[Steve Kline]

There are some here that say we should stop using the pencil and card and just play golf. I have never understood that. What's the point of playing golf then? I must confess that I am an extreme pencil and card guy. I always know what my score is. I always try to shoot as low as I can. And, I especially do so when I get an invite to some place special. Perhaps it is because I have a chance to shoot under par anywhere I go. Or, maybe there is just something wrong with me.

However, for the first time I can remember I didn't know my score this weekend. I started the round off as usual. I finished the front nine 3 over. So, I didn't stop keeping score because I was playing bad. But, the weather was perfect. The company and conversation was fantastic. The architecture and atmosphere were off the charts.

The place was Ballyneal. This was my second trip to Ballyneal. Since I am a pencil and card guy I talked about the course being easy after my first trip there last August. But,there has to be something special about a course/club that can break a guy like me out of a two decade plus habit of needing to know my score at all times. As I played the back nine of the third round of the day with one Jim Colton I just got lost in the moment. The only score from that nine I remember was the eagle I made on 16. It was my first there and it was three perfectly played shots. Other than that I can't tell what score I made on any other hole that nine. We just teed it up wherever. The next day I even found a spot for 13 that Jim had not played from - just left of the 12th green - and it gave a really cool visual to the hole, bringing the first center line bunker really into play. By the end of this trip to Ballyneal I forgot about keeping score and started thinking about how many different ways the holes could be played and how many different teeing locations I could find. Even though I metntally knew it, this trip it struck me in a deeper way that on every shot around the green I had at least four to five options and many times even more than that.

I came away thinking that Ballyneal must be the perfect members course. It's a close as you can get to making up your own course every day. I don't see how anyone could ever get tired of playing there.

[Jim Colton]

Steve,

I thought you were sure to start a thread stating Ballyneal is actually easier with the wind than without it after dropping a ho-hum 67 in a three-clubber. It was certainly fun to watch.

Jim

[Scott Warren]

Sounds like golfing heaven, Steve. Thanks for sharing.

[Steve Kline]

I thought about it but I didn't want to upset Doak after I saw he was on vacation in Paris. 

[Brent Hutto]

Playing to shoot a good medal score is all about minimizing big numbers. Avoid penalties, take no risk that costs you more than a stroke, minimize mistakes, you can't win it on one hole but you can lose it, blah, blah, blah. In other words, exactly what most of us spend forty hours a week doing. In my job for instance, there's almost nothing I can do to truly "excel" other than churn out as much work as possible without having errors in the results.

So I don't care to do that for four more hours on the golf course. Whoever decreed that golf is about shooting the best possible medal score was a fool. Yet millions of golfers truly believe that. I guess some people just like abuse, even when it is self-inflicted.

[Steve Kline]

Brent - the problem for me is that I can shoot under par anywhere as Jim so kindly pointed out. So I can excel at my score. I think the 67 I shot earlier in the day is a pseudo course record. I have had three of those. It's hard to get away from the socre mentality when that is possible. And, because I still play a lot of tournament golf.

I think it says something about the architecture and the "rules" at Ballyneal that I forgot about score. It's never happened anywhere else - TOC, PV, Riviera, Pinehurst, etc. I've played a lot of inspiring places. I think the two most significant reasons from a golf perspective are the incredible short game options at Ballyneal and the lack of tee markers. Both encourage you to experiment, to try things differently, to take on a challenge for the sake of the challenge and not the end result.

Certainly my playing companion helped too. Jim doesn't have the scorecard mentality. And, we were just having a great conversation about a variety of topics. Hitting golf shots was almost getting in the way of what we were talking about. But, I have played with a lot of great people that have never kept me from focusing on my score before.

[Tim Bert]

I am generally a pencil and scorecard guy, but not for  the same reason as you.  I will never break par. I am a numbers guy and it would be very difficult to not know my score at any given moment.  I am always scorekeeping even when I am not trying.   I love match play, but I still always know my score (even if it becomes an approximated one due to picking up or an unexpected lost ball where I don't go back and play from the original spot.  My quest (when I haven't lost a ball) throughout my golfing days has always been to break 90 or 80, depending upon my game at the time.  

My only point in posting this is that the first time I experienced a round at a significant course where I not only stopped counting the beans but had no earthly idea what I shot was at Ballyneal with Jim. Actually we played 45 that day and I don't know what my score was for any given 9 hole stretch. It might have been because my game was ugly that day and I had previously checked the box of breaking 90 at Ballyneal, but I will tell you playing poorly alone doesn't usually allow my mind the luxury of letting go of the score.

[Brent Hutto]

Steve,

If you are what I'd call a "good player", meaning someone who can shoot around par or better from tournament tees, it may well be that playing for a medal score is the only good way to know where you stand. Of course your experience indicates a good way to shoot great medal scores is to forget that you're trying to shoot a great medal score...just one of the many ways in which golf is a damned confounding thing to be any good at!

