[Sean_A]

Sean

Thanks.  Comparing it to Portrush really does put some perspective on the situation.  To me this means PD is an extremely demanding driver's course if there is any significant wind about with the odd serious penalty for not being terribly far off target.  As J Kirk would say, the course should accomodate those shots.  That said, Portrush is still a great course that is a must see at least once/twice.  I have been told PD is quite open to visitors - almost GB&I style.  Is this true?

Ciao

The corridors are generally a bit wider than RP, but that is what it feels like yes. Shots that are30 yards offline are still in play. Shots that are 50 are often tomes not.

As far as visitors, yes, although it is rather pricey to play without a member.

Sean

Do you mean 30 yards off the edge of the fairway or from the middle? 

Ciao

[Sean Leary]

Sean

Thanks.  Comparing it to Portrush really does put some perspective on the situation.  To me this means PD is an extremely demanding driver's course if there is any significant wind about with the odd serious penalty for not being terribly far off target.  As J Kirk would say, the course should accomodate those shots.  That said, Portrush is still a great course that is a must see at least once/twice.  I have been told PD is quite open to visitors - almost GB&I style.  Is this true?

Ciao

The corridors are generally a bit wider than RP, but that is what it feels like yes. Shots that are30 yards offline are still in play. Shots that are 50 are often tomes not.

As far as visitors, yes, although it is rather pricey to play without a member.

Sean

Do you mean 30 yards off the edge of the fairway or from the middle?  

Ciao

Depends on the hole.  Maybe I have my yardages off a bit.  At no point(other than maybe 7, do you look at the tee shot and say it feels remotely tight. Big misses are close to going in there on most holes. Balls that just bounce in are normally findable 90 percent of the time, Ones that go 40 yards in are generally not. Holes that are into the prevailing wind or crosswind are generally really, really wide. Downwind, less so. Again someone good with google earth could measure it. I have played a couple of rounds with a 4some of sub 5 handicappers where no one has lost a ball.  But I have lost 6 balls in a round before too as a 5, as I am a bit wild. Generally, even scratch guys lose 1. But scratch guys generally don't play it super safe, either.

Edit. Just looked at the aerial and I am guessing that the average width on most of the holes is 70 to 80 yards between the gunch, which play wider when you take into account the doglegs. A couple are less, a couple are more.

[Dale_McCallon]

For anyone more interested in PD, shoot me an Email.  I've got a few extra copies of "Perry  Maxwell's Prairie Dunes" by Mal Elliott.  The book is from 2002 so the course may have gone through some changes since, but it has an interesting bit on the history and a hole by hole description of the place.  I've never played there, but I love the look of the place.  Hoping someday to make it to Hutchinson.

I'll give the books away to whoever asks. Or if you feel generous donate something to Colton's golfathon.

[David Kelly]

Mike,

PD is significantly wider than Muirfield and Gullane #1.  In fact, the fairways are pretty wide for any course and with the number of doglegs the fairways can play even wider.  From gunch on the left to gunch on the right the holes are generally 80-100yds wide.  Unless a golfer is wild and just fires away with impunity I don't think it is as big an issue as some think.

All the worrying about the gunch leaves out the fact that, as Chris said at the beginning, Prairie Dunes has a fantastic set of greens and to me as good a set of greens as there are in the world. I think they are better than Crystal Downs because the green speeds, while fast, are kept manageable so there is not the threat of putting off of a green on many holes like there is at Crystal Downs.  That doesn't mean you can't putt off them, but you are not lagging everything like at CD or Oakmont.  Also there are no over the top greens like, in my opinion Crystal Downs #11.

[C. Squier]

One of the neatest things about PD is that the tee boxes added over time not only blend in, but transform the holes in a hugely positive way. I can't think of a course that has been so impacted by new, longer tees.

I also believe that if PD sat on Long Island, it would be one of the most talked about courses in the world.

[Terry Lavin]

PD is a great track, one of the best in the country and one of the most significant in terms of the history of golf course architecture in the States.  The "new" nine does blend relatively seamlessly, in terms of the look of the holes, even if the routing is a tad awkward.  The naturalness of the site is simply amazing.  Having said that, I can't help but think that the course could be improved with a thoughtful tree clearing and an attempt to either thin out the "gunch" or to widen some of the fairways to make them less torturous.  But PD is one of those places where one accepts the "warts" because they are such a small part of the overall equation which is a magical golf experience in the middle of nowhere atop what must have been a prehistoric inland sea.

