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cary lichtenstein

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Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farmingt
« on: May 02, 2003, 06:04:06 AM »
Starting a trip in Vail, Colo and finishing in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Below are the courses I have tentatively pencilled in. Should I cross out any? What are I missing?

Summit
Red Sky 2 courses
Redlands Mesa
Telluride GC
The Cliffs
Pinon Hills
Las Campanas 2 courses
Twin Warriors
Paa Ko Ridge
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

A_Clay_Man

Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2003, 06:18:07 AM »
I can recommend seeing the backnine at Riverview while you're in Farmington. It's in Kirtland and is the best linksy feeling you can get. Open windswept and fun. The nine consists of three par 3's three 4's and 3 five 5's. As for the frontnine, it is challenging but lacks much land movement and If you can ignore the refinery, it's beautiful. Other than that, Devil's thumb in Delta is suppose to be worthy but I can't personally report until after the 15th when I get back from Monticello's Hideout.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2003, 06:53:19 AM »
If you don't visit The Hideout in Monticello, UT I will be forever hurt and will not send you any holiday gifts. (The Hideout is 2 hours north/east from Farmington.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2003, 06:53:45 AM »
No Aspen? If this is golf related, skip Telluride for Aspen and play Maroon Creek. If golf is not the focus, do not miss Telluride.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2003, 07:21:16 AM »
quassi:

Skip Las Campanas -- it's OK Jack but nothing super special. As alternatives I would recommend the following in New Mexico:

Santa Ana (also just north of Albuquerque) *play the main two nines that are usually used for tournaments -- I believe it's the Tamaya and Cheenya nines.

Also, just opening up in Espanola is Black Mesa. I plan on playing the course in the next 10 days or so.

Durango is a fun town but the golf is really more r-e-s-o-r-t type stuff.

I second what Forrest said about The Hideout -- I intend on playing it when I head west.

Devil's Thumb in Delta is a also a worthy stop, but just keep in mind impeccable grooming is not the primary attribute when compared to Redlands Mesa.

I also agree with SPDB on Maroon Creek -- the holes across the road really juice up the experience. I really enjoyed this TF layout and it's got more juice than plenty of the mountain courses.

Hope this helps ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2003, 07:51:47 AM »
One more thing: Do NOT miss Goosenecks State Park just north of the Utah state line from Arizona/New Mexico — a few minutes off Hwy. 191 — Goosenecks is the most spectacular view you may ever see of an etched river. Plan on just 15 minutes...but it will be absolutely breathtaking.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Doug Wright

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Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2003, 12:38:45 PM »
quassi,

I'd skip both Cliffs in Durango and Telluride. As Matt says they're resort courses and not too interesting IMO. Play Pinon Hills twice vs Durango.

Once prominent but now overshadowed by Paa-Ko in ABQ is University of New Mexico South. I really like UNM South (Red Lawrence), and if you're going to be flying out of ABQ it's 5 minutes from the airport.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Steve Lapper

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Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2003, 01:16:10 PM »
Quassi...

  Don't listen to SPDB and Matt about Aspen. I lived there for many years and have played all the area tracks. Maroon Creek is exceptionally expensive and exceptional at nothing else! It represents a wonderful job of stuffing 18 holes into a hillside, but falls way short past its grooming and location. The membership is limited to those who have $$ and no taste, local real estate fortunes or felony convictions. Local lore will correctly tell you there is at least one fistfight a season between members. (See if you can time it right and get a ringside seat!)

  My choices would be Aspen Glen or the Roaring Fork Club (Both vastly superior to Red Sky's pair). I would also take a look at the Breckinridge town course....from the tips, it is a wonderful test of everything you have in the bag.

  I can help with Roaring Fork if you need it.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2003, 02:29:39 PM »
BLACK MESA is not to be missed!




See the Pinon thread for a few other pictures.

Also by Ken Dye - Dalton Ranch Golf Club 1991 Durango, CO
(he designed Pinon and Paa-Ko)
Black Mesa was designed by his partner Baxter Spann.

