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Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #175 on: June 12, 2011, 02:47:06 PM »
I'm not saying it would be true for everyone, but I've lost more balls at Pebble Beach than I have at Pacific Dunes in my lifetime -- and I've played Pacific Dunes about 75 times and Pebble about 12!  At Pebble there are more opportunities to go over the cliffs, and the thick tall fescue in the roughs makes it possible to lose a ball that you've only advanced 15 feet from its previous spot.  Heck, Mike Davis and I lost a ball in the bunker face on the 3rd hole at Pebble Beach, in the media day before the last U.S. Open.

Otherwise, carry on ... I do not wish to alter the outcome of this thread, I'm just a fact-checker.

Tom you may participate if you like, in fact, I would quite enjoy that. You could most likely add more to the discussion of the merits of each hole than anyone else on this site. I have seen your little Top 25 list you posted, I know you prefer Pacific Dunes, many others do as well. The knowledge you can bring into the discussion is precisely what I would like to see, but I can understand if you would choose to stay on the sidelines.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #176 on: June 12, 2011, 06:55:05 PM »
I've been distracted and have only checked this thread a few times, but it is interesting how few people played along like they did on the Riviera vs. Sand Hills thread.  Each of those two courses is on my Top Ten list.  Same thing here.  I have Pacific Dunes #1 and Pebble #5.  I prefer Pacific because it is a much more cohesive and consistent course from tee to green, from the first to the eighteenth hole.  But I love Pebble Beach.  I mean, how can you not love Pebble?  Pebble does have three or maybe four forgettable holes, while Pacific Dunes, in my amateur assessment, has maybe one snoozer among the lot.  But Pebble has some of the most iconic, most unforgettable, most historic holes in America.  On a hole to hole comparison (a bit silly, to be sure, I'd probably have Pacific just barely win, but the margins we're talking about are pretty slim.  Two terrific golf courses.  Maybe most people would favor Pebble because of historical factors.  Maybe some would prefer Pebble because it has a more classic layout as opposed to the number of 5's and 3's at Pacific.  Maybe some just can't put a course ahead of Pebble because of the 6-10 stretch, which is ungodly good.  Personally, I think Pacific is prettier, more fun and more truly linksy than Pebble.

But I love 'em both.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jason Topp

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Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #177 on: June 13, 2011, 11:59:12 AM »
Are the bunkers installed for the last US Open help or hurt Pebble Beach #3?  I would think visually the hole would improve but strategically, I would be surprised if they help.  That rough was a bad place to be.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #178 on: June 13, 2011, 12:25:51 PM »
Why would we talk about old 5? The new 5 enhances aesthetics of the course with the additional ocean aesthetic.
Your discussion seems to try to deny that golf is played in nature and the aesthetics of nature are a significant part of the architecture.


the water comes into play, or at least must be dealt with, often. It is not really in play on 4 or 5, I can see the argument where it is not in play on 6 and 7, though I think it is off the tee, water is in play on 8 and 9, a little bit on 10, not on 17 and certainly in play on 18.


On holes  4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 17 and 18 the ocean is a hazard

I do wish you people who play Pebble Beach could actually figure out what was there. Patrick's constant Have you played .. depends on it.


Garland its called opinion. The ocean on 17 is about 15 yards away from the green, either long or left of the back portion of the green. Add to that there are bunkers both long and left of the green and I feel the ocean does not really do anything to affect the play of this hole. But that is my opinion. If Patrick wants to believe that it is a hazard and an integral part of the hole, that's fine, I can see his reasoning, even if I don't totally agree with it.

You may call it opinion, but someone can sit at home without ever going to Pebble Beach and make all the measurements necessarily to define when and where the ocean is or is not a hazard on 17, and thereby give a much better answer than either you or Patrick who have been there a few times. The "have you played the course" is in many instances a total BS question that is used by people with flawed reasoning capabilities to intimidate/denigrate the person they are discussing with. I suspect even Patrick at some level understands that, but he has found he can get away with that BS so he persists in it. What we are forced to witness is Dugger reporting on conditions at Pebble Beach as reported by people on the scene in January being denigrated by a person who has played there in only March and September. What a farce. I have always felt that people with common sense would recognize that for the farce that it is. But then they say common sense is not very common.

