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Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #200 on: June 23, 2011, 10:29:23 PM »
#4 at Pacific Dunes is completely dependent on the wind direction.   Downwind it's a pussycat.  Into the wind it's a frightening beast.   #4 at Pebble is always a short par 4.   Tricky, be on your guard, but it's a lay up and wedge. 

Score one for Pacific Dunes.   

I wouldn't call 4 a pussycat downwind. Its still 462 yards with bunkers and ocean pinching in the landing area. It takes a fair amount of skill to play the hole properly. Same with Pebble. What I like about both holes is that they offer the player numerous options to play the hole. They offer options of play for the average player, giving them the chance to make par with a properly played shot, but also provide a challenge for the better player. Into the wind, well 4 at Pacific just pretty much becomes a par 5, but 3 can be easily played as a par 4.

Andy Troeger

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #201 on: June 24, 2011, 09:14:17 AM »
Jamie--great reviews of both holes. I don't really have much to add.

I think #4 at Pebble might be the most underrated hole on the course. Even with that, #4 at Pacific is hard to beat. Pac 3 up through 4 for me, but Pebble's rally is getting closer!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #202 on: June 24, 2011, 09:29:02 AM »
Downwind and firm, a short knocker like me hit driver 8 iron a couple of years ago. Downwind makes a huge difference. That was from the middle tee.

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #203 on: June 24, 2011, 09:54:01 PM »
Downwind and firm, a short knocker like me hit driver 8 iron a couple of years ago. Downwind makes a huge difference. That was from the middle tee.

Certainly downwind makes a big difference, I mean, I hit GW into the green, I think; but that doesn't make the hole a pushover. Even for me, I miss 1/2 degree right and I'm probably down the cliff somewhere, 1/2 degree left and I'm in the wheat, groove low on the face or a little pop up and a little left and I'm probably in the bunker. So, if I pull the driver, I have to hit a very precise shot or I'm pretty much in a spot I can't recover from. 3 wood ends up with the same thing, left and its in the bunkers for sure and a fraction too far right and its down the cliff. Pebble requires real precision as well, although at least Pebble has a viable lay-up option since you could hit a 4 or 5 iron out over the cross bunker and short of the fairway bunker.

Andy among this crowd, 15 might be the most underrated; very few on here have good things to say about it, but I think its a good hole, not great, but certainly not some huge negative for the course. And yes, Pebble is about to shift into high gear, although I think one of my picks on an upcoming hole will really generate some conversation.

Andy Troeger

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #204 on: June 25, 2011, 01:15:59 AM »
Jamie,
I won't spoil 15 at this point, but its the one hole at Pebble I didn't really care for. We can save the details until we get there.

And again no details yet, but I think your pick on #6 is the one I'll be most interested to read, and my guess as to the one you meant.

Anthony Gray

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #205 on: June 25, 2011, 10:31:44 AM »
Jamie--great reviews of both holes. I don't really have much to add.

I think #4 at Pebble might be the most underrated hole on the course. Even with that, #4 at Pacific is hard to beat. Pac 3 up through 4 for me, but Pebble's rally is getting closer!

  I agree with Andy.4 at PB is a wonderful par 4.Short and sweet with one of the smallest greens to be found.The thing I like the most is the feeling of excitment you get from fisrt seeing the meeting of land and sea.

  Anthony


Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #206 on: June 26, 2011, 08:48:50 PM »
Jamie--great reviews of both holes. I don't really have much to add.

I think #4 at Pebble might be the most underrated hole on the course. Even with that, #4 at Pacific is hard to beat. Pac 3 up through 4 for me, but Pebble's rally is getting closer!

  I agree with Andy.4 at PB is a wonderful par 4.Short and sweet with one of the smallest greens to be found.The thing I like the most is the feeling of excitment you get from fisrt seeing the meeting of land and sea.

