[nandoal]

I would like to know everybody 5 best courses in the world that you have played?

[John_D._Bernhardt]

TOC, Royal Dornoch, Royal County Down, Cypress Point, Pebble Beach.     I have trouble separating Seminole, San Francisco GC as well as Cruden Bay and 4 or 5 others from the top club for me.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I have no response to this thread. I also do not wish to have a response to this thread.

As a first time poster, please take no offense to my tepid response. It's just me being on the tad snobby side.

(Industry Hills and Robinson Ranch? ? ?)

[Tim_Weiman]

Tommy:

I'll give a response to your non response.  A don't think Robinson Ranch is in the top five in LA much less the world.  Go for Rec Park instead.  80,000 people a year can't be wrong.

[Don_Mahaffey]

My top 5 so far,

TOC
LA North
Riveria
Carnoustie
Tie 5th, Western gails (I know it not one of the big boys, but those holes that run right along the dunes are awesome)
Apache Stronghold

[Stan Dodd]

Cypress Point
Royal Cornoch
San Francisco Golf Club
Pebble Beach
Old Course, Cruden Bay, Carnoustie

[Bob_Huntley]

Tommy N.

Don't frighten the new man away. If he stays he will learn to differentiate between what we consider good and indifferent. I remember starting out thinking that any place that had green grass and a flag in the hole was a great course.

[Tim_Weiman]

Bob Huntley:

Tommy and I had a conversation last night about this and I wound sending a private e mail to Nandoal on this.

You are exactly right that we want to welcome more people.  We want greater geographic diversity (especially more European).  We want more golf industry folks (both architects and superintendents).  We want more people with insight into famous courses and/or new project.

In short, we want to be welcoming.

But, like Tommy, I found myself turned off by this question.  Does it matter that my top five would look like PV, CP, NGLA, Merion and so on?  Have I learned anything if you tell me your list?

What makes more sense is to encourage sharing something interesting about some name course that people may not have been aware of.  Don't you think?

Take Geoff Shack's CP book.  Honestly, I had never been aware of Mackenzie's idea for an alternate route for holes #13 and #14, for 17 Mile Drive and so on.  Thus, whe I next visit Monterey I'd love to go take a look at where Mackenzie might have placed the 14th tee if he hadn't been overruled.

So, how do we welcome new folks?  Maybe occasionally pointing out what really works and what doesn't isn't such a bad thing.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bob Huntley,
I couldn't agree more. nandal, please bear no attention to my arrogant diatribe for it is exactly that, arrogant. But I like Tim, I feel that this whole thread poses a problem for all Golf Club Atlas. I mean, how many of us have been fortunate enough to visit fairways that many in here haven't, nor will ever have the opportunity to visit?

I just don't think that some of us should be pouring salt into
the wounds of those who wish a greater course resume. I do however think that if they want to see these courses they should in fact seek them out for their ARCHITECTURE, which means that you may not be playing, but actually SEEING and that is certainly a worthy opportunity at any juncture.

This is what seperates the guys who are in it for studying the architecture and those who like to play golf--the ability to let your ego take a back seat to your education of the art. Yes, it is great if you can pay the oucrse and see how it matches to your game, but think about just how much you missed because you weren't looking at every possible pin placement on the green just because you were concerned with sinking a three foot putt.

Indutry Hills is worthy of study of HOW not to build a golf course(s) on a land fill. Robinson Ranch is the study of how low an architect will go to not only build a golf course with his name on it, but to also subject the golfer to every ecological concern about the property, when the game should be avoiding it. (Simply by bringing all of the ecological features into play.)

(Point in example-Payne Stewart's one and only course design credit at Coyote Hills in Fullerton, California. Not only is the course recognized by the Audobon Society for meeting all of its criteria, it has become an ecological nightmare, masqurarding as a golf course. Yesterday while driving by it, I noticed the 200+/- acres across from it that used to be a tree nursery loaded with all kinds of natural creeks has been shaped into 350 housing lots located in area that is already overbuilt for its infrastructure. Such planning! Where was the Sierra Club on this one?)

So while I have completely gotten off the original point of the subject........

nandel, Do yourself a favor and go see Bethpage Black; save and spend $350.00 and go play Pebble Beach; Even better, take that money and frequent as many public Donald Ross or A.W. Tillinghasts courses you can, study why they are great and how they compare to anything Ted Robinson has ever tried to create in his entire life.

It is here that you will see that the truth lies in the study of the art, and not the list or resume.

All my best.

[Chris Kane]

What I've gained from GCA is not a list of good courses, but a better understanding of why they are good.  

