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Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rees Jones calls out the Minimalists
« on: May 10, 2011, 08:47:08 PM »
Okay...Rees Jones doesn't call out any by name but i am guessing he is talking about Doak and Coore and Crenshaw. Perhaps more the second since they redid #2, which Jones had previously redone. In the June issue of Golf Magazine there is an article on Jones as the Open Doctor. Here is a quote from the article:

"Jones, while agreeing that he's a strategic designer, asks why a tournament venue would hire an architect who wasn't. "Today's middle-aged achitects are really into aesthetics," he says, taking a shot at the naturalist trend in course design. "They love their wilderness bunkers, which tend to be expensive to build, hard to maintain, and difficult to play out of." An Open Doctor, on the other hand, must maintain playability and enjoyment for the club members while toughening up the course for the pros."

I have played Pinehurst #2 many times - before Jones touched it, after Jones worked on it, and since Coore and Crenshaw did their thing.the course was more playable before Jones' work and much more playable than it ever has been since Coore and Crenshaw worked on it. How is putting 28 yard wide fairways on #2 more strategic and more playable for the members? And #2 was the least enjoyable in my 20 plus years playing it during the Jones rework.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 07:08:23 AM by Steve Kline »
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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2011, 08:52:38 PM »
 8) :-\   8).                 

He's a snob. Lol
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2011, 08:59:32 PM »
Who's he calling middle aged?  If he is not including himself, does that mean he is officially over the hill?  :)

But Steve, your headline is very misleading since he did NOT call me out by name.  Please change the title for the sake of accuracy.
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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2011, 09:10:29 PM »
 8) ;D 8)

Hey TD we were all getting ready to come to your aid, friend!  Howevever, the quality of your work speaks for itself!
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 10:02:49 PM by archie_struthers »
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Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2011, 09:17:10 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on May 10, 2011, 08:59:32 PM
Who's he calling middle aged?  If he is not including himself, does that mean he is officially over the hill?  :)

But Steve, your headline is very misleading since he did NOT call me out by name.  Please change the title for the sake of accuracy.

I do say right off the bat that he does not call you out by name, but there are only a couple of guys he ould be talking about.

How about I put a question mark after it? Now if i can figure out how to do that.
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Andy Troeger

Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2011, 09:28:11 PM »
Quote from: Steve Kline on May 10, 2011, 08:47:08 PM
"Jones, while agreeing that he's a strategic designer, asks why a tournament venue would hire an architect who wasn't. "Today's middle-aged achitects are really into aesthetics," he says, taking a shot at the naturalist trend in course design. "They love their wilderness bunkers, which tend to be expensive to build, hard to maintain, and difficult to play out of." An Open Doctor, on the other hand, must maintain playability and enjoyment for the club members while toughening up the course for the pros."


After Jones' work at Cog Hill, my father and I played it. The bunkers were so deep (on all sides) that he couldn't even walk INTO them with bad knees. I ended up raking balls out bunkers for him most of the day--I think he found one that was accessible. How is that for playability and enjoyment?
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2011, 09:50:21 PM »
Steve,

To maintain intellectual honesty, you should retitle this thread.

I don't think merely adding a question mark restores the integrity/accuracy of the title.
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Mike Sweeney

Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2011, 10:11:52 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on May 10, 2011, 09:50:21 PM

To maintain intellectual honesty, you should retitle this thread.


Steve,

If we are going to have an "intellectually honest" thread, let's try:


Tom Doak has positioned himself and an "Opinion Leader" in Golf Course Architecture and is often a target of criticism by architects he deems to be inferior to Tom Doak !!  ;)


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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2011, 10:38:58 PM »
In the Air Force, we've got the guys we send to other bases to inspect for compliance and look at paperwork and regulations.  On the other hand, we've got the guys we ask to design a battle plan for a tactical air operation on the forward edge of the battle area and then lead that op.  

Jones vs. "middle aged minimalists".  Which one do you think is which?

I think the comment is funny as hell.  I'm really glad the club I'm a member at has a middle aged aesthtician on retainer.


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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2011, 12:32:28 AM »
Steve:

I'll ask again.

And why did you think Rees was talking about me, anyway?  He is criticizing bunkers that are "expensive to build, expensive to maintain, and hard to play out of".  I know my bunkers aren't any more expensive than his.  Sometimes they ARE hard to play out of, but I thought that was the point.

On the other hand, if he did mean to single me out, perhaps the fact that I was recently hired by a club Rees has been involved with for years has something to do with it.
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Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2011, 01:26:54 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on May 11, 2011, 12:32:28 AM
On the other hand, if he did mean to single me out, perhaps the fact that I was recently hired by a club Rees has been involved with for years has something to do with it.

Please be Hazeltine!
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Melvyn Morrow

Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2011, 03:56:03 AM »
“and difficult to play out of”

Surely that’s the whole point of a bunker – it’s a trap, a hazard, to be kept away from.

Perhaps this gentleman needs to get some serous education as to the meaning of sand traps/bunkers before taking on other designers. Christ what's the whole point of a Pot Bunker, The Road Hole Bunker – is it there to make life easy?

