[Patrick_Mucci]

The courses have gotten easier AND the equipment has gotten better.

Many great old courses, designed by the ODG's have been dumbed down for a variety of reasons.

Hollywood has to be one of the prime examples.
Designed as a championship course with over 200 bunkers, many of those bunkers have been removed or allowed to whither and shrink.

NGLA, my favorite course in golf has suffered the same fate.

Two aerials will be posted.

A current one, probably from Google Earth, and one from 70+ years ago.

Examine the 70+ year old aerial.
Tell me if the course wasn't exponentially more difficult then, especially with equipment circa 1930's.

Tell me which one you'd prefer to play.

Why have courses been allowed to lose some of their challenge, vis a vis, reduction or eliimination of the bunkers.

Please do NOT post/reply until the aeiral/s have been posted.

Thanks

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick, I'm not going to respond to any specific courses but just ask one question:

If the courses are easier, and the equipment is better, why aren't the scores better?

Handicaps are the same by average as years ago.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Perhaps they're "easier" for single digit handicappers.

[Garland Bayley]

What a bunch of nonsense. Patrick, how could you be so gullible? The equipment manufacturers tell you the equipment is better, so you believe them? That's incredulous! The best golfers in the world have benefited by an explosion of knowledge about teaching and play, but the rest of struggle no matter what the equipment. Just give me a decent course to play on, and quite bitching about something that affects a tiny percentage of the golfing population.

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick, I'm not going to respond to any specific courses but just ask one question:

If the courses are easier, and the equipment is better, why aren't the scores better?

Handicaps are the same by average as years ago.

Scores in tournaments are better, I think.  As for handicaps, a couple quick thoughts:  1) Do they calculate them the same way as 70 years ago, and 2) How does the fact that far more people play golf now impact that?  

Actually, I would have thought courses are harder now, compared to in the 1940s.  They are longer, and probably tighter.  More trees have grown up since then.  

Also, Patrick's aerials are apparently a sample of....two.  Aerials of ANGC,.e.g., would indicate the opposite.  

[Steve Lang]

NGLA 1938 (posted for Pat)


area view 1938


area view today

[Tim Martin]

What a bunch of nonsense. Patrick, how could you be so gullible? The equipment manufacturers tell you the equipment is better, so you believe them? That's incredulous! The best golfers in the world have benefited by an explosion of knowledge about teaching and play, but the rest of struggle no matter what the equipment. Just give me a decent course to play on, and quite bitching about something that affects a tiny percentage of the golfing population.

Garland-You don`t think that it has benefited you to play a driver with a head bigger than a coal shovel as compared to persimmon? The modern ball has not benefited you either? On the contrary I would find your post to be nonsensical. If you say that you have not taken advantage of modern technology as a defense for your argument then that`s on you.

[Mike Cirba]

For some crazy reason I still play Taylor Made blades from 1988.   I'm 52 years old and have begun losing a bit of distance in recent years.

Last summer I rented some clubs while at a conference and on the third hole hit a 6-iron 204 yards on the fly, on flat terrain with little wind.    With my clubs I've been hitting the 6-iron 170 max.

I felt like I was cheating.

And yes, I did score better.

[Dan Boerger]

Interesting topic. I suspect there's a story (trend at least) underneath the statistics. I've not seen any data that shows the scores for "most" golfers has gone down but if handicaps are the same by average, as Bill points out, well there you go. My observations: (1) Scoring is still a 50 yard and in activity, and touch, feel and course management factor into that equation far more than any advances in equipment (2) Hitting the ball longer (which seems to be the fuel for ball and club manufacturing) only means that many golfers can now hit it 20 yards deeper into the hay.

[Tim Martin]

Interesting topic. I suspect there's a story (trend at least) underneath the statistics. I've not seen any data that shows the scores for "most" golfers has gone down but if handicaps are the same by average, as Bill points out, well there you go. My observations: (1) Scoring is still a 50 yard and in activity, and touch, feel and course management factor into that equation far more than any advances in equipment (2) Hitting the ball longer (which seems to be the fuel for ball and club manufacturing) only means that many golfers can now hit it 20 yards deeper into the hay.