We can post all day long with lists of courses, but that won't help anyone to appreciate them.  Educating people about what constitutes greatness is far more beneficial, and interesting.

Almost everyone here has a better course resume than myself, but that motivates me rather than leaving me disillusioned.  I know that when I visit these shrines of the game, I will appreciate them far more due to my time on GCA.

[Paul W]

Yes, well....in recovery from Rob Burns Nacht, but will mention my, yes, my top five:  

TOC
Royal Portrush
Royal County Down
Ballybunion Old
Perranporth      

Nigel, fetch the Talisker.........

[Stan Dodd]

As a newbie I am a bit reluctant to express an opinion with sooo many experts.  But I have been known to shoot off my mouth at times.  I think there are criteria beyond great golf holes, such as ambiance, scenic valus as well as shot values, and how one is made to feel when playing, does it stir your soul.  I played Machrihanish with my son, my father and a hopitable member in great Machrihanish weather and on that day it was the greatest golf course on earth.
How you are accepted and welcomed at the club also lends to the overall experience, perhaps some posters should take note.

[ChipOat]

Whitey

Well said - that's why "best" and "favorite" aren't always the same.

[John_McMillan]

It looks like the post has been edited from its original form (the top 5 list is gone), so I hope we haven't chased away a potential contributor.

There is a difficulty in interpreting these types of lists.  Mine would probably be -

Crystal Downs
Beechtree
University of Michigan
Pebble Beach
Pine Needles

Does that mean that I hold these courses in better opinion than some left off the list?  Or just that I haven't played some that might rank more highly?  Your interpretation comes out completely differently if I have played Cypress Point, but think that Beechtree is a better course, than if I hadn't the chance yet to get on Cypress.

What might give you more information from my list, though, would be an explanation of why I liked both Pebble Beach and Beechtree - why I thought the latter belonged on a list with the former.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Experience* should never be ever forgotten when playing this great game. some of my greatest unforgettable moments in life have been on some controversial golf course designs.

However, this is a golf architcture discussion group, and we should never forget such a subject that has been abused, neglected, misinterpreted, and even misguided for so long. I really do think that ultimately, influence in this discussion Group has everything to do with the future of the game. Maybe not all of it, maybe not even a bit of it, but hopefully it will inspire and direct the future.

I think the game is going to need all of the best wisdom and experience that all have to offer, even from those who WANT to learn. Especially when having to remove itself from so much of the commercialism that has blantantly taken over the game.

This does not mean that ALL commercialism is bad.

[ed_getka]

Tommy,
 How many people do you see at golf courses that you would truly consider golfers that think and care about golf like the people in this discussion group? I would say about 1 in 100 golfers I meet could even tell me who designed their local course, probably 1 in 500 play their ball down, 1 in 20 repair ball marks, repair divots or put sand in divots on tees, etc... I have felt over the last 25 years that I have been golfing,that people have become progressively less connected to the true spirit of the game we love.

[nandoal]

My  favorite courses I played are:

* Bel-Air Country Club, Los Angeles, Thomas

* Monterey Peninsula C.C., Pebble Beach, Raynor

* Forest Ridge Golf Club, Tulsa, Heckenkemper

* The Championship Course at the University of New Mexico,
    Albuquerque, Lawrence

* Point Judith Country Club, Narragansett, RI, Ross


Sorry If my favs don't include a Mckenzie gem or a Tillinghast course, but these are a couple of very exclusive and good courses I've had the privalege to play.  

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

The cool and exciting thing about top 5 courses is that they always change. Why do we all seek the next great course - so that we might run across a new course that might make are top 5.

[Mark_Fine]

Tommy,
Following up on your quote - "I do however think that if they want to see these courses they should in fact seek them out for their ARCHITECTURE, which means that you may not be playing, but actually SEEING and that is certainly a worthy opportunity at any juncture.  This is what seperates the guys who are in it for studying the architecture and those who like to play golf,...".

I'll let you in on a little secret I discovered many years ago, it IS possible to do both!  

Nandoal,
I won't list the five "best" courses I've played but I will mention some of my favorites if I could go tee it up and play right now.  I am a big fan of playing links golf.

Dornoch, Turnberry, Portrush, County Down and North Berwick.  

Mark

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Tommy and others, this may be the 4th or 5th time this post has appeared in the last year or so. It is a no harm no foul question and in many ways confirms opinion from alot of GCA types on which are the really special courses to us. 70% of us will give our answer from a list of 10 courses. If it gives someone a reason to start contributing, then alot of good can come from it. I can find no reason at all to be offended by this or any number of other posts which appear on here each week. Much like TV, if you are not into the post go on to another.