Furthermore, we get the absurd situation of someone who spent 2 1/2 summer months there one year posting "the course is conditioned wonderfully throughout most of the year" and stating he knows better than Dugger, because Dugger hadn't played there. Once again we see the I've been/played there as a farce, especially since in the same post he talks about witnessing footprints staying on the green after a rain. Courses "conditioned wonderfully" don't have footprints on their greens.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #179 on: June 13, 2011, 08:40:22 PM »
Are the bunkers installed for the last US Open help or hurt Pebble Beach #3?  I would think visually the hole would improve but strategically, I would be surprised if they help.  That rough was a bad place to be.

I didn't play the hole without the bunkers, but I think they are a help to the hole. In spite of what Phil Mickelson did out of the bunker last year, I think they are good penalties if you go in them. Not to mention, the mental hazard they pose from having to see them. A player choosing to play it safe off the tee now has to contend with them and must make a top quality shot. For me it made for a very tough shot since the hole plays generally into the wind (did both times I played). With a 3 wood, I wasn't sure if I could carry the inside bunker, but if I aimed right and hit the 3w, could I control the distance well enough to not end up in the long bunkers? With a driver, if I carry it over the short bunkers can I play it on a good enough line to stay out of the bunkers long? So, I think they are a very good addition to the hole. (Oh, and I must say I am quite pleased, finally, a response based on the holes in question)

Andy Troeger

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #180 on: June 13, 2011, 09:40:54 PM »
You may call it opinion, but someone can sit at home without ever going to Pebble Beach and make all the measurements necessarily to define when and where the ocean is or is not a hazard on 17, and thereby give a much better answer than either you or Patrick who have been there a few times. The "have you played the course" is in many instances a total BS question that is used by people with flawed reasoning capabilities to intimidate/denigrate the person they are discussing with.

No Garland, its that people that have played the courses you try to "analyze" know your comments are often so far off that its become silly that you continue to try to act like these measurements mean as much as being there (aka you believing hitting over the trees at Sahalee is possible or likely). Part of whether the ocean is in play on #17 depends on the location of the pin--its 20 yards closer to some positions than to others. And its a minor detail in some post that's become an argument that's barely on-topic. We're not even to the 4th hole yet.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #181 on: June 14, 2011, 12:43:32 AM »
... Part of whether the ocean is in play on #17 depends on the location of the pin--its 20 yards closer to some positions than to others. ...

Please tell the people who haven't played there something they don't know.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Andy Troeger

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #182 on: June 14, 2011, 08:05:28 AM »
... Part of whether the ocean is in play on #17 depends on the location of the pin--its 20 yards closer to some positions than to others. ...

Please tell the people who haven't played there something they don't know.


You've got 180 posts to choose from--start reading and I bet you'll learn something. Well...seems like about 30 of those posts are from you who hasn't played there, so maybe 150. I bet you'll learn something  ;)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 08:08:39 AM by Andy Troeger »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #183 on: June 14, 2011, 10:44:13 AM »
I have read all the posts as the thread progressed. Here is what I have learned. Most of the members of the website seem to favor PD over PB on holes away from the ocean. The two most notable exceptions are Jamie and Patrick. PB having 9 holes by the ocean has an advantage that will keep them in the ball game for some, but I would still estimate those favoring PD this early with comments like no contest will have PD win. The next hole, #4 will be somewhat pivotal, being on the ocean for both. I predict Jamie will not see much in the hole at PD and come down in favor of PB or perhaps another draw.

I have learned that Pat thinks he knows better than Scott McNealy who lives there. But, then we all know Pat thinks he knows better.

I have learned that Jamie thinks the ground at Pacific Dunes is dunes land and the ground at Old MacDonald is links land. A distinction without merit IMO.

EDIT: One additional note. Reading Sean Arble's thread would seem to indicated that there are some very significant personages beside Dugger and myself that disagree with Mssrs Mucci and Wall about whether and how much grass, soil, and weather count in evaluating architecture.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 10:51:13 AM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #184 on: June 14, 2011, 10:54:45 AM »
Would those claiming that Tom Doak's courses put an emphasis on the Short Game and Putting tell me how that applies at Sebonack ?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #185 on: June 14, 2011, 06:33:37 PM »
Would those claiming that Tom Doak's courses put an emphasis on the Short Game and Putting tell me how that applies at Sebonack ?

Could that be the Nicklaus influence?

How many Doak courses have you played?   ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #186 on: June 15, 2011, 09:56:32 PM »
Would those claiming that Tom Doak's courses put an emphasis on the Short Game and Putting tell me how that applies at Sebonack ?

Could that be the Nicklaus influence?

I doubt it.


How many Doak courses have you played?   ;D

A few.