Dan-Wouldn`t you say that you have a much better chance of hitting it straight or straighter with today`s balls than anything of the wound variety?

[Dan Boerger]

Tim - That's a good question. I'm not sure the benefits of a somewhat straighter ball would outweigh the now longer mishits. I belong to a club that's been around a while and is/was always pretty long. This is anecdotal, I know, but virtually every older member I've played with talks about how he hits the ball nearly as long as he did in the 70's and 80's. Still, if the scores haven't come down, are we finding new ways to make a bogey or a double closer to the green?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I know it may be too much to ask, but, please take a careful look at the bunkering at NGLA 70+ years ago.

The bunkering is far, far more extensive, more expansive, than it is today.

That translates into difficulty or the diminishment of difficulty.

Anyone posturing that modern equipment hasn't made the game easier needs to be admitted, voluntarily or under duress to Happydale Farms.  I understand that the rooms immediatley adjacent to TEPaul's room are available since the last seven patients developed an incurrable psychological disorder, "Merionette Syndrome"

When examing the photo from 70+ years ago, think how difficult navigating oneself around that course was with equipment circa 1938.

Think of the difficulty in getting carry distance, approach loft, etc., etc..

Is there any doubt that NGLA, circa 1938, was a far more difficult course, especially with equipment from 1938 and earlier.

[Dan Boerger]

Pat - Perhaps an easier game and same average score are not mutually exclusive.

[Michael Moore]

Pat -

I took a careful look at both aerials of the National Golf Links of America.

They look pretty much the same.

The only major difference I can see is that bunker on the left side of the seventeenth fairway has been turned into two bunkers and a waste area.

Can you point the specific differences that add up to "far, far more extensive" bunkering and an "exponential" increase in difficulty?

[Steve Kline]

Could it be that for the average golfer or the non-professional golfer that the long game has gotten easier due to technological advances but the short game, especially putting has gotten hard because greens speeds have gone up significantly? That could lead to average scores and handicaps being the same.

[Brent Hutto]

My theory? Scoring depends on a great many things. Most importantly it depends on who the player is.

Golf could be made a fair bit harder than the current game and people would still play golf.

Golf could be made a fair bit easier than the current game and people would still play golf.

Over a broad range of difficulty, the game will still be golf even if easier or harder than it is at present. It may attract a few additional golfers or a few less golfers but people play because they want the golf experience. Not because scoring is at such-and-such level or because the game is the same difficulty as 100 years ago. So even if we stipulate that playing the old NGLA with old implements and balls makes it harder to shoot a score than playing today's NGLA with today's equipment, it doesn't matter much.

[Brad Wilbur]

Would the increase in the speed of greens have helped to compensate for the advancement in technology?  Being above the cup when green speeds are at 5 is a lot different from when they are ramped up to 12.

[Brent Hutto]

Here it is in grayscale if it helps...

[Garland Bayley]

What a bunch of nonsense. Patrick, how could you be so gullible? The equipment manufacturers tell you the equipment is better, so you believe them? That's incredulous! The best golfers in the world have benefited by an explosion of knowledge about teaching and play, but the rest of struggle no matter what the equipment. Just give me a decent course to play on, and quite bitching about something that affects a tiny percentage of the golfing population.

Garland-You don`t think that it has benefited you to play a driver with a head bigger than a coal shovel as compared to persimmon? The modern ball has not benefited you either? On the contrary I would find your post to be nonsensical. If you say that you have not taken advantage of modern technology as a defense for your argument then that`s on you.

I'm saying that the changes you mention have had no measurable effect on me or the average golfer. A big headed driver does not cure my slice, it only gives me false confidence, allows me to swing harder, and slice two fairways over instead of one. When your slice is as big as mine, it really doesn't matter what ball you use. It is the top players that were able to get away from the balata ball that benefited from the new ball. The average guy couldn't afford to keep putting huge cuts into the expensive balls.

