News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2011, 10:02:08 AM »
Tom Doak's work at Noeth Shore is superb!  Though 17 was a "bold" green, it was redundant. Because of its placement next to the beyond awesome double plateau 14th green.  The only thing I hope is that Tom comes over to Engineers and finally discovers its incredible architectural brilliance!

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2011, 10:14:17 AM »
That is the rational given for every redesign of a significant old course. Ken Killian, Rees Jones, Tom Fazio, Ted Robinson, Martin Hawtree, etc have all said the same thing. If the design is unique, it should be preserved and protected IMO. North Shore was a unique design, due to the impact of CBM, Raynor and White. It had some of the boldest greens those gents ever created and it featured free form bunkering, which was unusual for CBM & Raynor.

Tom:

All but one of the bold greens (the former 17th) are preserved, and a couple that had been plowed over in the fifties or sixties are restored as best we could guess.

North Shore is not unique because you managed to create some controversy over who is most responsible for the design.  You do that all the time!  ;)   I never saw it on a list of courses that anyone thought worth preserving ... and if it had been on such a list, it would be bankrupt now and in the midst of rezoning for a development.


TD
I'm not aware of any list of preservation worthy courses. What does the club's past financial situation have to do with its situation today...are you saying you must redesign it to insure its financial viablity?

How much effort have you put into discovering the architectural history of the course and how it was perceived back in the 10s, 20s and 30s? How it has changed over the years?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 10:19:46 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2011, 10:18:36 AM »

This is total crap. In 30 years MacWood will be posting news articles about Doak courses, calling into question who gets design credit, perhaps he'll want Pac Dunes changed to a Doak/Urbina course. I can see it now "so and so helped lay out Stone Eagle..." Etc. etc.

The fact is the HEAD guy gets the credit, including credit for putting together his team. Period.


Bill
Speaking of heads...have you suffered a recent head injury because your post has nothing to do with what we are discussing...redesign over preservation/restoration.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 10:20:23 AM by Tom MacWood »

michael damico

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2011, 10:33:17 AM »
TD
I'm not aware of any list of preservation worthy courses. What does the club's past financial situation have to do with its situation today...are you saying you must redesign it to insure its financial viablity?

How much effort have you put into discovering the architectural history of the course and how it was perceived back in the 10s, 20s and 30s? How it has changed over the years?

Tom Mac

to the 'lay person' on Long Island, wouldn't you say that Doak's name along side of Raynor (of which most probably don't know, even if they are members of NGLA) is a more viable business move than promoting the restoration of a Raynor course in the 10 mile radius of other Raynor courses? Is this not a way to draw in new members? Which is precisely the mentality of a course which was on the brink of becoming another suburban development?
"without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
                                                                -fz

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2011, 10:50:09 AM »
No joke...I know people that don't make $17K a year.

The average salary in Ethiopia is 90 dollars per year.

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2011, 11:00:40 AM »
That is the rational given for every redesign of a significant old course. Ken Killian, Rees Jones, Tom Fazio, Ted Robinson, Martin Hawtree, etc have all said the same thing. If the design is unique, it should be preserved and protected IMO. North Shore was a unique design, due to the impact of CBM, Raynor and White. It had some of the boldest greens those gents ever created and it featured free form bunkering, which was unusual for CBM & Raynor.

Tom:

All but one of the bold greens (the former 17th) are preserved, and a couple that had been plowed over in the fifties or sixties are restored as best we could guess.

North Shore is not unique because you managed to create some controversy over who is most responsible for the design.  You do that all the time!  ;)   I never saw it on a list of courses that anyone thought worth preserving ... and if it had been on such a list, it would be bankrupt now and in the midst of rezoning for a development.


TD
I'm not aware of any list of preservation worthy courses. What does the club's past financial situation have to do with its situation today...are you saying you must redesign it to insure its financial viablity?

How much effort have you put into discovering the architectural history of the course and how it was perceived back in the 10s, 20s and 30s? How it has changed over the years?

Tom Macwood,

  Your question is dumb.  Why the hell does he have to explain himself to you?  You may not want to believe this, but a golf course, using this example, is not a museum piece-it is part of a golf club, which is typically a business entity and must be run as such.  Regardless of architectural lineage.  
As such, the principals, the owners of the property and/or club, have the final say to do what they want to with their course, not a group of non-members on some discussion board.    

