really cool par three at Pac Dunes versus another great long par four at Pebble. Taken on its own merit I think Pebble would win this one too--the hole is very good, but it seems a bit similar to #9. The 10th at Pac has a great view and a fun green. I would guess its a challenging shot especially when the wind is blowing. I give the edge to Pebble again, but much closer. Pebble 3 up.

Will post the rest in a minute...

[Andy Troeger]

And starting at the 11th Pac Dunes begins its own rally...winning pretty easily (despite an underrated hole at Pebble) to get back within 2.

The 12th hole at Pac Dunes is probably the weakest on the course IMO. And the one at Pebble might be too, although I think #15 is weaker. I'm just calling it a draw and moving on. Pebble 2 up.

#13 at Pebble is another sleeper IMO, but PD's is the easy choice. Pebble 1 up.

I didn't get to see much of the 14th at PD because I blasted it right and ended up in a bunker down off #13 fairway with little/no shot. Kind of like the pros who missed the 14th at Pebble in the Open! I think my shot was my own fault--PD wins this one. ALL SQUARE

The 15th at Pebble does get my vote for weakest on the course. I enjoyed the green on the 15th at PD even though the rest of the hole wasn't that great. Pac Dunes 1 up.  Three holes to go...

[Andy Troeger]

And the 16th for me is one of the harder calls on the course. The big fall off to the right of the 16th got most of us in our group and I feel like I need to see the correct way to play the hole to really understand how tough the second shot actually plays. I could see myself really like it with more attempts, or thinking its a bit too severe. The Pebble hole is far more straightforward, but a pretty good hole with some thought required and a pretty challenging approach for a shortish hole. Going to call it a draw for lack of experience. Pac still 1 up.

The 17th to me is one of the most interesting comparisons. The hole at Pebble is iconic, but more viewer friendly on TV than in person. The green is a bit severe when firm as displayed at last year's open--but under normal conditions I like how the hole can be played in different ways depending the pin location. The 17th at PD is far different, but still a great setting and good challenge for a par three. I expect a lot of variety in preferences here, but I can't make the call. Draw again, Pac still 1 up, which means...

That it has to end in a tie for me with Pebble's 18th winning the finale. I'll admit that I've done this exercise three times since the thread started and came up with slightly different results each time. Pebble won 1 up the first time and Pac 1 up the second, now tied the third. In any case, I think the method is a bit off especially for these courses because the best holes are of such high quality. PD is perhaps a bit more consistant over the course of a round, whereas Pebble has an ebb and flow with really high moments. I think Pebble's best makes it the pick for me overall, but they both make my top ten and I would be happy to play either one of them regularly.

[Tim Bert]

I have Pacific Dunes up 3 at the end of 18 and that is my scenario where I give the benefit of the doubt to Pebble and call a few holes ties where I might actually lean toward Pebble. The opening stretch at Pacific makes all the difference to me.  Pebble swings back in the middle stretch and the two trade blows down the tail end but Pacific Dunes opens up a gap out the gate that can't be overcome, at least for my taste.

[Garland Bayley]

And the 16th for me is one of the harder calls on the course. The big fall off to the right of the 16th got most of us in our group and I feel like I need to see the correct way to play the hole to really understand how tough the second shot actually plays. I could see myself really like it with more attempts, or thinking its a bit too severe. The Pebble hole is far more straightforward, but a pretty good hole with some thought required and a pretty challenging approach for a shortish hole. Going to call it a draw for lack of experience. Pac still 1 up.

The 17th to me is one of the most interesting comparisons. The hole at Pebble is iconic, but more viewer friendly on TV than in person. The green is a bit severe when firm as displayed at last year's open--but under normal conditions I like how the hole can be played in different ways depending the pin location. The 17th at PD is far different, but still a great setting and good challenge for a par three. I expect a lot of variety in preferences here, but I can't make the call. Draw again, Pac still 1 up, which means...

That it has to end in a tie for me with Pebble's 18th winning the finale. I'll admit that I've done this exercise three times since the thread started and came up with slightly different results each time. Pebble won 1 up the first time and Pac 1 up the second, now tied the third. In any case, I think the method is a bit off especially for these courses because the best holes are of such high quality. PD is perhaps a bit more consistant over the course of a round, whereas Pebble has an ebb and flow with really high moments. I think Pebble's best makes it the pick for me overall, but they both make my top ten and I would be happy to play either one of them regularly.

OK everyone. How many are going to call 16 and 17 draws in this match up?

[Tim Bert]

I gave 16 to Pebble. 17 was one that Ianded on draw even though I was tempted to give the nod to Pacific.

[Andy Troeger]

I fully expect most people participating on this thread will probably have Pacific Dunes winning. Even if I disagree, its not beyond reason to see it that way--its a fabulous golf course. Despite all the inevitable comparisons, the courses are quite different in style, so personal preference plays a pretty big role. I would guess that familiarity with both courses helps--they strike me as courses that get better with repeat plays. I'm pretty sure this group has played a few more rounds at PD than at PB, but the counterpoint could be that's a result of liking PD better the first time. I'll guess the price has something to do with it too, and the proximity of a few other courses that are worth a trip!