  Anthony



One thing that I find great about both courses is that they give you a small taste of the ocean prior to taking you down to it for play. You can see it briefly on #2 at Pebble and I am fairly certain you can see the ocean from #2 green at Pacific. Of course #3 at both play down towards the ocean, giving you a full view of the ocean prior to moving you to #4 playing right along side the ocean.

Andy, 6 was not that one I was talking about, though that will be a very good comparison. And interesting you don't like 15, I suspect we will have some very good discussion once we get there. That might take a while though, as I don't intend to post any holes the week of and after the Majors and certainly not during the Presidents Cup. So, this might take a while.

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #207 on: July 04, 2011, 11:20:46 PM »
I have a couple of minutes here, so I thought I would bring this back up for a minute. I don't have time to do a good review of #5, so I won't do them a disservice and make a poor one. I would like to go back and discuss the general character of the first 4 holes and look at them as a whole. Both courses, IMO, start off with semi-mundane par 4's, work then to two very good pars 5-4 in succession, order different for each course, and then go down to the ocean for fantastic par 4 playing down on the cliffs. Thus far, I have Pacific Dunes 1 up in the comparisons, obviously that lead will not hold, as I suppose that some might say Pebble comes out ahead on every hole from 6-10; I do not say that though.

I have said on here before that often times the best of the courses have very odd options, sometimes options that even the designer never intended to be there. I think #4 at Pacific Dunes is one of those holes. Certainly #4 at Pebble is reachable off the tee, not architects intent to be sure, but a great part of the hole. I think, from the Gold tees, in the prevailing summer wind, #4 at Pacific might be as well. Yes, I know that sounds insane, according to the online card its 410 from those tees. But I consider that when I played on Saturday in North Carolina, on bermuda fairways, and with a helping wind not as strong as the winds often times seen at Bandon, I hit a drive that wound up rolling out to 385 yards; I had about 220 left into a 605 yard hole, and knocked it on the green, BTW. So it occurs to me, that during a tournament of some type, it could be set up to play the hole at the normal Gold marker and give players the option to try to hit the green, granted its not a very intelligent option to take, but nonetheless it would be there for the players. Just a thought, and a possible option of play that I am sure Mr. Doak did not consider in the design of the hole.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #208 on: July 06, 2011, 12:59:24 PM »
I can't wait till we get to #6...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #209 on: July 06, 2011, 11:36:16 PM »
I can't wait till we get to #6...

Be my guest to start it up if you like. I'm quite busy now, but if you want to go ahead and start 6, I can work to make time these next couple of days to post up 5 and 6 at the same time.

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 4 Reviews posted
« Reply #210 on: July 08, 2011, 06:37:03 PM »
You know I haven't been around much, but its interesting how no one is posting here anymore since myself and the rest of the guys who've never played Pebble stopped posting...hmmm.   ::) I figured this would generate more sustained interest.

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 5 Reviews posted
« Reply #211 on: July 14, 2011, 11:40:44 PM »
This should stir up some discussion, as now we get to the first of the par 3's on either course.

First, the holes are somewhat similar. They each play similar yardages on the scorecard. They each play with the prevailing wind. And they each occupy exceptional settings, Pebble by the ocean overlooking the 6th and 7th holes, and Pacific nestled comfortably in the dunes as though it has been there for a thousand years.

Pebble Beach, par 3, 192 yards: As a disclaimer, I have not played the old 5th. I think this hole is a very good hole. It does get a very slight bonus for playing along the water as it does/can come into play. The green is somewhat gently contoured, but from the tee it has the shape of a reverse Redan without the kick slope. This is the only par 3 at Pebble that realistically allows the player to hit a fade off the tee. The bunkers are also very well places, one short and right for a player who might fan one off the tee or underclub to a back pin, one long for the player who does not fade the ball as he expects or pulls it or just plainly hits it long, and two long and right for someone who hits a fade that comes in a little too hot and runs through the green. The ocean also comes into play here, though only in the players mind. Given that the preferred shot shape is a fade, the player must guard against hitting too large a fade and having it drift into the ocean, I don't think this is a very likely outcome, but one that the player must consider as he is planning his shot.