Melvyn

PS Who is this Tom Doak ;)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 04:14:36 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »
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Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2011, 04:17:44 AM »
Quote from: Ben Sims on May 10, 2011, 10:38:58 PM
In the Air Force, we've got the guys we send to other bases to inspect for compliance and look at paperwork and regulations.  On the other hand, we've got the guys we ask to design a battle plan for a tactical air operation on the forward edge of the battle area and then lead that op.  
Congratulations.  That may well be the farthest fetched simile I have read on GCA, which really takes some doing.  What the hell does it mean, though?  Does it mean Tom Doak is a combat operative, able to kill a man with a mere glance?  Expert in covert operations and ready leap into mortal comabt at any moment?  If so, I'll be more respectful in future.
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Benny Hillard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2011, 04:49:23 AM »
I recently attended a presentation by a member of the Usga on us open setups.
Two things
1 when I asked about the long term issues with consistent 'pinch' yardages to club members. The response I got was 'nobody has complained yet'
2 the presenter talked down quite heavily the level of involvement Rees jones had in the setup of congressional but said Rees jones would claim a lot.

This second comment was confusing. Any suggestions?

Benny H
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Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2011, 05:12:46 AM »
Steve,

I'm not sure if you've tried to modify you original post or not, but there appears to be a problem with the "Modify" function. When I tried to modify one of my older posts, I got the error message:

An Error Has Occurred!
 
Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again. 
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Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2011, 07:10:20 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on May 11, 2011, 12:32:28 AM
Steve:

I'll ask again.

And why did you think Rees was talking about me, anyway?  He is criticizing bunkers that are "expensive to build, expensive to maintain, and hard to play out of".  I know my bunkers aren't any more expensive than his.  Sometimes they ARE hard to play out of, but I thought that was the point.

On the other hand, if he did mean to single me out, perhaps the fact that I was recently hired by a club Rees has been involved with for years has something to do with it.

It is fixed. I went to bed right after my second post. Had no idea it was so easy modify.

I have no idea how expensive any bunker is to build which is why I focused my comments on the playability.
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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out the Minimalists
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2011, 07:14:55 AM »
Dear Minimalists,
I love you all as if you were my own brother.

Love,
Rees Jones
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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out the Minimalists
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2011, 07:45:44 AM »
At least he's playing on his father's strength, marketing.

Next step? ....Begging
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out the Minimalists
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2011, 08:38:37 AM »
When it comes to "open doctors"...politics plays a leading role....and just as people on this site know who they are preaching to...the same applies for RJ or any other that is preaching to the guys that makes the decisions for the USGA....
I sense that with Mike Davis taking over as ED many of the past "in crowd" are not as comfortable as they once were...also would think Steve Smyers on the EC would bother RJ more than TD.
JMO
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out the Minimalists
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2011, 08:39:41 AM »
I suppose its ironic because in part Rees Jones started the "minimalist" restoration trend with his work at The Country Club prior to the 1988 US Open.
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H.P.S.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out the Minimalists
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2011, 08:43:55 AM »
He's so far off base on this one....I wonder if he gets it.

Not every course needs to be Open Doctored.  If theres a 5 percent chance a pro will ever play said course, whats the purpose of designing  for them?

Jeez.

EDIT - Do we have a link to the actual article?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 01:37:45 PM by Ryan Potts »
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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out the Minimalists
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2011, 10:23:01 AM »
If we took a straw poll, i'm sure most would here would strongly disagree with Mr. Jones. People will say anything and everything to get the next job...and it happens in every industry...especially politics.

But I don't think any of this is unexpected.  These are brutal times when one must claw thier way to even small jobs.  So I'm not surprised to see these kinds of statements floating around out there.
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Matt_Ward

Re: Rees Jones calls out the Minimalists
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2011, 10:23:36 AM »
Guys -- what's so funny is how ALL architects have egos the size of Texas.

They EACH believe THEIR version of what they do is beyond all others.

So be it ... nothing new on that front.
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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out the Minimalists
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2011, 10:38:52 AM »
Quote from: Matt_Ward on May 11, 2011, 10:23:36 AM
Guys -- what's so funny is how ALL architects have egos the size of Texas.

They EACH believe THEIR version of what they do is beyond all others.

So be it ... nothing new on that front.

Matt,
We all have egos....that how things get done...I do think the idealist architect ego is much larger than the realist...but what caused this????
Pete dye said the following:

“In 1970 when Jack got into the business the idea of tying an architects name and that architect’s particular style was unheard of.  Ever wonder why so many Donald Ross course no longer exist?  It’s because no one placed a value on a name.  For the first 70 years that golf was played in the U.S., a course was just a place to play golf, and the architect was no better known or regarded than the greenskeeper.  Quick, how many greenskeepers can you name?  Jack changed that.  His mere presence in the business lent credibility to all of us. Only after Jack gave birth to the notion of tying a name to a course did veteran designers begin to get the credit due them….example…during WWII…I was stationed a Ft. Bragg and played Pinehurst #2 everyday for six months…….I honestly couldn’t have told Donald Ross from Betsy Ross.”
Pete Dye- foreword of “Nicklaus By Design” 2002

when we get back to that point as he describes above...all will be fine with golf...
But we still got o get he egos of the raters and writers in check....right?



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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones calls out Doak and others
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2011, 10:40:49 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on May 11, 2011, 12:32:28 AM
Steve:


On the other hand, if he did mean to single me out, perhaps the fact that I was recently hired by a club Rees has been involved with for years has something to do with it.
[/font]


ta-da - you hit it one the head Tom .......................  he refers to me as the "dry cleaner"  (in this case a badge of honor)
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson
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