[Jason Topp]

I am enjoying the thread although I also would have Pacific 2 up at this point. 

1 at PD is not my favorite on the course but I think the green site is cool. 
2 at PD  2 at Pebble is similar to 500 yard holes on hundreds of other courses - with the setting being the primary distinguishing factor. 

3 and 4 make for some interesting decisions however.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm 2 up thru 2 in favor of PD as well....

P.S.  I'm guessing Jamie's "secret" is that I haven't played the course either...that being Pebble.  But I was born and raised in the bay area and have walked the course a few times and seen it otherwise more times than I can shake a stick at.  Plus I've played the TW video game and I stayed at Holiday Inn Express last night to boot!   

On to hole #3.

At least PB is competitive on this one, but I give the edge to PD #3 for a number of reasons:

1)  Not one, but two sets of centerline bunker to contend with and develop strategy.
2)  One of the coolest green complexes on the course with the right half of the green tucked in next to the dune.
3)  Clear risk reward strategy as getting in that front green side bunker when going for it in 2 is no man's land.
4)  You can play up the left side, you can play up the right side, you can do a combo of both and weave in between the bunkers.  Just so many routes and options to play that hole.

After 3, its PD 3 up!

[Tim Bert]

Tim, I too have Pacific Dunes 2 up through 2 though I'm no fan of its first hole. 

BTW, I'm not biased, just knowledgable!  I KNOW classic courses are infinitely superior to their modern counterparts!

We're long overdue for lunch.  Send me an IM with your availability next week.

Mike

IM sent.

By the way, we not only agree that PD is up 2 but also that we will disregard Rich's opinion based on video game play.

Rich - Does Tiger Woods 12 even offer a brush tee option?  If it doesn't I don't see how you can fairly evaluate the course.

[Richard Choi]

Man, I feel so much love around here...

[Garland Bayley]

Man, I feel so much love around here...

Big Bird and the Cookie Monster love you.
 

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Kalen I once stayed in a Holiday Inn Express as well. Felt instantly smarter; I thought I could fight Lyota Machida...

More on topic stuff to come once I am done with work and have satified my golf ball striking need for today.

[Jordan Wall]

I have never played Pebble Beach, except for about a million rounds of video game golf.

Listen, fellas, I'm not speaking about specifics of the course.  I'm not qualified to do so.

And nor are you, Jordan, for that matter.

Michael,

I just don't understand why you get so defensive and argumentative on this issue.

I've played Pebble several times, in fact I spent a whole summer out in Monterey and was at least walking the course three times a week.

I'm not saying I prefer Pebble or PD, both are great in their own right.  However, I don't understand why you write like you know all about Pebble Beach when you've never seen or played it.  You don't know how firm the course plays, or what shots you can play into the greens, because you've never been there.  I respect your opinion of Pacific Dunes and agree it is a great golf course but at the same time I cannot agree with everything you say about Pebble.  I'm not trying to be an ass, I just don't think your qualified to say half the things you are about Pebble, especially since most of what you're saying isn't even correct.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen I once stayed in a Holiday Inn Express as well. Felt instantly smarter; I thought I could fight Lyota Machida...

More on topic stuff to come once I am done with work and have satified my golf ball striking need for today.

Lyota Machida is childs play.

Bring on Shogun Rua or Jon Jones!! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

[size=10point]
Garland,

In an answer to the statement:[/b][/size]

"The houses at Pebble are not very much in play, only on #12 do I think a player really is able to hit into them. And they are not exactly ramshackle barns or something either."

You stated:

Then why do the people that live on the course complain about all the golf balls that end up on their property?


Do you have the names of the people that live on the course who are making these alleged complaints ?
And, when did they make these complaints ?
Were they rare, random complaints, or universal, constant complaints ?

The houses are well offset from the course, and I've played it more than a few times, so I'm curious to know where, exactly, this is occuring

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Dugger,

If you've never played Pebble Beach, then how can you speak with authority on the playing conditions at Pebble Beach ?

In a limited reference, I can only say that on abou the two dozen times I've played there over the years I never experienced the conditions you allude to.  While it's true that most of my play was in September or March, I never once experienced the conditions you state are universally pervasive.   Upon what do you base your claim on, since it's not personal experience ?

[Michael Dugger]

By your rationale, Mr. Mucci, if I wasn't in NYC on 9/11 then how could I comment on the WTC collapsing?

Fescue turf, big greens, rumpled ground and exposed sand: Pacific Dunes

Rye / Poa turf, small greens, broad shapes and cliffs edge: Pebble Beach

Have fun, I'm outta here...

[Patrick_Mucci]

By your rationale, Mr. Mucci, if I wasn't in NYC on 9/11 then how could I comment on the WTC collapsing?


That's a very poor and very flawed analogy, but, that's your specialty.

You could comment on the collapse, but, you couldn't comment on the actual experience of being in the midst of the activity at the WTC site during the incident.

Just the same as you could comment on Neil Armstrong walking on the moon, you couldn't comment on the actual experience of walking on the moon.

And, with regard to playing Pebble Beach, you can't comment, with any credibility or authority ,on what it's like to play Pebble Beach.