But, I want to know from those claiming that Doak's courses place an emphasis on the short game and putting, exactly HOW Doak's  courses place an emphasis on the short game and putting, to the excllusion of putting an emphasis on the other aspects of the game.

It has to be one of the dumbest comments I've ever heard, implying that his courses lack systemic or universal balance


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #187 on: June 15, 2011, 11:51:26 PM »
Patrick:

I don't know if it's one of the dumbest comments I've ever heard ... I've heard some pretty dumb comments here over the past ten years!  :)

However, I do agree with you that it is sometimes frustrating when people describe my courses as being all about the short game.  I am less likely to penalize a poor drive with rough or bunkers than many architects do, but I am pretty sure that a player who gets himself out of position off the tee will pay for it later ... they can blame the green if they want, but it's their drive that really cost them the shot.  When they cry that "nobody is good enough to hold the green from that angle", they are making my point for me.

By the same token, Pebble Beach is not exactly an easy test of short game play.  When you miss a green there -- and you're bound to miss several because the greens are so small -- it is never easy to get up and down.




Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #188 on: June 16, 2011, 11:12:41 AM »
Tom Doak,

I have to believe that you forge a balanced tactical challenge that doesn't favor or disfavor any particular golfer's game nor does it favor or
 Disfavor any particular aspect of the game.

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #189 on: June 16, 2011, 05:59:15 PM »
Patrick:

I don't know if it's one of the dumbest comments I've ever heard ... I've heard some pretty dumb comments here over the past ten years!  :)

However, I do agree with you that it is sometimes frustrating when people describe my courses as being all about the short game.  I am less likely to penalize a poor drive with rough or bunkers than many architects do, but I am pretty sure that a player who gets himself out of position off the tee will pay for it later ... they can blame the green if they want, but it's their drive that really cost them the shot.  When they cry that "nobody is good enough to hold the green from that angle", they are making my point for me.

By the same token, Pebble Beach is not exactly an easy test of short game play.  When you miss a green there -- and you're bound to miss several because the greens are so small -- it is never easy to get up and down.

I think a lot of people make the mistake with Pebble to say angles and such don't matter out there. But there are a good number of holes out there where they make a huge difference in the next shot. That is overlooked by a lot of people here. Pacific does the same thing, to be sure, though I didn't notice it as much with Old Macdonald.

Patrick I suspect you are correct.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #190 on: June 16, 2011, 06:37:09 PM »
I just played Pacific for the first time this week (2 rounds). I played Pebble twice a few years ago. While the hole by hole comparison is interesting (and I would have Pacific up at tbis point) i am not qualified to do this. I tend to like a course more or less based on the whole. And for me, Pacific is a mich better course. Lots of great holes and it is hard for me to think of one didn't enjoy playing or don't remember distinctly. Even after seeing Pebble all these years on TV and playing it twice there are holes I hardly can remember.

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #191 on: June 18, 2011, 11:48:51 PM »
I'm not saying it would be true for everyone, but I've lost more balls at Pebble Beach than I have at Pacific Dunes in my lifetime -- and I've played Pacific Dunes about 75 times and Pebble about 12!  At Pebble there are more opportunities to go over the cliffs, and the thick tall fescue in the roughs makes it possible to lose a ball that you've only advanced 15 feet from its previous spot.  Heck, Mike Davis and I lost a ball in the bunker face on the 3rd hole at Pebble Beach, in the media day before the last U.S. Open.

Otherwise, carry on ... I do not wish to alter the outcome of this thread, I'm just a fact-checker.

Thanks for the reply, Tom.  I haven't played Pebble Beach, so I can't compare the two.  I did play Pacific three more times last week, and I concede I must have had a terrible driving day my first time there.  It wasn't nearly as scary as I remembered.

There were still a few places I thought could be cleared out to allow for balls to be found:

- Right of #3 fairway
- Both sides of #7
- Both sides of #15
- Right of #18. 

I would love to hear your thoughts on whether clearing out gorse/underbrush in these areas would reduce the quality of the holes in question.  Could it be that the vegetation has creeped in closer than intended in some areas?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 3 Reviews posted
« Reply #192 on: June 19, 2011, 01:37:13 PM »
Ian:

When Pacific Dunes opened, the gorse to the sides of #15 and #3 was only about knee-high, and wasn't nearly as intimidating.  But, you could still lose a ball there; the gorse isn't much closer to the fairways than it ever was, only bigger and more impenetrable.  I'm sure Mr. Keiser would agree with you that it should be removed, but at the time, I thought it was okay to have some lost-ball penalty to deter wild hitting on two very short par-5's.  I just wish we could keep the gorse cut down to the point where it was easy to cut it back a little without removing the whole area ... but gorse is not a very co-operative plant.

