[Scott Warren]

Matt,

much of the fairway cut repels balls sideways. How often does a ball repelling fairway feature on an Australian course of quality?

Off the top of my head:

The 5th at NSWGC is also blind in the DZ and repels balls to both sides. Last time I was there Pup's ball and mine landed a few metres apart and were on opposite sides of the fairway.

The fairway of the 12th at Peninsula (North) seems to repel balls quite effectively, though it is not blind.

Does the 4th fairway on RM West not send the ball sideways a lot?

Overseas, I can think of a number of drives in the style of 13 at StAB but even more severe that are part of brilliant holes - 4th at Rye for starters. 6th at Fishers Island (also uphill and semi-blind with a forced carry). The second shot on the par five 13th at Silloth is uphill and blind to a severe hogsback.

All great holes and great shots and all more severe than that shot at StAB. Furthermore, all those courses offer less respite on other holes than StAB does.

[Matthew Mollica]

Scott, you saw both balls land in a blind landing zone?

The holes you mention at NSW, RM and Peninsula do not deflect balls with the vigour of the fairway at 13 St. AB.
I mean REPEL, not gently nudge. I'm talking about balls I've seen go 40m sideways on a crumpled and crowned fairway.

Not a few metres.

Mark, I'm surprised you'd employ The National's website as a reliable source!

In any case, none of those holes feature the combined design elements of crumpled fairway, crowned fairway, and blindness from the tee. Nor would any of them provide an approach in excess of 200m as often as 13 St AB. 9 Moonah and 11 Old see a wedge in hand with full green visibility. 11 Old repels balls to rough areas, which is one facet which frustrates many.

I feel it's important to point out at this point, I love the course! And I don't mind 13 all that much, contrary to what some may think reading my posts. I do however see the shortcomings with 13.

MM

[Brian Walshe]

I enjoy 2 a lot more than 14.  I like both holes but 2 just seems to offer so many alternative routes to the hole all with a distinct set of risks and rewards.  I've tried probably 6 or 7 different lines and club combinations on 2 but only ever hit driver at the same spot on 14.

I'm not a fan of 13.  Mark is correct in that potentially moving the tee to where it was originally planned would improve the hole.  As it is the hole is a little like a double whack for the shorter hitter.  Not only can they not get home but as Matty points out the fairway in the landing area for them has a significant hogsback.  In the landing area in discussion here you have about 20 paces of width with the rest of the fairway sloping to either side.  People saying it's 60 or 80m wide need to get off Google Earth and see it with their own eyes.  That or wait for Google Earth Topographic.  Once you drive past the hogsback it flattens out significantly and longer hitters might not even notice the bit of fairway in question as they stride past it.  I suppose I'm just a fan of allowing a safer if longer alternate route for the lesser player to get home in 3 on a very long par 4 rather than giving them by far the hardest tee shot on the course.  Everytime I've played the hole I just get the feeling that the tee shot was an after thought as the hole seems to lack a continuity that the rest of the course has.

[Kyle Henderson]

The 15th is perhaps a bit less memorable than its siblings -- it is certain to be less controversial in our circles than the 13th -- with a wide, right-turning fairway taking players 361 meters to a green tucked against the pictured knoll.


Unless my memory fails me, the approach plays (you guessed it) a bit uphill. Yet, despite the hill on the right, the left side of the green is higher. Thus, most approaches, recovery shots and putts will drift toward the right side of the green.

[Ben Stephens]

Here is my take of hole 15 - I felt it was a bit bland and something was missing


Tee shot


Fairway

Cheers
Ben

[David_Elvins]

I'm not a fan of 13... I suppose I'm just a fan of allowing a safer if longer alternate route for the lesser player to get home in 3 on a very long par 4 rather than giving them by far the hardest tee shot on the course.

I think at the end of the day it comes down to proportion.

I don't think the tee shot is perfect.  The hazard on the left side is blind and can be severe. 

But I will never understand how anyone can describe it as a poor hole because of this feature. 

Most of the world's great golf holes are not perfect for everyone. 

[Tom_Doak]

Kyle:

The 15th hole is indeed the plainest in the bunch.  We thought about building a cross bunker at the start of the fairway or something built into the dune on the right, but ultimately decided those would just punish the poor player and make no difference to the good player.  In the landing area, we had to do a fair amount of work to provide any visibility at all -- the hole used to play up and over a bit of a ridge at 325 yards from the tee, which we knocked down and pushed back toward the tee -- but that work did not leave us a good opportunity to create a bunker or other feature.

It is by no means the easiest hole in the bunch.  The green is rather small and easy to miss, and getting up and down from the hollows to either side is fairly difficult.  I was happy to let that be enough for this hole.

[Bruce Hardie]

Scott,

Balls that land in the strip you are talking about never finish in the rough - only marginal shots miss.
And what does 'dead' mean
Left and right of 15 at NSW is dead - i.e lost or unplayable.
There are no unplayable lies at 13 off the fairway and a lost ball here is a lost ball on 90% of holes on the sandbelt.