[David Kelly]

The "new" nine does blend relatively seamlessly, in terms of the look of the holes, even if the routing is a tad awkward.  Having said that, I can't help but think that the course could be improved with a thoughtful tree clearing

Terry,

I don't see the routing as being awkward at all.  It is routed so that the prevailing wind is either at your back or in your face on almost every hole.  If you want to see a course that was routed without consideration for the wind just take a left out of Prairie Dunes and go about 3 or 4 miles to see what is left of Nick Faldo's NLE Cottonwood Hills.

The holes are routed naturally through the dunes and the walks from greens to tees are very short although since many tee boxess are on top of dunes you do have to climb up stairs on a number of holes.    What do you find awkward about it?

I do agree that they could clear out the big cottonwoods on the left side of #12.  The bunkers on the left already keep the golfer away from that side.  But besides Hole 12 there are no trees on the course that come into play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris Cupit,

I haven't read any of the responses, but, for me Prairie Dunes was special in many ways.

As you drive from Hutchinson, or other points far away, as you near Prairie Dunes you see a sudden transformation of the topography.

Suddenly, you transition from flatlands to sharply rolling terrain, and it's then that you start to realize that you're about to see something unique and unexpected.

Prairie Dunes is an oasis in the plains.  A departure from the surrounding lands that stretch for many miles.

As you enter the property, besides the terrain, I was struck by the understated, simple clubhouse.

The golf course is pretty neat, especially when you consider when and where it was crafted.

The 8th hole was my favorite hole.
But, there were many, many more I enjoyed.
I enjoyed the routing, the individual hole and feature designs.

The dunes give it a Maidstone like quality, as does the wind.

I'm pretty sure that winds of 50-60 mph are beyond my playing ability.
With fast greens, I don't see how balls can remain stationary.

I had understood that Prairie Dunes was offering very attractive non-resident memberships.
Is that still the case ?

[Sean Leary]

Pat played in a US Mid-Am there in the late 80's.

Heard it played very difficult that year. Story goes that there was a 5 man for 2 spots in a playoff for match play on the par 3 10th. The two that advanced made double bogey to move on....

 

[Ken Moum]

If you want to see a course that was routed without consideration for the wind just take a left out of Prairie Dunes and go about 3 or 4 miles to see what is left of Nick Faldo's NLE Cottonwood Hills.

I don't think that's fair to Cottonwood. I played it on back-to-back days in the two most common winds here in KS.  The first day it was the common winter wind from the northwest, and the next day it was s stiff wind out of the southeast, which is what we get here almost every day of summer.

My first comment to friends was that it was obvious that Faldo (or someone) knew which way the wind blows on the prairie....  It was a good 5 shots easier in the SE wind.

K

K

[David Kelly]

If you want to see a course that was routed without consideration for the wind just take a left out of Prairie Dunes and go about 3 or 4 miles to see what is left of Nick Faldo's NLE Cottonwood Hills.

I don't think that's fair to Cottonwood. I played it on back-to-back days in the two most common winds here in KS.  The first day it was the common winter wind from the northwest, and the next day it was s stiff wind out of the southeast, which is what we get here almost every day of summer.

My first comment to friends was that it was obvious that Faldo (or someone) knew which way the wind blows on the prairie....  It was a good 5 shots easier in the SE wind.

Ken,

I only played it twice so maybe you probably have more experience with Cottonwood Hills but one of the times I played it I found it virtually unplayable because of the wind despite the fact that I had finished a round earlier in the day down the street at PD and didn't have nearly the same problems.

Anyway, Cottonwood Hills was quite a botched project.  Leaving aside the pipe dream of the planned community that they wanted to build, the land that the course sat on was fantastic and while it wasn't as good as the land at PD someone like Coore, or Doak could have built something special.  I always thought that the club should have bought the land and had Axland build a real low cost, low maintenance course there.

[Sean_A]

Sean

Thanks.  Comparing it to Portrush really does put some perspective on the situation.  To me this means PD is an extremely demanding driver's course if there is any significant wind about with the odd serious penalty for not being terribly far off target.  As J Kirk would say, the course should accomodate those shots.  That said, Portrush is still a great course that is a must see at least once/twice.  I have been told PD is quite open to visitors - almost GB&I style.  Is this true?