Pacific Dunes, par 3, 199 yards: This hole plays generally downwind and also slightly uphill. Hole has bunkers right and left of the centerline of the green and one bunker quite short of the green and right. The two flanking the green are obviously there to punish shots struck off line, the one short I am not certain about, I should think it is there to punish a less than well executed run up shot that bounces sharply right off the mounds short of the green. This green, to me, is one of the more boldly contoured greens on the course with a rather large ridge separating the front and back sections; quite fitting given RSG this week, the green seems to be rather like #3 at RSG and given what I saw today at the Open (on TV) it would seem they may tend to play somewhat similar. This is another top notch par 3.

These two make for a tough comparison. Both holes likely call for the same club to be used, but the shot types can be widely varied. Pebble can either be played as a straight high shot, high fade, or, for those with this shot and guts enough to try, a low running fade onto the green. Pacific can also be played with the high shot landing somewhat near the hole, straight shot landing well short of the hole on the green and running out, or a pitch-and-run style shot, though the latter might be rather problematic. All in all, I have to call this one a draw because they both present abundant options for the player and work very well maintaining the flow of the round.

Draw: Pacific 1 up

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 5 Reviews posted
« Reply #212 on: July 15, 2011, 12:05:08 AM »
I really like Pebble a lot, but the more I play Pacific Dunes the more I think the opening stretch is the strength of the course (I was originally a sucker for the back nine).  The weakest hole in the first five at Pacific, in my opinion, is the 1st and it gets stacked up against a mediocre opener at Pebble.  I have Pacific 5 up through 5.  The closest I could see it at this point would be Pacific 3 up with a couple of pushes but in my mind it is 5 up.  That's going to be plenty to sustain it through the best stretch at Pebble because Pacific also has some good holes in that stretch.

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 5 Reviews posted
« Reply #213 on: July 15, 2011, 12:19:44 AM »
Tim what about 5 at Pacific, specifically, has you putting it above 5 at Pebble?

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 5 Reviews posted
« Reply #214 on: July 15, 2011, 12:24:17 AM »
All in all, I have to call this one a draw because they both present abundant options for the player and work very well maintaining the flow of the round.

I don't really see many options on Pebble Beach #5 much less abundant ones.  I guess a bailout short left is an option and in his book on his golf architecture Nicklaus talks about adding a kick plate left late in the design process that would allow a golfer to bounce one into the green.  However I think you need US Open firmness to have that option really work.

Also, I would bet that a far greater range of clubs is used on PD #5 than on PB #5.  Even though they are the same distance, with no wind PD will allow you to hit less club because of how much firmer the ground is and also the wind can blow much harder at PD and in either direction.  
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 5 Reviews posted
« Reply #215 on: July 15, 2011, 09:23:37 AM »
Jamie - pacific dunes 5 is probably my 2nd favorite par 3 on the course behind 11 and if I could force myself to completely overlook the aesthetics of 11 (guilty as charged) it might be my favorite to actually play. I love the shape of the green, which to this day I still can't adequately describe.  I love the firmness of the green and the landing area in front of it. I've hit shots tha land short of the green, hit the kick plate, and run to the very back after I was convinced it would stop rolling. At the same time the back can also be attacked by landing it on the green where the kick forward isn't as pronounced. Then to get anywhere near a front pin you almost have to hit a high shot and land it on the green as playing short will propel the ball past the hole. I always look forward to playing the hole.

Pebble 5, despite the wonderful view and Oceanside venue, felt more like a connector of two great holes than a great hole in itself. Like you, I never played the original but wish I had based on many comments I have read comparing the two. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 5 Reviews posted
« Reply #216 on: July 15, 2011, 10:37:27 AM »
Well, you can't yank your tee shot over a wall and o.b. at Pacific Dunes.