The trees on #7 and #18 are much thicker than they used to be, and probably need to be thinned out.  I'll look at them the next time I'm out there.


Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #193 on: June 22, 2011, 09:49:30 PM »
Well, I wouldn't want to disappoint Garland with my review of these holes. This is a comparison of two stellar holes. These are the first holes at each course to play near the ocean. But the similarities end there.

Pebble Beach, Par 4, 326 yards. This is a fantastic, very strategic short par 4. The play off the tee is to the left side of the fairway, but a fairway bunker just left of the centerline of the fairway forces the player to make a big choice. He can play left of it into a 10 or so yard wide sliver of fairway; he can play right of the bunker into a wider portion of the fairway potentially bringing the ocean into play and certainly leaving a less desirable angle to the green; he can play past the bunker either leaving a short shot from a poor angle or threading the needle up onto the front approach for the better angle; or the player can attempt to drive the green, a certain possibility given the down wind nature of the hole but one that calls for a very precise shot. For the second shot, the player is confronted with a small green with some significant undulation, and surrounded by bunkers.

Pacific Dunes, Par 4, 463 yards. Very good, long hole playing along the Pacific Ocean. Again, the hole is set up from the tee. The ocean obviously provides a significant hazard to the right. But the player does not really have a bail out area as there are bunkers the pinch in the fairway to the left. While some players are capable of carrying the ball over the bunkers given that the hole typically plays with the wind, even those players must contend with the ocean if they want to have a clear angle into the green. From short of the bunker, the player either has to play a draw into the green, aiming over the ocean and bringing that into play, or play a semi-blind shot to the left side of the green, that runs away from the player from front left to back right. From the right side of the fairway, players are left with a much more open shot to the green, being able to run the ball onto the surface. The few players who can carry the bunkers are left with wedges into the green, but given how firm the course normally plays, these shots are no bargain.

I really want to call this one a draw. These are both fantastic holes, offering 3-4 options off the tee to set up the approach shot. Both have the scenery of the ocean. But in the end, Garland is just going to have to experience disappointment on this one, because I am giving the nod to Pacific Dunes on this hole.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 11:24:53 PM by Jamie Van Gisbergen »

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #194 on: June 22, 2011, 11:18:06 PM »
Jamie:

Quote
I am giving the nob nod to Pacific Dunes on this hole.

You must really like Pacific Dunes! :o
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 11:28:14 PM by Scott Warren »

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #195 on: June 22, 2011, 11:25:57 PM »
Jamie:

Quote
I am giving the nod to Pacific Dunes on this hole.

You must really like Pacific Dunes! :o

Help me out here, it was a long day at work. I changed it out.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #196 on: June 23, 2011, 03:05:59 PM »
Congratulations Jamie. You came to a different conclusion from JKM on #4. However, undoubtedly you will pick Pebble Beach #5 over PD.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #197 on: June 23, 2011, 05:27:59 PM »
Congratulations Jamie. You came to a different conclusion from JKM on #4. However, undoubtedly you will pick Pebble Beach #5 over PD.


Would you please do me the favor of commenting on the playability of #4 at Pacific, to help us see another form of play on the hole? JK played the hole from the forward tees, his opinion of it did not really surprise me. And I may or may not pick PB over PD on #5.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #198 on: June 23, 2011, 06:06:42 PM »
Congratulations Jamie. You came to a different conclusion from JKM on #4. However, undoubtedly you will pick Pebble Beach #5 over PD.


Would you please do me the favor of commenting on the playability of #4 at Pacific, to help us see another form of play on the hole? JK played the hole from the forward tees, his opinion of it did not really surprise me. And I may or may not pick PB over PD on #5.

You can always lose a ball in the gorse. That's what I did. ;)

I think you covered the options quite well. I see it as challenge the ocean at any length, challenge the bunkers, or lay up short of the bunkers. Approach for all but the longest hitters probably is best fed in on the ground favoring being short as the ball really rolls off to the back right and the hazard.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #199 on: June 23, 2011, 09:46:56 PM »
#4 at Pacific Dunes is completely dependent on the wind direction.   Downwind it's a pussycat.  Into the wind it's a frightening beast.   #4 at Pebble is always a short par 4.   Tricky, be on your guard, but it's a lay up and wedge. 

Score one for Pacific Dunes.   

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