Ciao

The corridors are generally a bit wider than RP, but that is what it feels like yes. Shots that are30 yards offline are still in play. Shots that are 50 are often tomes not.

As far as visitors, yes, although it is rather pricey to play without a member.

Sean

Do you mean 30 yards off the edge of the fairway or from the middle?  

Ciao

Depends on the hole.  Maybe I have my yardages off a bit.  At no point(other than maybe 7, do you look at the tee shot and say it feels remotely tight. Big misses are close to going in there on most holes. Balls that just bounce in are normally findable 90 percent of the time, Ones that go 40 yards in are generally not. Holes that are into the prevailing wind or crosswind are generally really, really wide. Downwind, less so. Again someone good with google earth could measure it. I have played a couple of rounds with a 4some of sub 5 handicappers where no one has lost a ball.  But I have lost 6 balls in a round before too as a 5, as I am a bit wild. Generally, even scratch guys lose 1. But scratch guys generally don't play it super safe, either.

Edit. Just looked at the aerial and I am guessing that the average width on most of the holes is 70 to 80 yards between the gunch, which play wider when you take into account the doglegs. A couple are less, a couple are more.

That does sound wider than Portrush especially if crosswinds aren't usually an issue.

Ciao

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

Definitely wider than Portrush. And there are only of crosswind holes with   the normal south wind.

[Terry Lavin]

The "new" nine does blend relatively seamlessly, in terms of the look of the holes, even if the routing is a tad awkward.  Having said that, I can't help but think that the course could be improved with a thoughtful tree clearing

Terry,

I don't see the routing as being awkward at all.  It is routed so that the prevailing wind is either at your back or in your face on almost every hole.  If you want to see a course that was routed without consideration for the wind just take a left out of Prairie Dunes and go about 3 or 4 miles to see what is left of Nick Faldo's NLE Cottonwood Hills.

The holes are routed naturally through the dunes and the walks from greens to tees are very short although since many tee boxess are on top of dunes you do have to climb up stairs on a number of holes.    What do you find awkward about it?

I do agree that they could clear out the big cottonwoods on the left side of #12.  The bunkers on the left already keep the golfer away from that side.  But besides Hole 12 there are no trees on the course that come into play.

I was only referring to how you go from the 7 green, which would be a perfect finishing hole for the front, and then go to 8, the best hole on the property and then reverse to the 9 hole which runs roughly parallel to 9.  I haven't looked at the routing of the original 9, but it seemed like the course was designed for 7 to be the final hole and the back and forth conclusion after 7 was sort of mundane, despite the fact that 8 is a world class hole.

[Tony_Chapman]

I was only referring to how you go from the 7 green, which would be a perfect finishing hole for the front, and then go to 8, the best hole on the property and then reverse to the 9 hole which runs roughly parallel to 9.  I haven't looked at the routing of the original 9, but it seemed like the course was designed for 7 to be the final hole and the back and forth conclusion after 7 was sort of mundane, despite the fact that 8 is a world class hole.

Terry -- The current hole #7 was the original 4th hole. The original routing was 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 17 (with a cool, cape like tee shot from basically the current 11th gree), 18. Hope that helps.

[George Pazin]

There was a lot of fantastic discussion of Prairie Dunes awhile back, maybe 7-9 years ago. I did a quick search and found some threads, if anyone's interested, here they are:

Prairie Dunes and Crystal Downs, together the best

Sand Hills and Prairie Dunes

Prairie Dunes, Crystal Downs, and Sand Hills

Prairie Dunes

Why is Shinnecock 'better' than Prairie Dunes?

The best threads were one by Ran after his first trip (I think) there and one about a trip by Brad Miller, Mike Cirba and a couple others, but I haven't found those yet.

[Terry Lavin]

I was only referring to how you go from the 7 green, which would be a perfect finishing hole for the front, and then go to 8, the best hole on the property and then reverse to the 9 hole which runs roughly parallel to 9.  I haven't looked at the routing of the original 9, but it seemed like the course was designed for 7 to be the final hole and the back and forth conclusion after 7 was sort of mundane, despite the fact that 8 is a world class hole.

Terry -- The current hole #7 was the original 4th hole. The original routing was 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 17 (with a cool, cape like tee shot from basically the current 11th gree), 18. Hope that helps.