  It doesn't mean a damn what the course was perceived as in the 10s, 20s, and 30s.  Last time I checked, this was 2011, and last time I checked, you aren't or weren't a principal of the course.  
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2011, 11:06:58 AM »
No joke...I know people that don't make $17K a year.

The average salary in Ethiopia is 90 dollars per year.

And, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2011, 11:07:58 AM »
Wasn't that list from 1939 the list Tom was referring to?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2011, 11:18:57 AM »
Mr. Zucker has every right to renovate, reinvigorate, restore or what ever he chooses to do at NS. The concept of a "sympathetic restoration" as Tom Doak described in a previous thread is the best that can be done under the circumstances here. No doubt that NS is a sociologically important and historic club given its birth as the country club for Harmonie Club members and its golf architecture provenance. However, NS was about to be NLE until Mr. Zucker bought the club. He has to decided to open the membership as well given the decline of the "historically Jewish club." See Brad Klein's article on nearby Inwood
http://www.golfweek.com/news/2009/jun/22/demise-jewish-club/?print

In order to do so and compete with other nearby prominent clubs, the course needed an upgrade,more members and some publicity with Tom Doak's involvement. This has been done with success.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 11:39:00 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Chris Munoz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2011, 11:21:10 AM »
Credit should go to the golf course const. contractor, Frontier Golf Inc., out of Pitt, PA.  One fo the best in the business in renovation work.  Congrats to Nick and Doug for a job well done.  They have also did the work at the Olympic Club in San Fran. CA.  

Tom are all 18 holes open for play, also what did they grass the greens with.  Poa Bent mix or bent.

Tom, after doing the work at North Shore, do you see yourself doing more renovation owrk on Long Island???

Christian C. Munoz
Assistant Superintendent Corales
PUNTACANA Resort & Club
www.puntacana.com

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2011, 12:13:10 PM »
No joke...I know people that don't make $17K a year.

The average salary in Ethiopia is 90 dollars per year.

And, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
they've obviously priced themselves out of the ethiopian market for members.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2011, 02:39:19 PM »
Wasn't that list from 1939 the list Tom was referring to?

I don't think so, if he was referring to that list, that was not what it was designed to do. There were about ten courses on that list that are NLE.

I will say North Shore was given serious consideration for that list. In 1926 Bill Reekie rated NS as the eighth best course in the country. It was chosen to host the 1917 Metropolitan Open less than year after it opened (postponed to 1919 due to the War) and co-hosted the 1920 US Am. It would have been a very short list of the best courses around NYC, and probably White's greatest accomplishment. 

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2011, 02:50:07 PM »

Tom Macwood,

  Your question is dumb.  Why the hell does he have to explain himself to you?  You may not want to believe this, but a golf course, using this example, is not a museum piece-it is part of a golf club, which is typically a business entity and must be run as such.  Regardless of architectural lineage.  
As such, the principals, the owners of the property and/or club, have the final say to do what they want to with their course, not a group of non-members on some discussion board.    

  It doesn't mean a damn what the course was perceived as in the 10s, 20s, and 30s.  Last time I checked, this was 2011, and last time I checked, you aren't or weren't a principal of the course.  

Why is it a dumb question? You're right he doesn't have to explain himself to me. He doesn't have to participate in a discussion group either, especially if he doesn't want to discuss that project or any other project. But since he has chosen to participate and promote his work, among other things, IMO its a good and fair question.

Tom Doak has been one of the most active restoration architects in America over the past decade, and one of the more outspoken persons on the subject. Perhaps you should have explained to him that GCGC, SFGC, Camargo, Yeamans Hall and Ekwanok were not museum pieces before he attempted to restore them. It seems clear to me you have little interest in golf architecture or the history of golf architecture, and no interest in preserving and protecting the best examples of the art, so in the future you might want to stay away from the subject.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 02:52:33 PM by Tom MacWood »

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2011, 03:19:40 PM »
Doug,

Before you repond to Tom MacWood, remember that this is how a few 30 page threads got started... so I am bowing out of this one.

I am just thrilled that a great Raynor course was re-discovered, saved from being NLE, and now renovated by Tom Doak. That is all really fantastic news.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2011, 10:09:44 PM »
Joe...not so much..."rational" makes it completely agrammatical. There is no way to read the sentence as "Doak is rational for redesigning the course is Bull Sh1t in my opinion" as having pertinence or value. Add the "e" and away we go, to the land of make believe!  :)

Ron M.