[Wayne Morrison]

My first response in your interesting discussions, I hesitate to tackle such a subject.  However, a list of my top five courses in the world influenced by both the objective and the subjective in no specific order:

Shinnecock Hills (the best and most complete test of a golfer's skills that I know)
Pine Valley (nothing else compares to the overall experience)
Royal Dornoch (great test of golf, fun to play, wonderful town)
The Old Course (goosebumps from 1st tee to 18th green)
Merion GC (#1,5,7,8,11,14,15,16,17,18 stand out from a great crowd)

Would've liked to include my home course, Rolling Green GC in Springfield, PA, it is very special; those of us in the Philly area regard it well.  I am playing Sand Hills the 2nd week in June and may have to revise the list afterwards.
Three courses in the top 5 have William S. Flynn involvement.  He is such a good an architect.  Allow me my bias, I am writing a book on his life and his courses.  Everyone assisting me has been so passionate and helpful.  It is a fun project.  I continue to enjoy the many insightful thoughts I have read here over the months.  This site has been great!  Keep up the good work!

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
If you'd like to visit Lehigh (I've sure you have done so already) please give me a call.  Ron Forse is a great resource for info on Flynn.  
Mark

[THuckaby2]

Tommy,
Following up on your quote - "I do however think that if they want to see these courses they should in fact seek them out for their ARCHITECTURE, which means that you may not be playing, but actually SEEING and that is certainly a worthy opportunity at any juncture.  This is what seperates the guys who are in it for studying the architecture and those who like to play golf,...".

I'll let you in on a little secret I discovered many years ago, it IS possible to do both!  

Mark

Mark:  WHEW!  Huge sigh of relief.  I've got to be the anti-Tommy in this respect and I've made no secret of that on this and other web sites... I could sooner walk a course and study it and NOT PLAY as I would root for the SF Giants (I'm a lifelong Dodger fan).  It's just not possible.

But what I have learned, particularly in recent years, as I have stopped to "study" more and more while I play, is that you can indeed do both, or at least I thought you could....

But perhaps not to Tommy's definition of "study" though.  But Tommy, have mercy on those of us who like to play the game.  Is there not a place for us on this site, and in the world of golf also?

TH

[Wayne Morrison]

Mark,
As a matter of fact I was at Lehigh on Saturday with Jim Nagle of Forse Design and spoke at length with John Chissard and Wayne Phillips.  Wonderful place, too much ice and snow to play...hope to do so for the first time later this year.  Ron Forse and Jim Nagle have been a big help and we're getting together shortly, they have a lot on Indian Creek.  Unfortunatelym, Lehigh doesn't have much Flynn materials, do you know of any (original drawings, documents, etc)?  Would love to get my hand on some for the book.  Any Flynn materials anyone might have associated with GCA, please let me know.  I, of course, will pay for copying and/or shipping.
Regards,
Wayne

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Huckaby:

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll take one more shot at this topic.

I'm one hundred percent with Tommy N on this basically because I don't see the point in a thread in which everyone lists the top five courses they have played.

I've played many of the top courses in the world, but what does that matter?  Do you care that Tim has played Pine Valley and Cypress Point and so on?

I can't see why you would.

I've expressed on several occasions that Tom Doak's Confidential Guide is kind of the forerunner to this site.  Notice that Tom didn't simply publish as list of courses he played.  Instead, he shared his thoughts on each course, his insight into what each course was all about.

What Tom did was both courageous and useful to the student of golf architecture.  Whether you agree with Tom's opinions on any given course doesn't matter.  The book succeeds because it helps you to think about golf architecture as an art form.

Personally, I'm not concerned whether one wants to play or just walk a golf course.  Everyone has their own method of "study".  But, I am interested in people's opinions about a course, their specific opinions about things I may have missed.

Does it matter to me that Tom Huckaby has played Pebble Beach?  No.  Am I interested in your thoughts about the course, especially about the parts I find less than inspiring?  Hell, yes!

I just think it would be far better to ask people to share their views on famous courses, especially things that aren't part of commonly held views.  Doesn't that make more sense?

Winged Foot, for instance, was never really one of my favorite venues.  I always found Quaker Ridge far more enjoyable.  But, I was never able to articulate my thoughts on the subject until I read The Confidental Guide wherein TD stepped up and pointed out what now seems obvious: Winged Foot's property is really nothing special.

That's the kind of discussion we should emphasize rather than everyone simply posting their top list.

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