Really, I don't think there is anything wrong with the hole that was built at Pebble Beach, but it just feels like it is shoe-horned into a site that wasn't quite big enough.  The walk to the next tee is really awkward, too, even though this analysis does not take such things into account.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 5 Reviews posted
« Reply #217 on: July 15, 2011, 10:50:59 AM »
I had not realized this had gotten going again.  On 5, I have not played the new PB hole but have walked it.  It seems like a standard par 3 with an angled green.  I give PD the nod on this one.

Hole 4 at Pebble Beach is one of my favorite spots on earth.  The hole at PD is excellent but I need to give the edge to PB.

I still have PD 2 up. 

I've looked ahead and was surprised at the outcome.   

Andy Troeger

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 5 Reviews posted
« Reply #218 on: July 15, 2011, 11:23:05 AM »
I evidently like the new 5th at Pebble quite a bit more than most. I think the green at PD is slightly more interesting of these two holes, but the ocean creates more interest at Pebble. Personally, the setting and the extra bit of fear factor that the ocean provides at Pebble is enough to give it the nod, but Pac Dunes is still 2 up for me at this point.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 5 Reviews posted
« Reply #219 on: July 15, 2011, 11:32:39 AM »
...This is the only par 3 at Pebble that realistically allows the player to hit a fade off the tee. ...

Gee, I wonder who designed this one.  ???

Well, you can't yank your tee shot over a wall and o.b. at Pacific Dunes.
...

Shocking since Patrick virtually assured me there was no place to go OB at Pebble.  :o

Jamie,

Hole six is going to be a tough decision. I recommend another draw.  ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Anthony Gray

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 5 Reviews posted
« Reply #220 on: July 15, 2011, 12:11:59 PM »


  Architectually it has to be Pacific Dunes because of the way you can play your ball 20 yards left of the green and watch it finish by the pin. Not many par 3s are made that way.

  Anthony

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 5 Reviews posted
« Reply #221 on: July 15, 2011, 02:15:26 PM »
Well, you can't yank your tee shot over a wall and o.b. at Pacific Dunes.

Really, I don't think there is anything wrong with the hole that was built at Pebble Beach, but it just feels like it is shoe-horned into a site that wasn't quite big enough.  The walk to the next tee is really awkward, too, even though this analysis does not take such things into account.


I was waiting for someone to bring up the walk to the next tee and quite ironic that it was you; I all ready had my response prepared. If I were to take "points" off for the walk back to the 6th tee, then I'd have to dock points at Pacific for the walk from 9 to 10 lower green to lower tee, 11 to 12 where you literally have to walk through the teeing area from 5, and 12 to 13 where its probably the same distance through the dunes as from 5 to 6 at Pebble, or at least it seemed like it. So, maybe we'll just let the routing oddity that the new 5th creates alone for just now.  :)

And yes Garland, we know Jack Nicklaus designed the 5th at Pebble. But in reality, look at the other par 3's. 7 is a straight hole, I can't think of anyone who can draw or fade a wedge on command, you just play it with the wind. 12 is a true draw hole and 17 could be played either way, but the preferred shot really should be a draw.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 5 Reviews posted
« Reply #222 on: July 15, 2011, 02:22:06 PM »
Jamie:

If you really believe that Pebble Beach is a better walk than Pacific Dunes, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 5 Reviews posted
« Reply #223 on: July 15, 2011, 02:25:43 PM »
Thru 5, I have Pacific Dunes at 3 up.

I played my tee ball short of the green at PD and that was to get to a back pin.  The options there are very neat.

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 5 Reviews posted
« Reply #224 on: July 15, 2011, 02:31:00 PM »
Jamie:

If you really believe that Pebble Beach is a better walk than Pacific Dunes, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I never said I thought Pebble was a better walk overall, but they both have some fairly long walks from green to tee. To me, some of the worst walks on the course at Pebble are on 8, 9, and 10 to the Blue tees on 9 and 10 from the previous greens. Neither course though are 10's in walkability, in my opinion.

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