Fescue turf, big greens, rumpled ground and exposed sand: Pacific Dunes

Rye / Poa turf, small greens, broad shapes and cliffs edge: Pebble Beach

Well, there you go, you've summarized play on those two courses.
Just think of all lthe money you've saved golfers who were going to travel to play those two courses

Have fun, I'm outta here...

I hope you're on your way to Pebble Beach

[Michael Dugger]

By your rationale, Mr. Mucci, if I wasn't in NYC on 9/11 then how could I comment on the WTC collapsing?


That's a very poor and very flawed analogy, but, that's your specialty.

You could comment on the collapse, but, you couldn't comment on the actual experience of being in the midst of the activity at the WTC site during the incident.

Just the same as you could comment on Neil Armstrong walking on the moon, you couldn't comment on the actual experience of walking on the moon.

And, with regard to playing Pebble Beach, you can't comment, with any credibility or authority ,on what it's like to play Pebble Beach.

Fescue turf, big greens, rumpled ground and exposed sand: Pacific Dunes

Rye / Poa turf, small greens, broad shapes and cliffs edge: Pebble Beach

Well, there you go, you've summarized play on those two courses.
Just think of all lthe money you've saved golfers who were going to travel to play those two courses

Have fun, I'm outta here...

I hope you're on your way to Pebble Beach

This is what I wrote, Mooch.

"A golf writer far more intelligent than I has opined whether or not Pebble Beach would be much of a course if you somehow removed the ocean.  Additionally, golf professionals have bellyached for years about the potential mushy conditions at Pebble."

Can a course that's only in optimal condition some of the time really be "better" than one that offers year round fast and firm? 

Or do I need to play the course in order to be allowed to cite golf professional's opinions?"

[Michael Dugger]

The Pebble Beach rough, which greenskeepers have been unable to cut because of the moisture in the soil, was so thick and mushy on the left side of the 1st fairway that Mike Reid had to declare a lost ball, costing him two strokes, as he had to take a penalty stroke and then go back to the teebox. Reid eventually made double-bogey 6 en route to a 5- over-par 77. "This rough would make the

USGA (U.S. Golf Association) blush," Reid said later.

"Soggy," said Lehman.

"Mucky," said Azinger.

"Mushy," said Zinger.

"Gross," added Woods.

By Friday afternoon rumors were running rampant that the final two rounds were in jeopardy because of another big storm brewing out in the Pacific. About this time an innocuous gray trailer parked off the 17-Mile Drive between Pebble and Spyglass was the most important piece of real estate in Del Monte Forest.

[Garland Bayley]

...I don't understand why you write like you know all about Pebble Beach when you've never seen or played it.

It is easy to write like one knows quite a bit about Pebble Beach (you don't even know all about Pebble Beach), because it, and the play of it is constantly being discussed on TV (AT&T, US Open, Champions Tour), and written about in the printed press. Now, if you think you know more about it than Johnny Miller, and others that have commented and reported on it, then we don't understand how you could know so much.

 You don't know how firm the course plays, or what shots you can play into the greens, because you've never been there.  I respect your opinion of Pacific Dunes and agree it is a great golf course but at the same time I cannot agree with everything you say about Pebble.  I'm not trying to be an ass,

Then stop being one.

I just don't think your qualified to say half the things you are about Pebble, especially since most of what you're saying isn't even correct.

What exactly has he written that isn't even correct? Make sure you quantify it and verify it conforms to any standard definition of most.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

...
The houses at Pebble are not very much in play, only on #12 do I think a player really is able to hit into them. And they are not exactly ramshackle barns or something either.

Then why do the people that live on the course complain about all the golf balls that end up on their property?

...
And as far as "genuine linksland" well, I'll go into that later in detail, but lets just say that it might be linksland, but I don't consider Pacific Dunes to be a links course, at least not one like The Old Course or Old Macdonald. That will be detailed later on.

Given the proximity of PD and OM, what you say is nearly a geological impossibility.


...Its not designed to be a bump-and-run golf course like Pacific or Old Macdonald; thats variety in design, not flaw.

On what possible authority could you say that? Neville and Egan ever comment on that?

Have you seen the difference in terrain at Pacific Dunes and Old Macdonald? OM is, micro-geographically, on a much different piece of property than is PD. Pacific winds through dunes and coastal forests while OM is mostly on a flatish piece of what I consider to be true linksland. It is a mostly flat piece of land that connects the coastal dunes back to the inland forest areas. Pacific occupies what I would consider to be dunesland. Geologically they are essentially the same, and they play the same, but I consider OM to be a Links course and PD to be a Coastal Sandhills course. {I break golf course types into more than the British 3 of Linksland, Heathland, and Parkland; perhaps I will detail those at a later date on new thread}

As far as the authority of saying that Pebble was not intended to be a bump-and-run course, I do think that ground is an option on most holes, but unless the turf conditions, bunker configurations, and green complexes have been extraordinarily changed over the years, I can't see there ever being an intent for the course to be played by bouncing the ball onto the green by landing the ball 40 yards out and letting it trickle; at Pacific that is possible and I feel like that was the intent on some holes.


