[Kevin Pallier]

For those who have experienced other Doak courses where does this sit?

Ash

I still think Pacific Dunes and Old Macdonald are the best Doak courses I've seen followed by Barnbougle Dunes. I'd have SAB in behind them.

Kyle

Thanks for the photo tour.

[David_Elvins]

Ash,

Of the ones I have played:
Barnbougle
Pacific Dunes
OldMacDonald
St Andrews Beach
Stone Eagle.

The site plays a big part in the rankings.  StAB is never going to match the site that the architect was presented with at Barnbougle or Pac Dunes, so it is going to be hard to match the quality of those courses, given that the architect is the same. 

With a bit of a fine tune, it could easily surpass Old MacDonald, IMO. 

[Jim Nugent]

David, what fine tuning do you think would help SAB?  btw, the course looks quite cool from the pictures. 

[David_Elvins]

David, what fine tuning do you think would help SAB?  btw, the course looks quite cool from the pictures.  

Jim,

I have posted along these lines before and a couple of people took unreasonable exception, so I will start by saying that I think all courses should be reviewed by the architect after 5-10 years of playing.  It worked for most of the world's top courses.

A recurring theme in this thread has been the poor vegetation management and there is definitely room for a lot of improvement  in this regard.  

The greens on the course are quite extreme (not in a bad way, I am just describing their style)  and my personal view is that no-one could get the playability exactly  right first time round.  In my honest opinion, I think the following greens are eligible for small tweaks - 3, 4, 6, 7, 14, 16, 17, and 18.  If I owned the course I would not want to personally change any of these greens, but I would like to ask the architect if he honestly thought they could not be improved.  

The landing area of 13 and 17 should also be eligible for review.  

Having said all that, I am sure that some of the above general comments could also be applied to Old macDonald, so stating that St Andrews Beach could surpss Old Mac may be a bit off the mark since there may be scope for improvement at old mac too!

[Michael Whitaker]

For those who have experienced other Doak courses where does this sit?

Ash,

I have played five Doak courses this year. If all things were equal (cost, travel, etc) I would most desire to play them again in the following order:

1 Pacific Dunes           Tie
1 Barnbougle Dunes
3 Old MacDonald
4 St Andrews Beach
5 Cape Kidnappers

All five are fantastic courses, but I found StAB and CK less fun than the others due to the more difficult golf and walks involved.

The first three I would play every week and be happy. The last two... once or twice a year would suffice.

Now, this is all based on only one round on StAB & CK, while I had two on each of the others so, that may be affecting my judgement... but, I don't think so. St AB and CK were very difficult for an average player like me and required way too many uphill shots (and climbs) for my taste. I'm sure more accomplished golfers appreciate the challenge presented by these courses, but I felt they were a bit more like work than recreation. 

[Michael Whitaker]

I still think Pacific Dunes and Old Macdonald are the best Doak courses I've seen...

Old McDonald is so unique... IMHO, it is unlike any other course on the planet. I have never played another course that looks or feels like it. It is VERY special and I almost put it on top of of my Doak "Fun" rankings. But, I currently place it just a teeny-tiny bit behind Barnbougle and Pac Dunes because it is SO unique I'm not 100% sure I would want to play it as often.

[Ash Towe]

Gentleman,

Thanks for the feedback, some very interesting opinions.

I am looking forward to making my opinion later this year.

[Mark_F]

I am looking forward to making my opinion later this year.

Just as long as it is the correct one, Ash.

[Sean_A]

As one who once spent two hours camped at the top of that fairway, watching lots of balls off the tee, I've got some sort of experience on this hole few might possess.

Actually, Matt, you have experience of watching the hole for two hours, nothing more or less

I think we have reached consensus that much of the fairway cut repels balls sideways.  How often does a ball repelling fairway feature on a sandbelt course? Or an Australian course of quality?

National Old and Moonah?  As these quotes from the club's own website attest:

Strong players have a definite advantage here since they can reach a flatter section of the fairway, whilst weaker drives will tend to roll backwards.

3rd Hole Old

Long drivers will take advantage of the downslope to set up a pitch to the green. Others will be left with a difficult second shot from a downhill lie.

11th Hole Old.

A semi blind tee shot is particularly challenging for shorter hitters who play to the heavily contoured narrower section of fairway.