I can say that every drive i have ever hit off the tee has finished exactly where i thought it would. There are not too many surprises up there.
You have to hit a great drive to reach in two shots - to reach in three you can almost hit it anywhere - within reason.

Perhaps dead is a little melodramatic, but at the bottom of that gulch on the left reaching the green in 3 becomes a feat. I suspect you are good enough and long enough to comfortably sail past the danger area we are referring to here. I think someone in my group has been down there almost every time I've played it - sometimes it's me.

[Mark_F]

The holes you mention at NSW, RM and Peninsula do not deflect balls with the vigour of the fairway at 13 St. AB.
I mean REPEL, not gently nudge. I'm talking about balls I've seen go 40m sideways on a crumpled and crowned fairway.

The only reason a ball isn't repelled forty metres sideways on Peninsula North 12 is because there isn't forty metres of fairway to the right of the hogsback, MM.

Mark, I'm surprised you'd employ The National's website as a reliable source!

Are you saying those hole descriptions are inaccurate, Matt?  Shameful stuff.

In any case, none of those holes feature the combined design elements of crumpled fairway, crowned fairway, and blindness from the tee. Nor would any of them provide an approach in excess of 200m as often as 13 St AB.

How do you reckon the average player fares on this 390 metre hole, MM?  The vast majority of average players would have 200 metres into this green, where, tsk, tsk, you can't even see the bottom of the pin.

I feel it's important to point out at this point, I love the course! And I don't mind 13 all that much, contrary to what some may think reading my posts. I do however see the shortcomings with 13.

It would be interesting to know if the 13th fairway is as it is because that is what the architects wanted, or whether they were unable to spend a few more days with the heavy equipment.  

[Mark_F]

I think someone in my group has been down there almost every time I've played it - sometimes it's me.

That's quite surprising, Bruce.  I would have thought a man of your length would easily sail past the trouble.

[Bruce Hardie]

I'm pretty flat though Mark. I think I land right in the big contours area and rattle around a bit.

[Matthew Mollica]

Mark, your points on #3 at The National (Old) are well made.  It is a tough hole indeed.

The forced carry is however less than 200m, and although visually imposing, it's wide, played slightly downhill, into a bowled totally visible fairway. The second shot is uphill, bordered by OOB left and tea-tree right. An uphill, semi-blind, daunting shot of considerable length (sometimes 180m + for some), and often played into the wind. So many may suggest it too has short-comings.

Mind you, finding fault with holes on nearby courses little to refute the critical assessment of St. AB 13!

MM

[Brian Walshe]

Mark,

Excellent post to highlight the issue I raised.  On National Old 3 Trent Jones Jnr actually created a bowl short of the ridge line to provide somewhere for the shorter hitter to get their drive to if they were unable to carry it all the way to the fairway proper.  The bowl was design to be forgiving in that it will hold the ball in rather than deflecting it elsewhere.  Obviously from the bowl there is no way mere mortals can get home so you'll see another bowl like area was created just past and to the right of the last bunker before the upslope which leaves you around 100m out from the green.  Thus although it is a very daunting 390m for shorter hitters the designer created a safer alternate route for them to get home in 3 without diminishing the challenge to the better player.  I think the comparison was very astute in highlighting the issue with St Andrews Beach 13 that has been raised.

[Mark_F]

Mind you, finding fault with holes on nearby courses little to refute the critical assessment of St. AB 13!

It wasn't meant to refute or distract from the criticism of St AB 13, Matt.  13 is a difficult hole, but probably the only really difficult hole there.  (The approach shots into 3 and 10 are obviously difficult.)  My point is that 1) Nat Old and Moonah are considerably more difficult for the average player than St Andrews Beach is, and 2) that all three courses are what they are.  

[Tom_Doak]

Do you guys spell it "whine" or "whinge" in Australia? 

[Scott Warren]

Tom,

It's spelled M-E-L-B-O-U-R-N-I-A-N, but it's pronounced "whinger"

[Kevin Pallier]

I don't think the tee shot is perfect.  The hazard on the left side is blind and can be severe.  

But I will never understand how anyone can describe it as a poor hole because of this feature.  

Most of the world's great golf holes are not perfect for everyone.  

David

Probably because most of the worlds great holes don't have too many deficiencies by definition ?

If the LZ wasn't so severe and blind and leads to junk on the left then we wouldn't be talking about it would we ? The fact that it is and in my experiences at SAB plays into the wind detracts from the positives of the rest of the hole ie: the cool unbunkered green site.

[David_Elvins]

I don't think the tee shot is perfect.  The hazard on the left side is blind and can be severe.  

But I will never understand how anyone can describe it as a poor hole because of this feature.  

Most of the world's great golf holes are not perfect for everyone.  

David

Probably because most of the worlds great holes don't have too many deficiencies by definition ?

