Golf needs to learn from Skiing

[Jaeger Kovich]

The biggest difference between Golf and Skiing... There is NO score involved in skiing 99% of the time. Skiing is a sport, but its not game. If you make it down alive without taking a ride on the meat-wagon you win, then you jump back on the lift and do it again!

The "fun" element that draws individuals to skiing will always be a little different than golf because of the adventure and exploration factors. In golf where we keep score, those feelings will never be as pure because as we all no there is no such thing as a perfect round of golf... I can have a weeks worth of perfect runs when I'm skiing Beaver Creek.  

I am a single digit golfer, but a scratch skier! Unfortunately I got in a fight with a tree and haven't been able to play golf in months If my gca/shaping career never pans out, Plan B is to operate a snow cat its the same thing as a dozer right?!

[Tim Martin]

I wish bad golfers would get hurt or die like bad skiers who try to play above their pay grade.

John-That certainly is a nice sentiment and thank you very much for sharing your feelings on the matter. We know how bad skiers can get hurt or die but what about golfers? Carts nosediving over ravines or into the ocean or maybe just taking a smother hooked drive to the temple are certainly options.Can you can expound on this? Thanks.

Expounding:  People generally ski the proper "tees" for fear of injury.  They take lessons for the same reason. Golf could use a little fear to motivate those who placate the game at others expense.

I agree that fear could benefit the great game of golf. I suggest the following:The starter or for those that prefer the term "Golf Concierge" ask each player in the group to produce a handicap card or if unavailable give a notarized statement(notary would be on the property and no more than a lob wedge from the first tee) as to what his current handicap is as of the latest revision. The starter/concierge will then assign a set of tees commensurate with the player`s ability. Upon completion of the round a scorecard must be produced and attested by all players in the group. If the player shoots within 10 shots of his handicap he would be allowed to proceed to the grill room, square his bets and drink beer as usual. If he shoots anything higher the punishment would be meted out by a golf tribunal of sorts(pro,cart girl,restaurant hostess and locker room attendant) who could also take into consideration things like your outfit, whether or not you are playing an offset driver and if your bag has your name on it. The tribunal would not be limited as to the outcome and no legal representation would be permitted. I think it`s a start.

[John Kavanaugh]

The demographic of skier in my world is wealthier and better educated than the golfers. That doesn't hurt profits or cultural engineering.

Tim,

I don't qualify for nothing no more. Golf is douchie enough without having to pass a test to play.  That works for children at best.

[Bill Brightly]

I think a critical point is that skiing/snowbaording is a great FAMILY activity, while in many cases, golf is not perceived that way. The soccer moms/dads raising kids now want to do things as a family, so they may plop down $5,000 to $10,000 (or more) per season for a FAMILY activity, but not golf. I think the young father today has a real tough sell when he brings up the topic of joining a club, Mrs. Soccer Mom is not going to be too thrilled with that idea, especially if Dad thinks he is gonna sneak out for 4 hours or so every weekend.

That is why I think golf clubs have got to get young kids on the course. It can be done, but it requires a LOT of change in how kids are perceived at most clubs. I crashed and burned at my club trying to set up a summer camp for kids, but I really believe that is the long term solution to membership at many clubs. Get a few of kids of the soccer mom/dad playing golf 3 or 4 times a week, coupled with pool and tennis, and I think the word will spread, and the golf club will be in vogue with young couples.

[Joel Zuckerman]

Does the skiing equivalent of a private golf club even exist?  I have to believe it does, but I can't believe it exists in anywhere near the same percentage.

http://www.yellowstoneclub.com/

[Jaeger Kovich]

Does the skiing equivalent of a private golf club even exist?  I have to believe it does, but I can't believe it exists in anywhere near the same percentage.

Absolutely... There is know there is a "Beaver Creek Club" and a Vail Ski Club as well. They come with guest passes, discounted lessons, gear at certain resort stores, private lodge at base... etc

[Tim Martin]

The demographic of skier in my world is wealthier and better educated than the golfers. That doesn't hurt profits or cultural engineering.

Tim,

I don't qualify for nothing no more. Golf is douchie enough without having to pass a test to play.  That works for children at best.

John-I modified my post to include a wink at the end. If you didn`t know I was kidding I got some sweet offset drivers I want to sell you with free shipping of course. Come on - lighten up man.

[David Harshbarger]

1. official far-forward tees for kids and adult beginners, with official scorecards.  They don't even half to be tee boxes, just markers.  Voila, instant short course.
2. Pros on the course with the beginners.
3. Free for beginners, as Garland said.
4. Events where beginners are made welcome on the course: scrambles are good for that, and are very social.
5. Family golf.  My wife supported joining a club for the first time ever because I'm investing time in my kids through it.