Doak's rational for redesigning the course is BS IMO.

Tom, 'rational' or 'rationale'?

One little letter changes this sentence!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2011, 10:28:54 PM »
Doug,

Before you repond to Tom MacWood, remember that this is how a few 30 page threads got started... so I am bowing out of this one.

I am just thrilled that a great Raynor course was re-discovered, saved from being NLE, and now renovated by Tom Doak. That is all really fantastic news.

Bill try to stay focused. This thread is about redesign vs preservation/restoration. If you want to discuss the design attribution of this Raynor/CBM/White course may I suggest you weigh in on this 27 pager.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42325.0.html

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2011, 10:44:02 PM »
That is the rational given for every redesign of a significant old course. Ken Killian, Rees Jones, Tom Fazio, Ted Robinson, Martin Hawtree, etc have all said the same thing. If the design is unique, it should be preserved and protected IMO. North Shore was a unique design, due to the impact of CBM, Raynor and White. It had some of the boldest greens those gents ever created and it featured free form bunkering, which was unusual for CBM & Raynor.

Tom:

All but one of the bold greens (the former 17th) are preserved, and a couple that had been plowed over in the fifties or sixties are restored as best we could guess.

North Shore is not unique because you managed to create some controversy over who is most responsible for the design.  You do that all the time!  ;)   I never saw it on a list of courses that anyone thought worth preserving ... and if it had been on such a list, it would be bankrupt now and in the midst of rezoning for a development.


TD
I'm not aware of any list of preservation worthy courses. What does the club's past financial situation have to do with its situation today...are you saying you must redesign it to insure its financial viablity?

How much effort have you put into discovering the architectural history of the course and how it was perceived back in the 10s, 20s and 30s? How it has changed over the years?


Tom:

I have indeed been responsible for restoring (or trying to restore) several prominent courses, and I believe there is a time and place for that.  I was also responsible for redesigning Atlantic City CC, which some people thought should be preserved, even though it had evolved significantly over the years -- and I have taken some lumps for that, even though I think more people believe it is a better course now than it was before.  

I do try to analyze each course we work on and determine the correct path, and I would not have signed up for this job if I didn't believe that changing the course was the right thing to do; nor would I expect any such opinion to be unanimous.  So far, you're the second person to tell me I was wrong to change it ... the other was a lady member named Esther who loves the course and plays every afternoon, and I gave her input more thought than I've given yours, because she loved it for what it is, not what it once may have meant.

I have said several times on Golf Club Atlas that I believe there SHOULD BE a list of preservation worthy golf courses, and that it should include a handful of the most significant courses for the most significant architects.  Such a list would never be "enforceable", but it would put pressure on these significant courses to preserve what they have, and at least a part of the membership would likely buy into the designation and make it harder for those clubs to change gears at a moment's notice.  It would also call the bluff of historians like yourself, and make you list in advance which courses belong on that list or not, instead of reacting after the fact to every change to any designer's work.  [I've even asked a few noted historians who are knowledgable on one particular architect which courses they would nominate -- and their choices have sometimes been surprising to me.]  But, I doubt the Seth Raynor Society would have had North Shore on their list.  Hell, they didn't even know it WAS a Raynor course.

Mr. Zucker believed strongly that the course had to be changed a bit to ensure its financial viability.  I don't think that was so much about architecture -- he does not profess to be an expert on architecture -- but about business.  North Shore was a bankrupt Jewish club without much prominence or reputation, which had a reputation for being short and something of an old man's course, in an area chock full of courses with pedigree and reputation.  It was the Titanic ... and people weren't going to jump on board the Titanic just because it had a new captain.  Without a new hull, it was going to sink.

I did not put much effort at all into researching how North Shore was perceived in the 1910's, 20's or 30's, because your dead grandfather was not going to buy a membership there this year.  We looked at every old photo the club's management could find.  The earliest hole-by-hole accounts of the course were significantly different and pretty much impossible to decipher without a routing, which they could not locate ... but back then the course was barely 6,000 yards.

I'm aware that the course hosted some early tournaments, but Common Ground is co-hosting the U.S. Amateur next summer, and I would not put that course on the short list of which works of my own should be preserved.

