Rich Goodale's Architectural Evolution of Dornoch

« **on:** January 28, 2002, 09:36:10 AM »

...is now posted under In My Opinion.

Amongst other things, it highlights just how much change this links has seen and yet through it all, the work by the different people still ties in beautifully together.

As Rich speculates, surely there must be lessons to be learned in there somewhere!

Cheers,

« **Reply #1 on:** January 28, 2002, 10:22:15 AM »

WOW! Fantastic, Rich.

You do have a bit of time on your hands these days, eh?

TH

« **Reply #2 on:** January 28, 2002, 11:26:19 AM »

Huckster

It only took a full Clorox work week, about 4 hours. Of course, it shows it.....

Rich

« **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2002, 11:44:32 AM »

Rich, nice shot, but your work is excellent.

« **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2002, 11:55:02 AM »

Four hours is a full week? Damn, I've been doing way too much OT putting in 6 all these years....

TH

ps - another hard-earned vacation day comes this Friday... Shadow Lakes/BBQ/college basketball... yes, it's a tough job!

« **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2002, 07:31:22 PM »

Rich:

Great stuff - guess I'd better play Struie on my next trip.

Cheers,
CO

« **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2002, 09:29:30 PM »

Rich,
Love the Struie. Thought I was somebody and then I went to the big course and #6 slapped me in the face.
The new holes sound great, can't wait to see them.
Did they have to move the caravan park?

« **Reply #7 on:** January 29, 2002, 07:31:16 AM »

Whitey

The new holes are at the other end of the property, out past the airfield to the southwest towards the bridge and Skibo. The caravan park (which technically sits on the North Sea and not the Dornoch Firth) shall remain.

Rich

« **Reply #8 on:** January 29, 2002, 07:55:54 AM »

Rich:

Nice work!

Ambitous project indeed!

Question;

Are the dues still very reasonable?

The cost of such a project in the U.S. would force most members out.

Is it just the fact that the club already owns the land?

« **Reply #9 on:** January 29, 2002, 08:15:38 AM »

Ed

I am continuously amazed by US economics. RDGC is essentially building 6 new first-class golf holes out of free cash flow (including the land purchase, which was made several years ago). Because it's on links/dunesland very little drainage work will be needed. Haven't received this years sunscription, but if I have to pay as much for a year's play on two courses as for one round at Pebble Beach (or even CordeValle!) I'll be very surprised--and the natives will start an uprising!

Cheers

Rich

« **Reply #10 on:** January 29, 2002, 08:22:17 AM »

Go ahead Rich, make me weep.

God do you have life figured out....

TH

« **Reply #11 on:** January 29, 2002, 11:44:09 AM »

Can't wait to read this, as I have not visited Dornoch, and am quickly manifesting a fascination with it. Just getting into Lorne Rubenstein's book now, and loving it. What a magical place it must be.

« **Reply #12 on:** January 30, 2002, 07:11:35 PM »

I have been to Scotland, but Dornoch unfortunately was not on my rotation. Nevertheless, good job with the article. These dissertations do take up alot of time. Seems like you enjoy writing as well!

« **Reply #13 on:** January 30, 2002, 07:50:29 PM »

Damn fine job there Rich. One little nit, it's Robert Price, not Charles Price who wrote Scotland's Golf Courses.

Now that I finally rehooked up my scanner, if you need any art, let me know. I could scan in the Dornoch routing from the Old Tom Scrapbook if you'd like.

Quote

"About this toun are the fairest and largest linkes of any pair of Scotland, fitt for Archery, Goffing, Ryding, and all other exercises; they do surpasse the fields of Montrose or St. Andrews."
--Sir Robert Gordon (writing about Dornoch, 1630)

« **Reply #14 on:** January 30, 2002, 09:00:24 PM »

Rich, thanks for the fun read about Dornoch. I must admit that I would have been quite lost trying to visualize the narrative report without the aid of p179 in "The Scrap Book..." and p40-41. "The World Golf Atlas". The Scrap book talks about it being the driest course and the greatest stand of turf in the north country. What does "morangie" mean for the old 13th? Is it like our morrain?

« **Reply #15 on:** January 30, 2002, 09:19:31 PM »

Dick

"Morangie" means "tranquility" in gaelic. The hole is so named, I think, because from the tee you have a fantastic view straight across the Droncoh Firth to the Glenmorangie distillery in Tain. BTW, the proper way to pronounce Glenmorangie is to rhyme with "orangey" (as in fruitish). Those who accent the 3rd syllable (glen-mor-AN-gie) are legion, but terribly wrong....

Dan

Was it then Robert Price who was on What's My Line? and did that great book called "Droodles?" Thanks for catching the first of what I am sure are many errors in my memory-piece. By all means scan in the OTM diagram. I'd like to see it myself again and I'm too cheap to buy the book! While you're at it, also scan in any current course diagram you might have so others don't need to go to their reference books like Dick. Thanks!

Cheers

Rich

« **Reply #16 on:** January 31, 2002, 12:05:51 AM »

Further proof that I have to get to Dornoch!

« **Reply #17 on:** January 31, 2002, 09:49:09 AM »

Anyone else see the irony in Rich's home course utilizing 3 "natural" geological formations for much of its strategy?