Cheers
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Matt_Ward

Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2003, 03:28:27 PM »
Steve (aka the "slapper):

Puhleeeeeeze -- enough of Aspen Glen -- this is the standard fair for Nicklaus Design et al with all the usual over produced type golf. ::)

I do concur with you on Roaring Fork in Basalt and Breckenridge but I think a good 19th hole discussion would ensue regarding if they THAT MUCH better than MC.

I said I liked MC -- yes, it's certainly wedged in a few holes on the side of the mountain, but please tell me what holes are really bad -- save the start and conclusion which are on the clubhouse side of the road.

quassi -- Doug W is right on target with UNM / South but the issue there is always putting down too much H20 on the layout -- Paa Ko Ridge has had a bit of this too. Just realize that if both courses are indeed firm then you will experience some exceptional golf.

One last thing -- the last picture that Mike N posted is the 16th at Black Mesa -- I saw the hole when I visited the site last September and the hole is T-R-E-M-E-N-D-O-U-S! It's somewhat similar to the 15th at PV in that it becomes narrower the further you go. A superb routing by architect Baxter Spann to take a course from one location of the property and bring you back in fine fashion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2003, 07:17:48 PM »


Dear Matt "aka" Brutus:

  Glad to hear about some agreement, but I respectfully disagree to even remotely agree. MC has a few holes worth something, but fewer worth any more than mention.  Yes, all the holes on the ranch side, with the exception of #2 , are totally unnotable. Once across the highway, the initial par 3 (#5), the short but fun #6 , and #7 uphill 4 par stand out, but few others do more than offer a goat's workout.  Only #15 really makes the cut for a par 5. #12 and 13 are okay holes, but very gimmicky. The remaining par 3's and fours are so weak.  #'s 14/16/17 are absolutely bland and offer no redeeming shot value variety. They just follow each other and little else. #9 is perhaps the worst par 3 I've ever played. It is approximately 200-160yds (at 10,000 feet above sea level) with OB left and the progressive slant of a hillside that invariably drains left exactly onto or into the green. It is literally built to reward bad pushed or sliced shots. Many of the other holes do just the same job. Fazio has made it so weak golfers have an easy time finding their missed shots right in the middle of the fairway....Matt, you must like this feature for the other Nicklaus courses nearby don't ever allow the same.
  I would grant you that nothing in the RF Valley will wildly excite anything but the aesthetic senses of a golfer, but JN has outdesigned TF by a high altitude 5 miles.

  Matty my boy...I've got you here...I lived there, played all the places, often competitively, over 30 times each.

  Now look out the door of your rental car and pick me up to catch a piece of Black Mesa...it looks awesome.

 :-*
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2003, 07:34:44 PM »

 Matt

You have made it rather obvious that you do not particularly like Nicklaus golf courses with your comments about Las Campanas and Aspen Glen.  For my own edification, would you explain what your are referring to when you say AG is "standard JN fair with  usual over produced type golf".

It is really hard for me to conceive that anyone would like MC over LC and/or AG.  But, that is what makes life go around isn't it?

I'll be interested in your explanation.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2003, 08:44:52 PM »
Forrest, I just pulled up a map of the Four Corners area - wouldn't that be Monticello UT is two hours Northwest of Farmington?   Unless there's some Bermuda Triangle stuff going on there in the Four Corners...........(eerie music here)!
 8)   Funny - I'd been thinking of that NM trip and didn't realize Monticello is only two hours.  Loved the Golf Journal series and want to get to the Hideout.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2003, 11:21:57 PM »
Yes, Bill. I stand corrected. It is north/west. Having driven it 30 times I must have always been looking east.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2003, 03:34:24 AM »
Matty Boy,

PS...I've seen two Aces on MC's #9 in my time...both really bad irons that ran off the right hand slope....either shot would have been no better than a heroic up and down anywhere else.