National Moonah 9.

How many quality holes fit this description?

Off the top of my head, 4 Rye, 13 Silloth on Solway, 3 and 5 Lost Farm, 3 and 9 Barnbougle Dunes, 3rd (from memory)Macrihanish.

There's areas to the left of that fairway that result in lost balls - there is no question. That is more the case now than ever with flora growth around the course, and limited attention to such.

They never should have vegetated the area in the manner they did, but that was something out of Doak/Clayton control.

I was going to say that a hog's back fairway (and green for that matter) is a classic design element not in the least uncommon on older GB&I courses.  It is easy to get this wrong (see Addinton's 8th as an unmitigated disaster) as obviously extra width is necessary even with light rough about and what constitutes appropriate extra width is a matter of debate.  I tend to want to err on the side of perhaps more than necessary width especially in blind shot situations, but if Scott's descriptions are correct that would seem ample width.  On these sorts of holes many are going to claim foul if they think a decent shot was hit and yet never seen again.  Would a simple matter of a pole help in this instance?

This is an interesting thread and much appreciated Kyle and Co. - cheers.

Ciao

[Tim_Weiman]

Kyle:

Thanks very much for this thread. My heart will always be in Ballybunion and North Berwick would probably get my vote for the most fun course to play, but for me St Andrews Beach might have the most shots I'd enjoy playing over and over again of any course in the world.

[Bruce Hardie]

Just to add another couple of whacks on this equine zombie.

Played with SGA here yesterday in 'normal' conditions (sunny, dry and moderate breeze).  35 players managed a combined total of 28 stableford points on the 13th. A straw poll suggested at least a dozen balls lost on the left. Myself included in this list as sent a ball out to the right of the post, but a slightly overcooked draw (this was by no means a hook) meant that while I went through the motions of a provisional, I knew I was never going to see that one again.

Very few of the larger group were intimately familiar with the course. None of the other 3 in my group were, and they were all shocked when I told them I knew I was never going to see my first ball again.

This is the course's new target demographic. Should they be accommodated a bit more?

[Mike_Clayton]

Bruce,

13 is a really easy hole to make a 5. There is nothing around the green to mess you up and the second shot is wide and downhill.
Obviously the tee shot is demanding of a good drive.
Do you think players would do better if they played it as a par five and thought of it as an easy hole - as opposed to a brute to make 4.
I have never thought of that fairway as hard to hit because it is very wide - but so many seem to struggle there.
If the new target demographic is public course players it is hard to see where the driving could be made any easier in terms of not losing balls. Most holes its like driving into a football field if just hitting short grass is the object.

[David_Elvins]

Mike,

I do think though, that the ideal driving line at 13 is very hard to pick for the first time player.  It looks like there is heaps more room on the left than there really is.

It is a really good hole but the tee shot is not ideal on a public course. 

[Scott Warren]

Could the marker post not just be moved 10m to the right to steer players away from the more severe side?

[Bruce Hardie]

The scoring average of this group showed making 6 was something of an achievement.

The inexperienced or the inattentive (and those who knew what they were supposed to do and blew it - ie. me) always seem to go too far left. Making that area a bit less lose-able is undoubtedly a big effort to fill or lift a bit more landing area, so perhaps some more idiot proofing of the view might help.

They now have 2 posts in the side of the hill, one blue and one white which gives a bit of a goal post like aiming device, but maybe the bulk of the players need more. Perhaps it's a great big pole indicating the centre, or a bush or 2 on the left side of the hill just to push everyone a few degrees right. Actually I like the bush idea. Something that says "there is no usable fairway over here - go further right".

I'm happy enough to make 5, but it's bloody tough when you're 3 off the tee.

[Scott Warren]

Bruce:

The inexperienced or the inattentive (and those who knew what they were supposed to do and blew it - ie. me) always seem to go too far left. Making that area a bit less lose-able is undoubtedly a big effort to fill or lift a bit more landing area, so perhaps some more idiot proofing of the view might help.

Given you have been playing to gargantuan fairways all day and know from experience what's over there on the left, why is it not appropriate that you lost your ball as a result of the shot you hit?

It's one shot on one hole on perhaps the widest courses on the Australian mainland.