Great work, Rich, liked it almost as much as your original writeup on the playability of the course. Is the course in better hands now than when the disastrous decisions regarding the 3d occured?

« **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2002, 09:57:46 AM »

George

I saw the irony! The debacle at the 3rd happened becuae the club forget to lodge a formal objection when the planning permits for the new houses were filed. There are lawyers in Scotland too, alas!

PS--they are the houses that you noted in a photo submitted of the 13th several months ago!

PPS--in thinking about my piece, I'm now wondering whether or not the ridge on which the old 1st green used to sit (by my theory) and the ridge which guards the right side of the new fairway were once joined. Is it possible that the current 1st fairway was created by cutting a path through that ridge? Seems like a lot of earth to have been moved in the early 20th century, but it is an intriguing possibility........

« **Reply #19 on:** January 31, 2002, 10:06:43 AM »

George
I picked that up too. But you have to admit Rich is consistent in his inconsistency - the definition of a truly great contrarian.

Rich
Excellent work. Other the second do you know if Ross was involved in any other holes? And any idea when he was involved with the redesign?

What did JH Taylor do, if anything? And was Newton Wethered involved in any of the redesign of the course?

What was Duncan's connection to Dornoch?

« **Reply #20 on:** January 31, 2002, 10:32:12 AM »

Tom

Thanks. I am being contrary, but consistent, I think! My evolving view is that great golf is a combination of man and nature, with the important understanding that man is a part of nature. Sometimes, man lets "nature" take precedence (e.g. Foxy) and other times he takes matters into his own hands (e.g. th 2nd).

As to your questions, I really don't know. What I wrote was really mostly from memory, of the course and its landforms and of the old diagrams, and bits and pieces that I have read in various places.

My understanding about Ross's involvement is that he came back to visit from time to time and made suggestions, but that Sutherland made most of the final decisions. Maybe Brad Klein or other Rossophiles can answer that question better. Taylor also seems to have given some advice, but whre or when or how much I do not know. As did, probably the Wethered's. Who was Newton W.? Joyce and Roger's brother, I assume. Never heard of him before. Also don't know why they chose Duncan for hte new 6 holes. Is it possible that he (and maybe a few others such as MacKenzie Ross) were the only archies out there in those post-war days?

One thing that intrigues me is that it is unclear whether or not Old Tom laid out 18 holes or just 9. He certainly started with 9. Wonder which ones those were? There's lots more to be learned on this subject.......

« **Reply #21 on:** January 31, 2002, 01:53:03 PM »

I don't think anyone would dispute there are times when nature should dominate and times where nature did leave much and man must take the lead - but let me ask you which hole is superior #2 or #14?

Newton Wethered was an art historian and the father of Joyce and Roger. He was also major promoter of Dornoch and co-author of the Architectural Side of Golf w/ Tom Simpson. Duncan wasn't really an active architect and was inovled in very few designs - and those were more or less as a consultant. Colt, Alison and Morrison were still around, although Colt was not really active. MacKenzie Ross and Guy Campbell. And I think Simpson was still doing work. And although he was near the end, Dornoch's favorite son was still designing golf courses.

« **Reply #22 on:** January 31, 2002, 02:22:32 PM »

Tom

I think that the 2nd and 14th are both as good holes of their type (i.e. short-medium 3, long 4) as there are in the world. Other than that I'm incapable of comparing them to each other.

Thanks for the other info. Regardless of why they chose Duncan, I think he did fantastic work. I don't think that Ross would have been in the picture at that time, as I don't think he had visited for many years, and was thought of more as just one of those many sons who had left the Highlands to seek their fortune rather than some sort of iconic figure. Interesting about Wethered Pere. Given that one of the most influential early Captains was the (apparently) acclaimed artist AJ Ryle, maybe there is some sort of A&C connection?

« **Reply #23 on:** January 31, 2002, 03:20:08 PM »

Not an iconic figure is an understatement, acccording to Klein's book the town and Sutherland didn't have too much favorably to say about Ross. He attributed it to a combination of his families (Mother's) strict orthodox religious background and the fact that his father was somewhat of a local misfit. I think I read the town didn't formally recongnize him until the last decade or so. Even with that cold shoulder Ross evidently put the town of Dornoch as his sole benifactor in the evident that his closest relatives passed before him.

I'm not sure about the artist AJ Ryle's A&C connection (I've never heard of him, although there was a wealthy art collector by the name of Arthur Ryle), but Duncan was clearly a disciple.

« **Reply #24 on:** January 31, 2002, 04:34:56 PM »

Tom

AJ Ryle was Arthur J. Probably the same guy. A member of the Royal Academy, so he wasn't too shabby with the old palette. A few of his paintings reside in the RDGC clubhouse. He owned a house off the 1st green right next to the house the Wethered's rented each year.

From what I've heard, Dornoch was more bemused by Ross' prominence in the States than anything. A few of the cannier residents used this knowledge to wangle a few perks from visiting Colonists (e.g. trips to Augusta and Pinehurst) long before the town woke up to the marketing potential of his name and did a little bit of promotional activity. Still very low key, however. I think Brad overdoes the religious thing in his book, but that's just a matter of opinion. In DJR's day all of the three sects of the Church of Scotland were pretty Calvinist and "orthodox." As long as you weren't a Catholic, you were OK.

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