If the LZ wasn't so severe and blind and leads to junk on the left then we wouldn't be talking about it would we ? The fact that it is and in my experiences at SAB plays into the wind detracts from the positives of the rest of the hole ie: the cool unbunkered green site.

Kevin,
I think anyone can pick holes in the world's best holes can be criticised in the manner that Brian criticises this hole.   How does the average player go trying to hit the 21 metre wide sloping fairway at 4 rmw.  Is the front bunker at 15 at kh fair for the average player?  How does an average player hold the 12th green at Augusta. How do they get-out of the road bunker? And on and on and on.

[Kyle Henderson]

I think someone in my group has been down there almost every time I've played it - sometimes it's me.

That's quite surprising, Bruce.  I would have thought a man of your length would easily sail past the trouble.

Mark,
There is no established correlation between a man's length and the distance he can drive a golf ball.

[Kyle Henderson]

At the 16th tee, golfers are confronted with the final, downhill par 3 of 197 meters.
Big bombers that can generate unearthly spin might try directly for the green, but most players will be better served using the slope short and right (near the maintenance cart) to kick their shots aboard, as the putting surface loves to feed shots toward the back edge.


The imposing bunker found short and left is even deeper and broader than it seems from the tee, as evidenced by my scale-providing host.


Here is a look at the putting contours and the fronting “kick plate” from behind the hole. The teeing grounds are seen near the horizon up on the right.

[Bryan Izatt]

Some more pics.

A big hole.  From the tee it looks like a Redan, albeit downhill.  From the front the green doesn't appear to tilt back, but from Kyle's picture from behind it does.  Is the area behind the right bunker part of the green?  Pinnable?

[Bruce Hardie]

I don't think anyone will ever call 16 their favourite hole and I think we can all accept why it is the way it is.

The right hand greenside bunker or short right can present some pretty easy up and down opportunities for those that fail to run on successfully. The left hand miss is in even more trouble than a similar miss on 11.

Look left when you play this hole though, and hope that Fingal may come to pass some day.

[Mark_F]

 

It's spelled M-E-L-B-O-U-R-N-I-A-N, but it's pronounced "whinger"

Scott,

We have to whinge down here.  Otherwise all you Sydneysiders would be heading down South to Paradise, and then are too many of you here already.

On National Old 3 Trent Jones Jnr actually created a bowl short of the ridge line to provide somewhere for the shorter hitter to get their drive to if they were unable to carry it all the way to the fairway proper.  The bowl was design to be forgiving in that it will hold the ball in rather than deflecting it elsewhere.  Obviously from the bowl there is no way mere mortals can get home so you'll see another bowl like area was created just past and to the right of the last bunker before the upslope which leaves you around 100m out from the green.  Thus although it is a very daunting 390m for shorter hitters the designer created a safer alternate route for them to get home in 3 without diminishing the challenge to the better player.  I think the comparison was very astute in highlighting the issue with St Andrews Beach 13 that has been raised.

Brian,

That sounds suspiciously like containment bowls to me.

Given that virtually every other two or three shot hole at St Andrews Beach has a reasonably easy drive for the lesser player, don't you think it is robbing them not to provide a challenge?  Having a bowl or something to contain the drive just means they could bunt it around the course without once truly being tested.  (The 15th is perhaps the only other hole with a reasonably difficult drive for the average player). Given that the average player either fades or slices, at least they are hitting the correct shot shape to hold the fairway, assuming they don't hit it too far left. 

I would rather have the fairway as is, warts and all, providing a challenging conundrum to solve, than artificial earthmoving designed to ensure fairness. 

15th Hole: Not much comment about this hole.  It is probably in most people's list of the two or three lesser holes on the course, but I really like it.  From the tee in Ben's photo it is fairly uninspiring, but from the tee further back and right (360 metres)it is a really cool hole.  The flag can be seen to the right, luring golfers in the wrong direction.  It requires a strong, well shaped and accurate drive between or past the ridgeline to have a clear view of the green, but there is some dead ground in front of the green that sees many approaches pull up short.

The green appears fairly modest, but there is more slope than it looks.  A bit like five, it is reasonably easy to par, very easy to bogey, and difficult to score a birdie.  I will be interested to get David Elvins' view on this. 

16th Hole Is easily the worst hole on the course.  The bunker left is horrible, grossly misshapen and out of proportion with the green and surrounding land.  It is also too easy to chunk a shot over the ridge and have your ball trundle onto the green, whilst a better player can hit it a trifle too strong and be in the crap down the hill on the left.

I am not sure what they could have done here, but it needs a complete rethink.

[Brian Phillips]

.

[Ben Stephens]

Here is my take of Hole 16 - there was a right to left crosswind which made the hole more difficult!


Tee shot


View to front of green if short everything kicks to the left side


My friend playing from inbetween the two right bunkers and the green slopes away from him!

Cheers
Ben

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