Garland,
I would expect that in many circles that #17 at Pebble would win most of the time. Its one of the most famous holes in the world after all. Probably not here, but I really don't care if I'm outnumbered. Regarding #16, I was purposely noncommittal--I'd need more plays to have a strong opinion on the PD hole especially. Since you don't need to play courses to comment you can let us know your Google Earth based opinion. Inquiring minds want to know 

[Kalen Braley]

Andy,

I'm not a big fan of "elevating" holes based on how popular/known they are with the golfing masses due to Jack or Tom hitting some kind of amazing shot on them.

ANGC #18 is very well known based on all the finishes there as the last hole, but I wouldn't call it a great hole just because its well known by the TV watching base.

[Bart Bradley]

The hole by hole match play method always has limitations, but for me, it will never do justice to Pebble Beach.  The whole at Pebble is greater than its formidable parts.  

Both PB and PD are tremendous courses with some tremendous holes.  I think it speaks volumes that Andy says one time PB wins and then another time PD wins....they are both among the great courses of America.  If you love golf and love architecture, don't miss either one.   There should be no consensus which of these great courses is the best.

Bart

[Andy Troeger]

Bart,
The more interesting exercise for me was to rate every hole on each course from 1-10 and then add them up. I only did this once and didn't save the sheet of paper, but Pebble won by a few points. It was closer than I expected. Those of us that an discuss them both should be grateful for the opportunity to have seen two of the very best.

Kalen,
I absolutely agree--I didn't consider the history when evaluating the holes, which I think leaves them as being fairly similar. If you take history when comparing the two courses, its a huge benefit to Pebble across the board. If Pebble #17 was presented under Open conditions all the time, it would be lose to PD for me IMO (having not played it in that form of course). In its regular form its still a good hole and soft enough for the back pin to be viable. I do think a lot of people consider it a great hole, however, and couldn't really tell you why. They just know its #17 at Pebble Beach and its on the ocean and that's enough for them.

[Kalen Braley]

Bart,
The more interesting exercise for me was to rate every hole on each course from 1-10 and then add them up. I only did this once and didn't save the sheet of paper, but Pebble won by a few points. It was closer than I expected. Those of us that an discuss them both should be grateful for the opportunity to have seen two of the very best.

Kalen,
I absolutely agree--I didn't consider the history when evaluating the holes, which I think leaves them as being fairly similar. If you take history when comparing the two courses, its a huge benefit to Pebble across the board. If Pebble #17 was presented under Open conditions all the time, it would be lose to PD for me IMO (having not played it in that form of course). In its regular form its still a good hole and soft enough for the back pin to be viable. I do think a lot of people consider it a great hole, however, and couldn't really tell you why. They just know its #17 at Pebble Beach and its on the ocean and that's enough for them.

Andy,

Fair enough.  But when you said this in your response to Garland, you were implying that the fame mattered to you!

I would expect that in many circles that #17 at Pebble would win most of the time. Its one of the most famous holes in the world after all. Probably not here, but I really don't care if I'm outnumbered.

[Andy Troeger]

Kalen,
In retrospect, I wrote that very poorly. In my head, the "Pebble would win most of the time/famous hole, but not here" was a separate thought from the "I don't care if I'm outnumbered" thought. Of course when I blended them together without even starting a new sentence, I can see how that's not apparent to anyone that can't read my mind.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,
In retrospect, I wrote that very poorly. In my head, the "Pebble would win most of the time/famous hole, but not here" was a separate thought from the "I don't care if I'm outnumbered" thought. Of course when I blended them together without even starting a new sentence, I can see how that's not apparent to anyone that can't read my mind.

That make sense...

I do thing some holes would have that affect on me though.  For example teeing off on #1 at TOC, or getting the invite to ANGC and teeing off on #1.  No doubt there would be something extra there, just based purely on location....

[Garland Bayley]

This summer, I was lucky enough to cross two courses off my "hope to play someday" list.

In the spring, I was absolutely blown away by Pebble Beach. Everything about it exceeded my expectations. Because of heavy rain prior to my visit, the course didn't play quite the way I expected. It was so soft that it was impossible to land an approach short and have it run onto the green. Everything else about it ... the scale, the setting, the tiny greens ... far surpassed my expectations.

Yesterday, I got a chance to play Newport Country Club. It was an overcast day, 20 mph winds, humid ... a perfect setup for this seaside course. It too absolutely blew me away. From the opening hole to the climb up the 18th, I wasn't disappointed by a single hole or shot out there. With sprinklers located only at tee boxes and greens, the fairways were rock hard. On a downwind 540-yard par 5, I had an 8 iron for my second shot from 190 and rolled it up to the middle of the green. As was discussed on  a previous thread, most holes are either directly into or directly with the prevailing wind. Very few shots were affected by crosswind. Greens were in great shape but not overly fast, which was important given the strong winds.