[Bruce Hardie]

To separate the general from the particular: I deserved my lost ball. I don't think the first or second timers necessarily do.

[Mark_F]

This is the course's new target demographic. Should they be accommodated a bit more?

No. F@#k them.

They now have 2 posts in the side of the hill, one blue and one white which gives a bit of a goal post like aiming device, but maybe the bulk of the players need more. Perhaps it's a great big pole indicating the centre, or a bush or 2 on the left side of the hill just to push everyone a few degrees right. Actually I like the bush idea. Something that says "there is no usable fairway over here - go further right".

I vote for the Brazilian look.  A centre strip of fairway leading down to the hill should be more closely mown, providing a landing point many will be familiar with.

[Mike_Clayton]

Dave,

True - 13 is not ideal for a public course full of first timers. But as far as a driving course and the relationship to the ease of finding balls the rest of it is ideal.

[Bruce Hardie]

It's one nit - everyone seemed to have a good time. Even the ones that limped in with 21 points.  Most golfers find it hard to separate the quality of the course vs the quality of their play on the day(if you are to believe the threads around here), but this place is good enough to make that differentiation easier.

You guys should mix with the hoi polloi more often -there's all sorts of golfers out there.

[Ben Attwood]

I decided to play St Andrews beach when I visited Melbourne, mainly because of this thread. I thought the course was fantastic and I thoroughly enjoyed my round. In particular I loved the green complexes and really enjoyed putting and thinking about recovery shots when the green was missed.

I least enjoyed driving here as the combination of wide fairways and obvious target areas failed to capture my imagination. Most of the time the whole fairway was visible from the tee and it was often quite wide. It may play differently in the summer but when I played it last week there were only a couple of drives that really stimulated me. For this reason I actually loved the 13th and the 3rd where there was a degree of trepidation about which was the safe line off the tee.

I just wish I could play the course every week!

[Tim_Weiman]

Ben,

Thanks for bringing back this thread. Of all Tom Doak's courses, St. Andrews Beach is probably my favorite. Number 2 has to make any all world list.

[Steve Howe]

This thread is the reason for me stumbling upon GCA.com.
 Now living in Japan for the past three years and not getting many opportunities for golf I wanted to re-live some of the great times I spent on this course. I was fortunate enough to hold playing rights at St Andrews Beach in 2007/08 just before it all hit the fan, as far as being a private club goes. I lived and worked about 10 minutes from the course and literally had the entire place to myself on many evenings - the golf manager gave me the code to lock the front gate so she could go home and leave me out on the course. It was pretty apparent that was a state of affairs that couldn't last .

My favorite part of the course was after playing the fabulous 2nd hole, walking over the ridge and into the valley containing the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 12th holes. I've often thought about why that is, as it's not the most 'spectacular' view you will see on a golf course. I think it's just the real sense of golf being a journey over hills, through valleys and across ridges that this section of the course gave me. Like a purely struck 3-iron, it really hits the tuning fork in the loins

[Kyle Henderson]

Steve & Ben,
I have a huge smile on my face at this moment. It's great to know that this thread actually brought someone to this website, and someone else to the featured course. I am extremely gratified. Thank you for sharing!

The other participants in this thread really stepped up to the plate in sharing their intimate knowledge of the course. SAB is a special place and it was thrilling to learn so much about its creation and evolution during its short lifespan. Perhaps the most shocking revelation for me is that  (as far as I can tell) Mark Saltzman has not been there yet.

[Mark_F]

Perhaps the most shocking revelation for me is that  (as far as I can tell) Mark Saltzman has not been there yet.

Kyle,

No, but Mayhugh has!  Wasn't he the Saltzman before Saltzman became Mayhugh?

I least enjoyed driving here as the combination of wide fairways and obvious target areas failed to capture my imagination. Most of the time the whole fairway was visible from the tee and it was often quite wide. 

That is an interesting perspective, Ben.  Many people wonder what the correct line on the 5th is supposed to be.  Some people, including an architect who used to post on here, thought the 10th was best approached from the left.  Is the 9th best approached from the top of the ridge or the valley further on? Which side of the 1st you hit to depends on what you are able to achieve.

It's a pity the proper tee for the 14th was never built.  It gave quite a different look to the hole. 

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