On a different tack: My house is on 28 humpy bumpy acres. Is there a business model out there that would make a short course work?  10,000 rounds at $10 is $100,000.  Would a small course really get much more on either the green fees or rounds? 

Dave

[Tim Martin]

1. official far-forward tees for kids and adult beginners, with official scorecards.  They don't even half to be tee boxes, just markers.  Voila, instant short course.
2. Pros on the course with the beginners.
3. Free for beginners, as Garland said.
4. Events where beginners are made welcome on the course: scrambles are good for that, and are very social.
5. Family golf.  My wife supported joining a club for the first time ever because I'm investing time in my kids through it.

On a different tack: My house is on 28 humpy bumpy acres. Is there a business model out there that would make a short course work?  10,000 rounds at $10 is $100,000.  Would a small course really get much more on either the green fees or rounds? 

Dave

Dave-I like your ideas but I question how realistic it is to give beginners a freebie from the owner/operator standpoint. At the end of the day it`s still a business.

[David Harshbarger]

1. official far-forward tees for kids and adult beginners, with official scorecards.  They don't even half to be tee boxes, just markers.  Voila, instant short course.
2. Pros on the course with the beginners.
3. Free for beginners, as Garland said.
4. Events where beginners are made welcome on the course: scrambles are good for that, and are very social.
5. Family golf.  My wife supported joining a club for the first time ever because I'm investing time in my kids through it.

On a different tack: My house is on 28 humpy bumpy acres. Is there a business model out there that would make a short course work?  10,000 rounds at $10 is $100,000.  Would a small course really get much more on either the green fees or rounds? 

Dave

Dave-I like your ideas but I question how realistic it is to give beginners a freebie from the owner/operator standpoint. At the end of the day it`s still a business.

Tim,

You don't have to be a crack dealer to know that if you want addicts, you have to start with that first taste.

Besides, the marginal cost of a round is pretty close to nil, isn't it?

Thanks for the props.

Dave

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Interesting article by Lorne Rubenstein>

http://www.golfcanada.ca/professional-tours/golf-news/?articleId=2025524&sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4dd30b4d3e7f98cb%2C0

[Mike Sweeney]

In golf, I have no choice but to open with this shot which I love but is tough for the average golfer. My wife has no interest:



In skiing, this is maybe my 4th hole of the day and these days maybe not at all (which skiing allows your to chose):

[Troy Alderson]

Ski resorts made skiing easier and more fun.  Golf adds length, water hazard with no recovery shot, and vertical hazards as trees where trees do not grow naturally.

Golf must become easier to play and more fun to attract more golfers.  Here are my ideas.

No water hazards, irrigation ponds out of play, no where near the holes.

Trees out of play, i.e. 50-60 yard wide holes (fairways and primary rough) with trees outside of that width.

Golf balls that fly straight or with only a little draw/fade, i.e. from one side of the fairway to the other side.

Promote match play instead of stroke play and/or promote four ball play, it's quicker.

Keep bunkers to about 20 per 18 holes.

Quit calling the red tees the ladies tees and so forth.  I challenge everyone to play the forward tees occasionally, it's fun.

Most golf courses are not going to host a PGA event.  The industry and individual courses need to realize their place.  Most courses need to be the fun courses and few should be tour/challenging courses.

[Richard Choi]

Don't forget that skiing has welcomed technology changes that made the sport more accessible/cool.

Shaped skis are much more user friendly than 200cm thin skis that I used to use in high school. People don't bitch about how it is runing the sport by making it so easy.

Snowboards made spending the day on the slopes more cool and the sport embraced the counter-culture elements who were attracted to it. Ski outfits tracked the latest fashion closely and made it cool to wear them. Golf course dress codes have gotten even more strict these days and baggy shorts are looked down upon.

In short, skiing welcoms the generational changes, golf always resists it.

[Ronald Montesano]

Ski pros accompany the students as they advance from beginner to intermediate to advanced.

Carl, I equate the tow rope and the bunny hill with the practice range. If a skier were condemned to those areas, she/he would give up the sport...same with borders and other sliders.

Truth is, sliding downhill at up-to-breakneck pace is physically exhilarating; what is physically exhilarating about golf?

[Pat Burke]

In my somewhat limited opinion.  I love to ski, and was skiing when skiers were absolutley bitching acout the
damn crazy kids on their snowboards.  Many areas resisted the snowboards, until the areas that built half-pipes, and "trick" areas started to flourish.  Snowboards are kid "cool" and for adults, you can carve beautiful, arching turns.  The side cut skis made me a much better intermediate skier.  As a skier, that needed to not destroy myself, I picked fairly easy runs when I was playing competitively.  It was fun to really try to learn how to turn correctly.
As far as professionals on the slopes with kids, I kind of agree.  It seemed that all the kids programs had a cost associated with it, but also had a kid specific area for newbies. 
We have a "mentor" program, with up to 20 volunteers that take kids on the course 3 days per week.  It costs $5, but costs our volunteer nothing.  The volunteers range from good players to high handicappers, but are their for ettiquete, rules and safety.  Most are retired, and using their time and lif experiences, and sharing them with our kids.
It is a great program, but how many courses have an ownership/desire to put it together?