Between the two, I would say that Pebble is obviously more jaw-droppingly dramatic. But if I were picking one course to play every day, it would be Newport without hesitation. I wish I had photos to share of Newport, but I wasn't comfortable busting out a camera as a guest. Sorry.

[Jason Topp]

I had not realized this had gotten going again.  On 5, I have not played the new PB hole but have walked it.  It seems like a standard par 3 with an angled green.  I give PD the nod on this one.

Hole 4 at Pebble Beach is one of my favorite spots on earth.  The hole at PD is excellent but I need to give the edge to PB.

I still have PD 2 up. 

I've looked ahead and was surprised at the outcome.   

1 PD 1 up
2. PD 2 up
3.  PD 3 up
4.  PD 2 up
5. PD 3 up - good par 3 vs. a standard Nicklaus template that should be angled the other direction.
6.  PD 2 up - 6 at PB is one of my favorites anywhere.  I found the PD to be a bit severe even though I know it is revered by many
7.  PD 1 up - Nothing can match that setting
8 Even - 8 at PB is one of the best in the world
9.  PB 1 up - not a close call
10.  PB 2 up
11.  PB 1 up - look and setting make this an easy choice over a pretty featureless uphill hole
12.  Even - I really like the 12th at PD, at least downwind which is the way I played it.
13.  PD - 1 up
14   Even - tough to argue with the 14th at Pebble Beach
15   Even - both are very good
16   Even - I like both. 
17   Even - I like PD a bit better but history counts
18   PB 1 up - hole has improved now that pros consider going for it in two


If given the choice to walk to the first tee of either course right now I would choose Pacific Dunes.  I was surprised several months ago when my hole by hole comparison came out the other way. 

[Jay Cox]

The more interesting exercise for me was to rate every hole on each course from 1-10 and then add them up. I only did this once and didn't save the sheet of paper, but Pebble won by a few points. It was closer than I expected. Those of us that an discuss them both should be grateful for the opportunity to have seen two of the very best.

I think Andy's idea is a really good and interesting one.  I'll give it a try:

Hole 1:  PB 5, PD 7
Hole 2:  PB 6, PD 8
Hole 3:  PB 7, PD 8
Hole 4:  PB 7, PD 9
Hole 5:  PB 8, PD 7
Hole 6:  PB 9, PD 9
Hole 7:  PB 9, PD 7
Hole 8:  PB 9, PD 7
Hole 9:  PB 9, PD 8 (lower green) or 6 (upper green)
Hole 10:  PB 8, PD 8 (upper tee) or 7 (lower tee)
Hole 11:  PB 7, PD 8
Hole 12:  PB 6, PD 6
Hole 13:  PB 6, PD 8
Hole 14:  PB 8, PD 7
Hole 15:  PB 4, PD 7
Hole 16:  PB 6, PD 7
Hole 17:  PB 7, PD 7
Hole 18:  PB 9, PD 7

PD wins 135-131 with the lower green / lower tee combo and 134-131 with the upper green / upper tee combo.  PD wins 1 up in match play with the lower green / lower tee combo and 2 up with the upper green / upper tee combo.  (Yet another example of stroke play being different from match play.)

[Jason Topp]

I think if you are doing it on scores it should be a 10 point must system like in boxing.

[Kalen Braley]

I think if you are doing it on scores it should be a 10 point must system like in boxing.

Why?  If you think a hole is so-so, why should it get 10 points just because it was the better hole?  And for that matter 9 points because it came in 2nd place.  I sure as hell wouldn't give a hole like #1 or #2 at PB 9s.

Boxing has a 9 point must system so a guy can have a couple of bad rounds and still have a chance to come back.  I don't see why same should be applied to rating holes.

[Jud_T]

Does anyone agree with me that Pac Dunes #6 is the better hole?  Setting aside, PB #6 is a very strong, fun par 5, but PD #6 is one of the great short 4's in the world IMHO...

[Jay Cox]

Does anyone agree with me that Pac Dunes #6 is the better hole?  Setting aside, PB #6 is a very strong, fun par 5, but PD #6 is one of the great short 4's in the world IMHO...

Jud, I think they are both wonderful holes that are basically impossible to compare.

I think the 6th might be the most underrated holes at Pebble Beach.  People often will talk about 8-10, or 7-10.  I love 9 and 10, but 6-8 is probably my favorite three-hole stretch.

That said, the 6th at Pacific Dunes is a phenomenal hole, especially because it seems to work in all wind directions and for players of many different playing styles and ability levels.

One other thought:  if the best holes at Pebble -- and the 6th is one of them, for me -- are no better than the best holes at Pacific Dunes, then the debate as to which course is better should not be close, because the weakest holes at Pebble are substantially weaker than the weakest holes at Pacific.

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