Thanks, Tony.  I knew that most of the holes were on what is now the front.  As for 17, that is one of my favorite holes on the planet.  Just love that greensite.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

I haven't been to PD in a couple years (and thanks to American Airlines, my much anticipated return a couple weeks ago has been delayed).  I've played it in some severe winds, and have only been unable to find my ball only a handful of times, so i do think it's sufficently wide that the the gunch isn't fully in play.  Like it's been said, stray a little you're ok... stray a lot and you're in trouble.

The Perry Maxwell holes like 8, 17, 2, 3 have all been discussed here and have received their due.  My favorite Press hole is #16...  gentle dogleg right to slightly uphill, almost skyline-like green. 

[Brad Isaacs]

George,
I am not convinced Shiny is better, but NGL is and so is Fishers'.  My choices.........I am still not sold on 17 and 18 or 4 and 5.

I think 15 is best of par threes followed closely by 2.

[Adam Clayman]

Brad, Your comment about the par 3's is interesting. Perhaps you could elaborate on why you feel 15 is the best? #10 is one of the best I think I have played. But, as someone once said. It's all opinion.

I feel 10 is a great hole because of the elevation change, the semi-blind nature, and the aesthetics. 15, to me is semi-strange because of the goal posts. I prefer the aesthetic of the tenth, since they both have the elevation change, but it's the native carry on 10 that get's my "nature" juices flowing.

The second might be C&C's favorite, since they appear to have borrowed that look on a couple of other par 3's they have built, that I have seen. I too think ##2 is a great par 3.

[Terry Lavin]

I like all of the par-3 holes as well, although they suffer from the somewhat nebulous infirmity that they look similar and play around the same distance, if I recall correctly.  I'm not sure about the "Chute" hole, but I think 2, 4 and 10 all played with a six-iron for me.  The greens are all different, and the elevations are a little different, and the bunkering is different, but they all look fairly similar.  This is the complaint that people hit Medinah #3 with all the time, since three of the par-3's are over the same body of water and protected with the same bulkhead look.  Each of those three holes is more than solid, however, and they're all three different clubs, that's for sure.

[David Kelly]

The predominant wind is straight down #7 and so for the par 3s on days like that, #2 (161 yds with wind hurting a little), #4 (168yds with wind helping a little)  & #10 (185yds, downwind) but will probably play at similar distances although #10 probably plays the shortest of all.  #15 is at 200 yds from the back so it will play a club or two more.

When the wind shifts, however, #2 plays a little shorter and #4 a little longer but #10 can be in the teeth of the 2, 3, or 4 club wind as can #15. 

[Terry Lavin]

To those who play PD regularly:

Is there any sense that a tree clearing could occur at the course?  Am I alone in thinking that it would be a good thing, independent of the gunsch issues?

[David Kelly]

To those who play PD regularly:

Is there any sense that a tree clearing could occur at the course?  Am I alone in thinking that it would be a good thing, independent of the gunsch issues?

Which trees? Like I said before the only ones that come into play are on #12 where I would support the clearing out of the left side.  For some reason a lot of people like the trees on #12 so it would be hard to get them to cut some of them down as they are very big.

A few years ago some trees were lost in an ice storm, most prominently the one overlooking the first tee and the two goalpost trees on one of the tee boxes on #9.

[Sean Leary]

I like all of the par-3 holes as well, although they suffer from the somewhat nebulous infirmity that they look similar and play around the same distance, if I recall correctly.  I'm not sure about the "Chute" hole, but I think 2, 4 and 10 all played with a six-iron for me.  The greens are all different, and the elevations are a little different, and the bunkering is different, but they all look fairly similar.  This is the complaint that people hit Medinah #3 with all the time, since three of the par-3's are over the same body of water and protected with the same bulkhead look.  Each of those three holes is more than solid, however, and they're all three different clubs, that's for sure.

Depending on hole locations, which tees you play, where they have them set up plus the wind, it is entirely possible that you could hit the same club on all 4 par's. Even though the yardages are a bit different on the scorecard.

From the back tees with a normal, I generally hit one more club on 4 than 2. 10 is usually the same as 4, club wise for me. 15 is usually 2 more than 4.I don't like when the tee on 15 is way back because then the trees are in play.

My order of preference is 2, 10, 4, then 15.

10 took me a while to really appreciate, as Maxwell had stated that it was the best par 3 he ever built, and I thought that odd after playing it a few times, as 2 seemed clearly superior. However the green on 10 is just a masterpiece that I didn't truly see until I had played it a bunch with all sorts of hole locations....

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