Now if they could invent a club that self corrected its angle of attack and height of attack, we average guys could benefit. If they would make that self correcting ball legal, we average guys could benefit. Other than that, the stuff the golf equipment companies are pushing on players is a bunch of bull. As a matter of fact, it can be said to be detrimental to the average guy. Have you heard of vanishing loft disease? The modern pitching wedge (for example) has lost from one to two club steps in loft. That means there are pitching wedges out there that have the loft of the old 8 iron, but the shaft length of a pitching wedge. How is the average guy supposed to get the ball off the ground if the equipment companies are screwing him that way?

[Garland Bayley]

Could it be that for the average golfer or the non-professional golfer that the long game has gotten easier due to technological advances but the short game, especially putting has gotten hard because greens speeds have gone up significantly? That could lead to average scores and handicaps being the same.

Steve,

The one part of the game that is easiest to master for high handicapper like me is putting. The hardest thing to master is hitting the ball straight. Therefore, I think your thesis is flawed.

[Terry Lavin]

For some crazy reason I still play Taylor Made blades from 1988.   I'm 52 years old and have begun losing a bit of distance in recent years.

Last summer I rented some clubs while at a conference and on the third hole hit a 6-iron 204 yards on the fly, on flat terrain with little wind.    With my clubs I've been hitting the 6-iron 170 max.

I felt like I was cheating.

And yes, I did score better.

As your attorney, I advise you to cheat!  Get some new clubs.  Hit the ball farther.  Hit shorter clubs into greens.  Get the ball closer to the hole.  Lose a few shots on your handicap.  Embrace middle age, my man.

[Garland Bayley]

For some crazy reason I still play Taylor Made blades from 1988.   I'm 52 years old and have begun losing a bit of distance in recent years.

Last summer I rented some clubs while at a conference and on the third hole hit a 6-iron 204 yards on the fly, on flat terrain with little wind.    With my clubs I've been hitting the 6-iron 170 max.

I felt like I was cheating.

And yes, I did score better.

As your attorney, I advise you to cheat!  Get some new clubs.  Hit the ball farther.  Hit shorter clubs into greens.  Get the ball closer to the hole.  Lose a few shots on your handicap.  Embrace middle age, my man.

You must have pured that 4 iron. With vanishing loft disease the club you hit may have had the loft of the 4 iron in your set.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Think of the difficulty in getting carry distance, approach loft, etc., etc..
...

But yet C B MacDonald disinherited a relative (was it a son) for having the temerity to drive the green on a par 4 that C B said could not be driven. Patrick, you are in denial about the capability of the old equipment. P. T. Barnum to you baby.

[Travis Dewire]

Better equipment, same human brain!!!!!

[SL_Solow]

Garland;  For those of us who grew up playing with persimmon woods, the old blades and balata balls there is no question that we can hit the ball further and that it is harder to make the ball curve to the same extent as the old balls.  Thus older courses that have not adapted through additional length etc have become somewhat easier.  But there has also developed something of an "arms race" in building new courses.  For whatever reason, many new courses have been designed to be able to challenge the pros and older courses have been lengthened and toughened to combat the equipment.  While advances in agronomy and greenskeeping have made for more uniform playing surfaces, they have also led to a competition for the fastest greens, hence the fixation with stimp readings. Many clubs are thickening their roughs and we all know about the issue of excessive tree planting. All of these tend to cancel each other out as far as scoring goes but lead to longer rounds due to course length and more time being spent on and around the greens.  Incidentally, the lower lofts are offset by weight distribution which allows for higher ball flight from lower lofted clubs.

Mike; be careful with Terry's advice.  I suspect that as soon as your handicap is reduced, his Honor will be calling you to arrange a "money" game.  Those guys from Beverly must be watched carefully.

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