[David Harshbarger]

On the Schmidt-Curley site there was an article (that my Flash-neutered iPad can't reach) where I believe Brian talked about providing courses for all levels by building courses for all levels at some of their customers.  The thinking is, whole group goes to resort or joins club, there are options for everyone, everyone's needs are met.

Could we adopt that model in the US?  Where the market is mature, could clubs make arrangements with other facilities to provide access to "beginner friendly" courses as part of the package?  What if 5 or so private clubs bought a local Par 3, took it Private, brought it up to Private standards, and made it available to members of the participating clubs? 

Are there approaches that would break down parochial barriers and put the assests that exist in play to grow the game, by using them differently?

Dave

[Mike Nuzzo]

Iam
I'm with you.
It is the individual course/club that doesn't want this crew playing.

[Sean_A]

Maybe we have to face up to the possibility that golf isn't that appealing for a huge segment of the population and get on with making do with the huge numbers of people who do play golf.  Why is there a persistent murmur that golf needs to grow?  I understand that folks dependant upon golf for a living want to feed their families, but that doesn't necessarily mean that growing the game is desirable.   This doesn't mean golf can't learn from whoever (whatever), but from my perspective (and I suggest a who significant percentage of golfers) everything is fine.  Golf has an incredible ddiversity of players, courses and in an incrediblle diversity of countries and climates.  If a guy like Fowler was shown the history of golf development over the past 100 years he would be astonished.  Instead there is the everlasting desire for more, more, more, now, now, now.  What in the devil is wrong with the world when folks think of golf this way?

Ciao     

[Melvyn Morrow]

There Is no magic bullet that will resolve the numbers issues, however, by explaining both the game and the impact of GCA we might generate real interest.  Not to harp over my past points, but, every time we make the game easier we take form the potential play a serious point of interest. This is much applicable with using carts, distance aids, super modern high tech equipment – by riding we have duplicated the drive to and from the club, which is in real terms means minds in standby mode and not LOOKING at the course;  by letting them use aids, we cut the learning curve still further making them totally relent on the numbers for club selection; as for long drives we encourage them to play the aerial games with very little thought for the ground game much used in GB, in other words their golf education is rather poor verging on the dull. How have we encouraged them to play golf at home or world wide – if the course in Walking only will they be fit enough to walk, will blind holes kill their game as unable to use distance aids, then what about links courses or very windy gusty days, how will they fair with their knowledge only of the aerial game.  We made it easy, so where is the challenge when things turn out not to be so good , be it the weather of commanding course they have the opportunity to play for the first time. No, history tell us over and over again that to keep people interested we must give them challenges , test and alternatives options to banging ones head against a brick way.

It’s not easy courses, it never has been, its challenging courses for the duffers with options i.e. be safe or test you skills at whatever level they may be,  However, what is required is a proper lesson on golf, by that \I mean explaining how to understand and navigate a course, how and why or when to push your luck otherwise it is just a game of put your ball in the 9 or 18 holes for the lease amount of strokes – sound really exciting, but when you take in the hazards, the options and looking to navigate the course you throw in INTEREST  - you grab their attention.

Easy is not the answer, it stagnates the game, it reduces commitment and turns a great game into a boring ride/walk. The answer is not to change the game but to explain the merits of both game and course.

Melvyn 

[Chris DeNigris]

Of course at Melvyn's ski area there would be no chair lifts 

While there are indeed a lot of parallels (pun intended) between the two sports where lessons could be learned...as pointed out already there are a ton of significant distinctions.

We all have to play the same golf course but I can often find my own part of the mountain to ski on...

Skiing is exponentially easier to learn and achieve a reasonable degree of proficiency in a short time...

You can ski for an hour and rest/eat/drink for an hour....rinse and repeat...

Shivas- There definitely are pace of play issues...they're called lift lines.


Lastly- someone funnier than I should do a Carlin Baseball vs Football thing with Golf and Skiing

[Bruce Wellmon]

Links golf vs forced carry golf.
Can juniors starting out, or junior girls, or even some women golfers, carry the ball the distances some US courses require over ponds or lakes or marshes or ravines?
For my daughter, the answer is no.
One course we play has a specific set of junior (orange) tees foward of the red tees.
That course has tried to encourage shorter "rounds" as it has 6 hole loops. Unfortunately, the epicenter of the (3) six hole loops is at the "halfway house" and not the clubhouse, which somewhat defeats the purpose. Nice idea, poor execution.
My simple point is if you are losing balls every forced carry you come to, it's no fun. For the dad's wallet even.
Links golf and the ground game allows perhaps more lattitude for errors and more fun/less penal.