But I think it's yet another way in which the 98% of golfers who aren't "good players" do themselves a mischief by basing their standards on what is best for the other 2%. A 12-handicapper playing every round of his life in a stroke-play mindset is just as wrong-headed (in my opinion) as that guy insisting on playing every round from the 7,150 yard way-back tees. Or wanting his club's course that he has never honestly broken 80 on to be toughened up with taller rough, narrower fairways and double-cut and rolled greens. That guy doesn't really know the game he's playing, mistaking his gimme-putt, two-off-the-first-tee, sorta, kinda 81 for the same thing as a better player is doing.

P.S. The closest I've ever come to breaking 80 was ruined by a fellow I was playing with who started tellilng me on the 16th tee that "All you need is three bogeys to break 80". Then on the 17th tee "Finish par, par and you've still got a 79". Then on the 18th fairway "Well if you can reach the green from here and make the putt you'll salvage your 80 anyway". I'm like Tim, I can't play without knowing somewhere in the back of my mind the tally on every shot. The best I can do is ignore it for a while on a good day. Not with a helpful coach bending my ear, I can't.

[Harris Nepon]

Steve,

I to keep score every round to make sure I can input a handicap. I'm a competitive person and I don't understand playing golf for anything other than the best score possible or to win tournament or a match.

That being said Ballyneal is a totally different place from anything I've played. While there you can't help but embrace the match play atmosphere. With that comes the sense of playing each individual hole separate from each other. Score doesn’t really matter there, just as long as you win the match.

I also totally agree with your description of the best member’s course. We played 5 rounds when I was there and never once played the same hole. It's hard to explain just how much fun Ballyneal really is.

[Jim Nelson]

Steve, I have always found this concept interesting, so thanks for bringing it up.  One of the other factors at Ballyneal not mentioned is the lack of slope and course ratings.  You can't post a score, much like when golfers travel to the UK.  Also, you don't really have a handicap for the same reason.  We basically pick a general number and go from there.

On a more general note, I was talking with a golfer from England, and he said that all of us in the US were slaves to the USGA and too concerned with medal play, scores and handicaps.  He expressed that most golf in the UK was match play, but my questions was how to keep matches fair with different levels of players.  He then explained a match where when a player falls a couple of holes behind (2 0r 3) then he gets a stroke on every hole until he gets within one of his opponent.  Four of us tried that, both in individual and fourball matches, and had a blast.  I can assure you no one playing that day had any idea of their score.  In fact, we try to get together once a year, playing for a couple of US dollar coins which are held by the winner, and so the  competition for the Adams coin and Quincy coin was begun.

Those who post from GB&I, any thoughts on the US slavish devotion to score?

[John Kavanaugh]

Good players keep score because it is easier to count to four than twenty three.  Anytime I am more than four over par I need to go to the scorecard to know what I shot, if I am less than four over I know.

note:  We putt everything out because three putts cost an additional $2 each.

[Brent Hutto]

Jim,

That is the first game I suggest when playing a match with someone I don't normally play with. I think Tony Muldoon has referred to it as "Sunningdale Rules" or something like that. If you're two or more holes down you get a stroke. No handicaps needed.

Now obviously it's insufficient for a match between a 15-handicapper and a +2 but then again it's hard for normal handicapping to make that sort of mismatch viable. I've found playing off anywhere from 17 to 20 that even against 8, 9, 10 index opponents it has two effects. It almost guarantees the game will make it as far as at least the 16th hole or so and it also gives the more skilled player about a 80-90% chance of winning.

Which I think is fair. If a guy that's 10 strokes better than me wants to give me a game I think as the weaker player I ought to have a steep hill to climb, right? The better player ought to have some edge. If you an 18 plays an 8 with full strokes I'd say it's about a 60% chance for the better player to win a net match. I like "Sunningdale" better even if it means I'm usually more likely to end up buying the beer at the end.

But the main advantage is you don't need to know indices or anything else. You just shake hands and tee it up, the handicapping is basically automatic.

[Jim Nelson]

Brent, thanks for the info.  Now I can stop calling it the "funny game someone told me about from England".  I agree with your general analysis and agree that it is perfect when you really don't know the other golfer.  Really how many handicaps are that accurate.  If you post all scores and don't play at Ballyneal, then fine, but most people fudge it a lot.

[Jim Colton]

I do agree with John to some extent here. It's pretty easy to know what you're shooting when you're a within a few of par +/-. Or at least that's what I vaguely recall from what seems like a previous life. And I'll admit to trying to post a good number if I find that I've got a good round going after 12 holes or so.

[Steve Kline]

Steve,

But I think it's yet another way in which the 98% of golfers who aren't "good players" do themselves a mischief by basing their standards on what is best for the other 2%. A 12-handicapper playing every round of his life in a stroke-play mindset is just as wrong-headed (in my opinion) as that guy insisting on playing every round from the 7,150 yard way-back tees. Or wanting his club's course that he has never honestly broken 80 on to be toughened up with taller rough, narrower fairways and double-cut and rolled greens. That guy doesn't really know the game he's playing, mistaking his gimme-putt, two-off-the-first-tee, sorta, kinda 81 for the same thing as a better player is doing.

I totally agree with this.