I've also seen a 20hcp make eagle 2x on #8 with crappie, ugly but effective mishits that ran around the surrounding hills...great course architecture from such an acknowledged master..just missing a windmill and clowns-mouth!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2003, 11:49:46 AM »
An hour from Vail in Leadville is the 'Highest Golf Course in North America', not a bad diversion and you can hit some unreal shots at that altitude. The Vail Valley doesn't have any bargains but if you're there I'd recommend Singletree which I think is Semi-Private. If you have the connections CC of the Rockies is my favorite Nicklaus course. Also the Vail Muni or the Course at Eagle Vail are fun. The course at Beaver Creek would be a good one to add to the "I walked it" list as you'd have to be part mountain goat. Can't vouch for the courses at Cordillera but I've heard some good reports.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Mike_Cirba

Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2003, 07:46:07 PM »
My experience in Colorado is unfortunately limited, so I have little basis for comparision, but I agree with Slapper...the Nicklaus course at Breckenridge is really enjoyable.  Scenic, interesting, varied, playable, and strategic, I would play it again in a heartbeat.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2003, 05:54:51 AM »
I thought the highest course was Cloudcroft in New Mexico...9,000 ft. I believe....?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tim Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2003, 02:32:44 PM »
Here's another vote for Santa Ana, outside of Albuquerque.

TimT
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2003, 02:36:34 PM »

Forrest

I'm not sure which course is considered the highest, but The Summit Course at Cordillera's 18th tee/fairway is at 9040.  The lowest point on the course is at 8640.  
See ya next week!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2003, 03:32:41 PM »
JWL:

Let me say at the outset that I rate courses irrespective of who the designer is and I believe my assessments of courses follow a pragmatic position -- in sum -- there's no absolute right or wrong in my book -- I judge them on their individual merits and don't get sucked into the fancy pictures many of these high profile real estate developments put forward through their well designed collateral matreials. Some here on GCA follow the idea that if person "X" designs the course then ipso facto it must be something special. I don't do that, or at the minimum, don't do it consciously.

I do like plenty of Jack's works and for a time I was a big fan of Geronimo at Desert Mountain until Lyle Anderson saw fit to change the 13th and 14th holes. ???

I have played Aspen Glen and Las Campanas and both are heavily shaped. They are layouts where man's hand is clearly seen. In some of the holes at both courses you find the standard mounding and shaping so that all the holes have the GQ or Vanity Fair model look. There is little for the golfer to "guess" about because everything is layed out in the same manner that food is served at your basic cafeteria -- just walk through the line and go from there.

I don't doubt the locale "adds" the experience because when yo look at Mt. Sopris in the background at AG and you have such striking features from the terrain off-site at Las Campanas but it's the desire to run roughshod over the property and impose the carpeted "been there" -- "done that" look that turned me off.

Please don't misunderstand me I believe both facilities do present a fair test of golf and there are quite a few holes that can be demanding when the tees and pins are placed accordingly. But, in the final analysis -- it's the overdone grandiose style that provides little mystery to add to the expectation of future rounds.

Now, let me mention among some of Jack's recent designs I thoroughly enjoyed Old Works in Anaconda, MT (arguably the best value course anyone can play given what many Jack courses cost to play) and I believe the Chirichua Course at Desert Mountain is a bonafide candidate for top five consideration in the Grand Canyon State. I also believe Great Bear in Marshalls Creek, PA is one of the top 4-5 public courses in all of the Keystone State and is so grossly undervalued by the major publications. There are others I could also mention but my fingers are tiring.

Let me once again clarify my comments about MC. I didn't put the course up on a pedestal and make it out to be the secomd coming of Moses! ;D

I will defer to the comments of Slapper and yourself since you've probably played them more times than I have (I played MC twice and I've played AG and LC -- both 18's just once).
I liked what TF did with the property -- BUT I ALSO MENTIONED THAT THE HOLES ON THE ROAD CLOSEST TO THE CLUBHOUSE WERE SIMPLY MAILED IN AND UNINSPIRING. Somehow I think people just take out one or two sentences and then begin to assert that Ward said this when one needs to look at the totality of what was realy said. I hope this helps.