[Kalen Braley]

Of course at Melvyn's ski area there would be no chair lifts 

While there are indeed a lot of parallels (pun intended) between the two sports where lessons could be learned...as pointed out already there are a ton of significant distinctions.

We all have to play the same golf course but I can often find my own part of the mountain to ski on...

Skiing is exponentially easier to learn and achieve a reasonable degree of proficiency in a short time...

You can ski for an hour and rest/eat/drink for an hour....rinse and repeat...

Shivas- There definitely are pace of play issues...they're called lift lines.


Lastly- someone funnier than I should do a Carlin Baseball vs Football thing with Golf and Skiing

Chris is on the right track here:

The differences seem to far outweigh the similarities.  I've taken the liberty to elaborate a bit further:

1)  You have several slopes and several lifts at a ski resort that are separate from the bunny hill where the beginners learn on.  I don't know of an equivialent to this in golf.
2)  All it takes is one foursome of beginners to completely trash a starters sheet and bog down the entire day.  In skiing, there is no concept of this.  Why would any course operator not want the money of experienced players vs beginners.
3)  In golf you are committed to at least the 9 holes, if not 18 once started.  In skiiing, you can bail out whenever you want and everyone else remains unaffected.
4)  In golf you have to practice for at least a few months before you have any business being on the course.  In skiing, with only an hr or two of training, you can then do the easy and medium difficulty runs.
5)  In golf everyone must play the same holes, whether they are expert or beginner.  In skiing you can chop them up so only the advanced do black diamond, or the terrain park, etc.
6)  In golf you have a long list of rules, ettiquitte, etc, you need to know before teeing off.  In skiing, all you have to know is where the park boundaries are and try not to run over other people.
7)  In golf, there is always an expectation or at least a hope to "Score well".  In skiing this doesn't exist, people just go out and have fun without having to worry about "scoring" being something that could negatively impact ones attitude.
  In skiing, stopping for 30 minutes to take a lunch break and have a beer is not frowned upon.
9)  Skiing embraces technology for its weekend warriors, whereas golfers are still subject to the same rules/limits that the pros are.
10) Skiing embraces its youth and even gives them a place to play, aka terrain park.  Many golf courses, while not running them off explicitly, make it tough for them and feel unwelcomed.

[Garland Bayley]

...
1)  You have several slopes and several lifts at a ski resort that are separate from the bunny hill where the beginners learn on.  I don't know of an equivialent to this in golf.
Championship courses and par 3 courses
2)  All it takes is one foursome of beginners to completely trash a starters sheet and bog down the entire day.  In skiing, there is no concept of this.  Why would any course operator not want the money of experienced players vs beginners.
Slow players (especially beginners)are expected to let faster players through, Fast skiers are expected to ski through (with caution) slow skiers
3)  In golf you are committed to at least the 9 holes, if not 18 once started.  In skiiing, you can bail out whenever you want and everyone else remains unaffected.
No one is stopping you from bailing out in golf, just the pricing, which is analogous to resorts that sell fixed number of rides lift tickets. Some courses have an all day fee just like skiing, and you can bail when you are tired.
4)  In golf you have to practice for at least a few months before you have any business being on the course.  In skiing, with only an hr or two of training, you can then do the easy and medium difficulty runs.
You must be a slow learner, after an hour or two of training or nine holes many have all the business in the world being on course.
5)  In golf everyone must play the same holes, whether they are expert or beginner.  In skiing you can chop them up so only the advanced do black diamond, or the terrain park, etc.
6)  In golf you have a long list of rules, ettiquitte, etc, you need to know before teeing off.  In skiing, all you have to know is where the park boundaries are and try not to run over other people.
7)  In golf, there is always an expectation or at least a hope to "Score well".  In skiing this doesn't exist, people just go out and have fun without having to worry about "scoring" being something that could negatively impact ones attitude.
  In skiing, stopping for 30 minutes to take a lunch break and have a beer is not frowned upon.
Spread out your picnic with beer cooler in the middle of a run and you might get a few frowns. Do it at a tee inviting players to play through and everyone will be pleased with you. I frown on players that grab the drink cart in the middle of a hole and hold everone up while they kibitz with the proprieter.
9)  Skiing embraces technology for its weekend warriors, whereas golfers are still subject to the same rules/limits that the pros are.
10) Skiing embraces its youth and even gives them a place to play, aka terrain park.  Many golf courses, while not running them off explicitly, make it tough for them and feel unwelcomed.

[Ronald Montesano]

1. Gravity helps skiiers, not golfers.

2. You can pick and choose slopes and trails and the order in which you conquer them; not so with golf holes.

3. No chair lifts on Melvyn's slopes...so damned funny I can't stop smiling!!!