Micheal those comments are from like 1998 right? Name some other times that was the case? That was also the year that they had to complete the tournament in August, name another time that has happened. That tournament is played during the rainy season in Cali; your points are invalid. If they were valid, courses north of the Mason-Dixon line would automatically be outright dumps because they many if not most, are quite literally unplayable for 4-6 months of the year.

[Garland Bayley]

Do you have the names of the people that live on the course who are making these alleged complaints ? Yep!
...
The houses are well offset from the course, and I've played it more than a few times, Having played the course does not qualify you to assess this situation. Play with someone who's playing partners are accustomed to yelling Fore! Next county!

[Stan Dodd]

Jordan,
If you walked Pebble Beach 3 times a week without playing during your summer on the peninsula, I would say you were bored or are a bull shitter.

[Patrick_Mucci]

By your rationale, Mr. Mucci, if I wasn't in NYC on 9/11 then how could I comment on the WTC collapsing?


That's a very poor and very flawed analogy, but, that's your specialty.

You could comment on the collapse, but, you couldn't comment on the actual experience of being in the midst of the activity at the WTC site during the incident.

Just the same as you could comment on Neil Armstrong walking on the moon, you couldn't comment on the actual experience of walking on the moon.

And, with regard to playing Pebble Beach, you can't comment, with any credibility or authority ,on what it's like to play Pebble Beach.

Fescue turf, big greens, rumpled ground and exposed sand: Pacific Dunes

Rye / Poa turf, small greens, broad shapes and cliffs edge: Pebble Beach

Well, there you go, you've summarized play on those two courses.
Just think of all lthe money you've saved golfers who were going to travel to play those two courses

Have fun, I'm outta here...

I hope you're on your way to Pebble Beach

This is what I wrote, Mooch.

"A golf writer far more intelligent than I has opined whether or not Pebble Beach would be much of a course if you somehow removed the ocean.

When you say "golf writer" I take that to mean that he writes about tournaments, not architecture.
It's one of the dumbest staements I've ever heard about a golf course.
Pebble Beach is a great course, on the face of the architecture, without the backdrop of the Pacific, the same Pacific that serves as the backdrop at Pacific Dunes  

Additionally, golf professionals have bellyached for years about the potential mushy conditions at Pebble."

What does "potentially" mushy mean ?
It's either mushy or it isn't.
Every course is potentially mushy.

Frank Hannigan told me a long while ago, that the worst people to listen to about golf courses were the competing Professional Golfers because they all tended to be agenda driven and based their complaints on how their game was affected, with most complaints coming after unsatisfactory rounds, not good to great rounds.

Can a course that's only in optimal condition some of the time really be "better" than one that offers year round fast and firm? 

ABSOLUTELY.

Just look at ANGC or Seminole in the summer.
Location and climate are major factors that have NOTHING to do with the architecture.

Or do I need to play the course in order to be allowed to cite golf professional's opinions?"

Without playing the course, how do you know that those opiniions are valid ?
and, are you telling me that playing conditions at PD are perfect 365 days a year and if those same Professionals were playing in poor conditions that they wouldn't complain ?

You're out of your league when you render an opinion on the play of a course you've never played

While youre at it, why don't you tell me how Seminole plays in January, versus April, and ANGC iin December versys March, and how they compare to playing Pinehurset in October, Deember, April and August.

[Kalen Braley]

Pat mucci said:

"Just look at ANGC or Seminole in the summer.
Location and climate are major factors that have NOTHING to do with the architecture"

Where is that infamous Huckaby picture of Pebble with the sharpie taken to it!!   

[Garland Bayley]

Jordan,
If you walked Pebble Beach 3 times a week without playing during your summer on the peninsula, I would say you were bored or are a bull shitter.

Or, a caddy.

Stan, wake up and smell the coffee.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen,

Anyone that denies the merits of the architecture of the holes at Pebble Beach doesn't understand architecture.

The Pacific is pretty to look at, but the quality of the golf holds transcends the vistas.

[Garland Bayley]

Pat mucci said:

"Just look at ANGC or Seminole in the summer.
Location and climate are major factors that have NOTHING to do with the architecture"

...

Well, Mr. Mucci, an architect would probably engineer a course so it didn't play mushy when it rains in the winter. A designer, would simply lay out the design, and let the weather happen.

What is your definition of architecture?
 

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Anyone that denies the merits of the architecture of the holes at Pebble Beach doesn't understand architecture.

The Pacific is pretty to look at, but the quality of the golf holds transcends the vistas.

pat,

Perhaps.

But I would like to think that the views/vista are tied into the architecture...they are inseperable.  We know several arch'ies have said they try to maximize off course features. 

So I can only deduce something like the ocean, in the case of Pebble, is explicitly a part of the architecture.

[JMEvensky]

Pat mucci said:

"Just look at ANGC or Seminole in the summer.
Location and climate are major factors that have NOTHING to do with the architecture"

Where is that infamous Huckaby picture of Pebble with the sharpie taken to it!!   

The Huckaby / Mucci argument about the importance of the scenery was a long running classic. Huckaby is another poster whose comments/opinions are missed,IMO.

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