P.S. For what it's worth I also like Haymaker in Steamboat Springs. A fine Keith Foster design that gets little attention but that goes beyond the immediate geography area that is a part of this thread.

One last thing -- glad to see someone else mention Santa Ana -- the two 9-hole layouts I mentioned (Tamaya & Cheenya) are very good as many people will automaticaly head over to Twin Warrior.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2003, 06:43:57 PM »

Matt

You have explained that you think that AG and LC are over shaped with the standard mounding.  You stated that you do not base your opinion of a course on who the architect might be.  However, you seem to have a preconceived opinion of Nicklaus designs because you have in your mind that AG and LC are "standard fair of over produced type golf."  This indicates to me that you have a predetermined what a Nicklaus design looks and plays like.  
I also don't really understand what you are referring to when
you  say Nicklaus ran "roughshod" over the site with standard mounding and shaping.
You couldn't be more wrong in your assessment.  But, there clearly isn't enough room on this board or time to point out hole by hole how/why you are mistaken.
If you don't like the courses, that is certainly OK with me.  I just want to clarify for any others that may be reading this thread, that I do not agree that your descriptions and assessments of these two fine courses are accurate.  I am referring to the Sunrise course at LC, since I haven't seen the Sunset course grassed.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Buck Wolter

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Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2003, 07:52:40 PM »

Mount Massive Golf Course (public)
259 County Rd 5
Leadville, CO 80461
(719)486-2176, fax (719)486-1536

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This facility claims that its course was built at the highest elevation in North America, 10,000 feet about sea level.  The course was built at the bases of Mt. Elbert, Colorado's highest mountain, and Mt. Massive, Colorado's second highest mountain. It was built in an extremely scenic valley that is home to an abundance of wildlife, such as prairie dogs, elk, and deer. The natural rough, a combination of sagebrush and wildflowers, is very fragile at this altitude, so carts are not permitted in the rough. There is an additional set of tees that can be used when playing an eighteen hole round.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2003, 08:46:35 PM »
Quassi,

You're on the right track with your original courses as modified by the first few suggestions, so...

--Fugeddaboud any courses in and around Vail till you get to Cordillera to the west in Edwards. There are no really golfworthy courses around Vail especially for the $$$, including Beaver Creek, Vail Muny (intensely boring) and Eagle Vail (a true goat track). Singletree (now Sonnenalp) is OK but missable vs the others on your list.

--Breckenridge is my favourite Colorado mountain course but if you're starting in Vail and heading west it's going the wrong way. Breck is 40 minutes east of  Vail. Same for Haymaker in Steamboat. A very good course but way outta da way to the northwest.

--Mt. Massive in Leadville? No way, unless you're there to hike some 14ers and heading over Independence Pass to Aspen...

If you want more detail send me a message.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

A_Clay_Man

Re: Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farm
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2003, 06:04:03 AM »
Jwl- I have golfed the Sunset course at LC and felt it was like a symphony. Climaxing with the ultimate in all water carrys. I found the course to be long and an arduous walk. The front nine starts with all the openness needed for all levels of golfer, but then (around the fifth hole) the par 5 that zigs and zags, found me scratching my head. Maybe cause I played the hole poorly, but even so, there seemed to be few options for recovery from the left side. The following tee is way up the hill and the slight jog back towards play seemed odd.
The backnine's differences become immediatly apparent, especially at the green. I felt the green shapes became more interesting on the back and the use of the natural wash was truely inspired. The par 3's were all strong and there was enough variety to make it interesting. A solid golf course where if you were forced to play there everyday, you wouldn't be disappointed.

I would be interested in your recollection of any of the aspects that I noticed plus if you could add any of your own, some of us dilatante's have inquiring minds. ;D

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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