Old Mac Wind: Which is better?

[Trevor]

Just got back from Bandon, was lucky enough to play Old Mac in both summer and winter prevailing winds over 4 days.  Quite amazing how well it plays in both, but which do you prefer?  I preferred it with the wind coming out of the south although the Road hole was almost impossible to hold coming downwind!  The Biarritz seems to fit a crosswind coming out of the north, basically every hole was different in a fun and unique way...what a delight.

[Alex Miller]

I only played it in the South wind while I was there, but even during the round I was imagining it in the North wind. I didn't think the approaches really fit in the South wind, not as well as I imagined with the opposite wind anyways. 1&2 were fun, but 3,4,6,9,10,11,12,17,18 all felt like they fit a north wind much better. I'd love the opportunity to get back and see if I'm right.

[Trevor]

I will say 4 was LONG into a south wind, but 3 was very cool and different hole with the oppty to run it in there.  The key is the staff setting it up correctly w/ tees flipped accordingly.  The redan into a northern wind was very fun with the left front bunker ready to swallow balls hooked juuust too much

[Alex Miller]

I hope I didn't sound like I was saying those holes didn't work in a south wind because they do. BUT, I think they work better in a north wind. For the most part the course was set up for the south wind, with the exception of 4 which was as close to unreachable as it comes. The road hole had the pin below the false front (if that makes sense) and the strategy was completely ruined for the KP crew IMO.

[Mike Benham]

The road hole had the pin below the false front (if that makes sense) and the strategy was completely ruined for the KP crew IMO.

Strategy is only for post-round stroking if you don't execute ...




(waiting for Alex to stop laughing)


A three is a three on the road hole, regardless if the strategery was ruined or not.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

I hope I didn't sound like I was saying those holes didn't work in a south wind because they do. BUT, I think they work better in a north wind. For the most part the course was set up for the south wind, with the exception of 4 which was as close to unreachable as it comes. The road hole had the pin below the false front (if that makes sense) and the strategy was completely ruined for the KP crew IMO.

Well, obviously I didn't play in this round with you, or the KP you speak of, but when I played the pin was also in front. With the pin cut there, the bunker and the run-off long are not even in play, especially given the wind (when I played it was into a north breeze). I just hit a driver and a low running 5 iron to the green, no big deal. Put that pin back and it becomes a much different hole.

As far as holes fitting a north wind better, I suspect you are correct. Given that probably 75-80 percent of the rounds played at Bandon are played with a north breeze, the course has to be designed as such.

[Trevor]

Another hole that was an interesting switch was 7 (Ocean?) into the northern wind with the shot shape favoring a cut into any pin deep in the green, if you don't judge it long enough the ball can roll back 50 yards...kind of like Shinny #10 but with a front left to back right shaping green.  The only thing worse is the southern downwind which can push you into the collection area over and having to putt (or chip...pssh) with the risk of going back down the slope.

[Jim Franklin]

I only played in the summer wind and loved it. My friends that played in a winter wind thought it was the fourth best course there so I would say the summer wind wins hands down.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is there an inbalance/distortion, in terms of the overall challenge, that's the result of wind coming from a particular direction ?

[Jim Franklin]

Is there an inbalance/distortion, in terms of the overall challenge, that's the result of wind coming from a particular direction ?

I did not think so in the summer wind, but from the sounds of it, yes in a winter wind.

[Tom_Doak]

When we were building Pacific Dunes, I asked Mr. Keiser if we should consider one of the prevailing winds more than the other, and he said that the north wind blows all the time in the summer, when people are paying a premium to be there, so we should think about that more.  And so we have.  We understand that it blows the other way often in winter, and we try to keep it playable under those circumstances, but that's not the primary way we are thinking about the holes.

I think the only real difference is that there are not enough tees on some of the holes playing south, to push people forward when that wind is blowing.  We were just more careful to provide those tees on the holes which play north -- #11 being a prime example.  Whereas #10 does not have a tee for the same thing.

However, I think there are several holes which are more fun in the winter wind -- #6 and #11 and #14 because they're more reachable, and #3 because it's more challenging.

[JLahrman]

I only played in the summer wind and loved it. My friends that played in a winter wind thought it was the fourth best course there so I would say the summer wind wins hands down.

I played in the winter wind with Alex.  Have not played in the summer wind.  Some wind thoughts:

#4 is essentially a three-shot hole in the winter wind...which might actually be better.  It was a tricky green, laying up might be the better play.

I was hole-high in two on the Sahara hole (#6), although they were probably my two best swings of the day.  It was fun to have the hole reachable, although the big Sahara bunker was not in play at all except to obscure my view of the green on the approach.  However, that drive I hit was probably my best of the week.  The bunker definitely could have come into play had I hit a lesser drive.

I would expect the summer wind to make #7 more playable, as the wind will help hold the green.  It is very tough to do with the winter wind (although I did thin my approach up the hill).

I would think that the Road hole (#11) would be close to a three-shot hole into the summer wind, at least from the tees we played.

The Redan (#12) was pretty much driver/3-wood, playing dead into the winter wind.  I don't mind hitting a driver or 3-wood on a par-3, but it's hard to feel like you're really going to pull off the shot that a Redan hole traditionally calls for when you're holding one of those clubs.  I was just hoping to get it somewhere near the green - and I did get it onto the front right of the green, leaving probably a 150-foot putt to the back left hole location.  Didn't really feel like a Redan into the wind.

#18 is a real brute into the winter wind too.