[Kirk Gill]

Brent, I very much agree with your statement, but perhaps with one caveat. On a course that I play often, I know what I've scored there, and usually know my best play on any individual hole, and beating that score on that hole or on the entire course is always a treat. But often when I play, I'm out to have the best possible time, and that isn't necessarily all about score for me - especially when I'm playing a "dream" course. In that situation, I'm likely to go for the heroic shot, to aim at that sucker pin, just because missing won't really ruin my day and making the shot will be something I'll remember forever.........

But Steve - I'll never be as good a player as you are, and maybe the approach I'm talking about is a reason why. Sounds like Ballyneal was an amazing experience for you......and you played well anyway, even though score wasn't utmost in your mind.

[Steve Kline]

I do agree with John to some extent here. It's pretty easy to know what you're shooting when you're a within a few of par +/-. Or at least that's what I vaguely recall from what seems like a previous life. And I'll admit to trying to post a good number if I find that I've got a good round going after 12 holes or so.

I'm quite sure if I was under par heading into that back nine I wouldn't have forgot my score. But it's not like I was playing terribly. I bet I still shot in the mid 70s.

So...is there any thing else at Ballyneal other than what I have mentioned that seems to make more of us able to forget our score? And, since those of us that have had that happen at Ballyneal seemed to love that it did happen, wouldn't golf be better if other courses embraced the things at Ballyneal that make it happen? Wouldn't this accomplish what we've been talking about in the learn from skiing thread and what the PGA and USGA are trying to do with the play it forward campaign? Instead of this other stuff maybe we should just adopt the Ballyneal philosophy.

[Steve Kline]

But Steve - I'll never be as good a player as you are, and maybe the approach I'm talking about is a reason why. Sounds like Ballyneal was an amazing experience for you......and you played well anyway, even though score wasn't utmost in your mind.

After my one match in the Mid-Am and this experience at Ballyneal it seems pretty clear to me that the preferred form of play is match play. While I didn't forget my score in the match at the Mid-Am I was close to it.

[Jim Colton]

I do agree with John to some extent here. It's pretty easy to know what you're shooting when you're a within a few of par +/-. Or at least that's what I vaguely recall from what seems like a previous life. And I'll admit to trying to post a good number if I find that I've got a good round going after 12 holes or so.

I'm quite sure if I was under par heading into that back nine I wouldn't have forgot my score. But it's not like I was playing terribly. I bet I still shot in the mid 70s.

So...is there any thing else at Ballyneal other than what I have mentioned that seems to make more of us able to forget our score? And, since those of us that have had that happen at Ballyneal seemed to love that it did happen, wouldn't golf be better if other courses embraced the things at Ballyneal that make it happen? Wouldn't this accomplish what we've been talking about in the learn from skiing thread and what the PGA and USGA are trying to do with the play it forward campaign? Instead of this other stuff maybe we should just adopt the Ballyneal philosophy.

Steve,

  I doubt other courses will scrap tee markers and course ratings anytime soon, but one thing I've done in many cases when playing new courses is just ask the caddie to put us on what they think is the best/most interesting tee box for a given hole. It's not quite the total liberation you get at BN, but it's a step in the right direction.

 Jim

  attached is pic of "Primal" Steve after his "boring" 67. Schulte and I remarked that given all those short game options, it was astonishing that you were able to pick the right one nearly every time. Ballyneal is still baffling to me after 100+ rounds.

 

[Jim Eder]

Steve,

Congrats on a terrific round at an amazing place!!  Very well done!! 67 is stellar.

I think a lot of good can come from forgetting about score. It can heighten the enjoyment factor and even possibly ease the tension and help one play better (the swing tends to be freer). IMO, one can appreciate the golf course a bit more by not grinding out the score and enjoy the surroundings and the people you are playing with. Sometimes it is needed to lose yourself in the wonders of golf and the golf course and to escape from the reality of the world.

[Jud_T]

I think it's a struggle for any American golfer to completely forget about score.  But a valiant struggle nevertheless....

[Andy Hodson]

Man it bugs me when playing a four ball match and someone asks me what score I had on a hole. I know immediately that this guy's more interested in his score than our match.

[Steve Kline]

Jim - I agree that it is unlikely that anyone will scrap tee markers but Pine Needles just had a day with a 15-inch cup to make the game more fun. But, this fundamentally changes the game to me. Removing tee markers doesn't change the game and perhaps even makes it more fun than a larger hole - there is no adventure in a larger hole but no tee markers brings more adventure into the game. So, perhaps Golf Digest or whoever promoted the larger hole at Pine Needles should do something at a course where the tee markers are removed and the golfers are encourage to tee off from wherever they want.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think alot of people quit keeping score at Ballyneal after the 3rd three putt or first pick up after three putts.  It is not about where you tee the ball that matters it is the close to impossible nature of finishing every hole without eventually picking up a four footer.  This of course is based on a stimp around 10.  It is the best slow green course I have ever played.

[John Kavanaugh]

Man it bugs me when playing a four ball match and someone asks me what score I had on a hole. I know immediately that this guy's more interested in his score than our match.

How do you know if you beat a guy on a hole without knowing his score?

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