It's a windy course, and the direction all but flips in winter vs. summer.  So some imbalance is certainly to be expected.  I loved Old Mac, it was probably my favorite of the four.  But I would love to try all the courses again in the summer wind and see how differently they play.

[Jim Franklin]

I only played in the summer wind and loved it. My friends that played in a winter wind thought it was the fourth best course there so I would say the summer wind wins hands down.

I played in the winter wind with Alex.  Have not played in the summer wind.  Some wind thoughts:

#4 is essentially a three-shot hole in the winter wind...which might actually be better.  It was a tricky green, laying up might be the better play.

I was hole-high in two on the Sahara hole (#6), although they were probably my two best swings of the day.  It was fun to have the hole reachable, although the big Sahara bunker was not in play at all except to obscure my view of the green on the approach.  However, that drive I hit was probably my best of the week.  The bunker definitely could have come into play had I hit a lesser drive.

I would expect the summer wind to make #7 more playable, as the wind will help hold the green.  It is very tough to do with the winter wind (although I did thin my approach up the hill).

I would think that the Road hole (#11) would be close to a three-shot hole into the summer wind, at least from the tees we played.

The Redan (#12) was pretty much driver/3-wood, playing dead into the winter wind.  I don't mind hitting a driver or 3-wood on a par-3, but it's hard to feel like you're really going to pull off the shot that a Redan hole traditionally calls for when you're holding one of those clubs.  I was just hoping to get it somewhere near the green - and I did get it onto the front right of the green, leaving probably a 150-foot putt to the back left hole location.  Didn't really feel like a Redan into the wind.

#18 is a real brute into the winter wind too.

It's a windy course, and the direction all but flips in winter vs. summer.  So some imbalance is certainly to be expected.  I loved Old Mac, it was probably my favorite of the four.  But I would love to try all the courses again in the summer wind and see how differently they play.

Like I have said, I loved Old Mac and want to try it in the winter as well. I thought #7 was awesome into the wind, but would certainly enjoy hitting #6 in two in the winter. Fun, fun course.

[Bill Ward]

I've only played it in a winter wind as well.  You basically had to concede 4,10, and 18 as par 5's.  On 17 I think I got it close to the green hitting driver, 3 wood, 3 wood.  It seemed to balance out because downwind holes played so short.  The only thing I think that they could maybe do as far as setup is to move the tees up on the redan to about 170 or so.  The best I saw anyone do on that hole was to hit a driver or 3 wood to the front edge.  Green was pretty much out of reach.  We had a pin down in front of the 11th green in one round too.   Seemed a bit odd.  Should have made it a lot easier but I managed to run a shot right past it and then up and over the green.  Not such an easy up and down from back there.   

[JLahrman]

I've only played it in a winter wind as well.  You basically had to concede 4,10, and 18 as par 5's...We had a pin down in front of the 11th green in one round too.   Seemed a bit odd.  Should have made it a lot easier but I managed to run a shot right past it and then up and over the green.  Not such an easy up and down from back there.  

18 is close to three shots, I agree.  I hit a great drive, still had 3-iron in and it wasn't enough.  #10 I duckhooked one so badly it would have been three shots no matter what.

I played 11 with the front pin...hit what I thought was a good shot but it kept rolling and rolling.  Right over the green.  When the ball was in the air I immediately told myself I had taken one club too many.  Turns out I took two.  I did get to see Lou Duran make a nice birdie on the hole though, playing it the correct way.

[Andy Troeger]

I do think a summer wind would play a little more as designed, which has been confirmed. It was still fun and playable in the winter wind though.

A few examples:

#4 was totally unreachable into a strong wind. I hit two very low shots and had 100 yards left--two perfect shots might have gotten to within 60 yards. And I'm fairly long.

#6 the wind totally took the hell bunker out of play for me unless I'd have topped my second shot. It was cool to be green-high in two though. Just kind of took the most exciting part of the hole away though. Two other shorter hitters in the group ended up in it though, so it depends on the player.

#10 played really long and #11 really short. I hit it to 100 yards on #11, but really had no play at the flag because I couldn't hold anything to the left side of the green. Not necessarily a bad thing, but would be more fun with the other wind even with a longer shot.

I wonder from what I've heard if #12 plays better with this wind though, because its hard to hold otherwise. We had two balls within 20 feet, although they were excellent shots with a hybrid and driver, respectively, from just over 200 yards.


Otherwise I think it played very well in the winter wind--I'd like to try it again with the wind going the other way. Didn't notice this so much at Pac Dunes or really any of the other three courses.

[David_Elvins]

I don't think there are too many holes that suffer too much from palying into the wind in winter, but I do think the balance of the course may suffer. 

I liked playing 4 as a par 5 into the wind, but I am not sure that it is balanced out the other way. 

Playing a hole like 1 donwwind doesn't make it too much easier unless you are a real bomber (who doesn't 4 putt).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak Quote:

I think the only real difference is that there are not enough tees on some of the holes playing south, to push people forward when that wind is blowing.  We were just more careful to provide those tees on the holes which play north -- #11 being a prime example.  Whereas #10 does not have a tee for the same thing.

Tom is there any thought being given to adding those tees at some point ?

[Andy Troeger]

I don't think there are too many holes that suffer too much from palying into the wind in winter, but I do think the balance of the course may suffer. 

I liked playing 4 as a par 5 into the wind, but I am not sure that it is balanced out the other way. 

Playing a hole like 1 donwwind doesn't make it too much easier unless you are a real bomber (who doesn't 4 putt).

David,
Unless you can drive the green I don't think #1 being downwind helps at all. It certainly doesn't help on #2, just makes it really hard to hold the green given the dramatic upslope in front.