P.S. to others ... I don't need the help, thanks.  I'm okay with Tom asking these questions.  And I don't intend to participate further if this devolves into one of those worthless twenty-page argufests.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2011, 11:19:41 PM »
I will say North Shore was given serious consideration for that list. In 1926 Bill Reekie rated NS as the eighth best course in the country. It was chosen to host the 1917 Metropolitan Open less than year after it opened (postponed to 1919 due to the War) and co-hosted the 1920 US Am. It would have been a very short list of the best courses around NYC, and probably White's greatest accomplishment. 
Tom,
Sometimes you have to be practical.  No matter what the club's reputation was in the first part of the 20th century it is obvious that in the ensuing years it no longer retained that reputation. 

So the next question is whether a true restoration would regain for the club the reputation it had in the 1910's and 1920's and/or make it a better course for today's players?  There is a ton of evidence to show that it wouldn't do either so what would be the purpose of restoring the course for a club that was on shakey ground to begin with?  To hasten its path to NLE status?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2011, 07:03:23 AM »

I did not put much effort at all into researching how North Shore was perceived in the 1910's, 20's or 30's, because your dead grandfather was not going to buy a membership there this year.  We looked at every old photo the club's management could find.  The earliest hole-by-hole accounts of the course were significantly different and pretty much impossible to decipher without a routing, which they could not locate ... but back then the course was barely 6,000 yards.


Your dead grandfather? I would have thought you would have put a little more effort into discovering what you are about to be altering. Were you able to secure an old aerial?

When engaged to work on an old course are you able to exert influence upon your client, in other words could you advise the client, or try to convince a client, that restoration/preservation would be the best in the long run from golfing and economic standpoint?

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2011, 08:03:35 AM »
Now that's just bullshit! Tom Mac.

BTW, the reference to your list was my only dig at you for mis-leading me about the hoax. I never used your list in print, but I did use it to try and teach others about gca.

Tom D. You said you don't need help, but that logic, Tom MW is putting forth, in the above post, is just so wrong.

It's pie in the sky idealism being thrusted into a real world modern day problem. The fact that they didn't know it was Raynor and thought it  Tillie is proof enough that they (Membership, owners, etc.) didn't care about it's lineage, or know enough about gca to be able to see the little bit of evidence that was on the ground. Especially in area of the country where there is plenty of evidence at other surrounding Raynor/Banks/CBM clubs.

TOM MW is only right in a vacuum, where money isn't an an issue and you could treat tNS like a Museum piece. In which case nobody would get to play her again. Who's going to spend 12m on a plan like that? Surely not Tom MacWood.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2011, 08:11:23 AM »

When engaged to work on an old course are you able to exert influence upon your client, in other words could you advise the client, or try to convince a client, that restoration/preservation would be the best in the long run from golfing and economic standpoint?


That depends on the client, of course.

My history with the course may provide a bit of background.  We were approached by the green chairman at North Shore many years ago, and spent a day there interviewing for the job of consultant.  We didn't take the job then.  I thought the course was something of a mess, and the committee was entirely splintered as to their opinions of the course and what ought to be done.  I thought they would probably just argue a lot and never do much with it.

They hired another architect -- I think Ron Forse worked there for a while, and George Bahto as well.  Everything they did was under the guise of restoration, though it was a small, incremental project; they certainly didn't spend $2.5 million on it.  Maybe those guys did not do research to your satisfaction, either [though, as an aside, it's funny to think that anybody still thought it was a Tillinghast course with George B. working there].  My take was that they were trying reasonably well to restore the course, though the shaping work was not quite up to the design ideas.

So, in essence, they had already tried to restore the course, and what was the result?  The club was bankrupt.  The restoration efforts didn't cause the bankruptcy; from what I've heard, poor financial management of the food & beverage was dragging them down, and losing a bunch of members to the Bernie Madoff ponzi was the knife in the back.  But their restoration efforts also did not attract new members at all.

When Mr. Zucker called, I was reluctant to look at the project because I remembered the course and thought it had limited potential.  But he's also one of the nicest people you would ever want to meet, and he said he would give me a free hand to do whatever I thought was best -- which was a lot different situation from working for the club's green committee!  I had only one person to please, and he is not a member of Golf Club Atlas.  At the same time, I had the responsibility to make sure Mr. Zucker was not wasting the money he spent to save the course or to work on it, which is something most people here never have to think about.  That's not got much to do with old aerial photographs ... that's about delivering a course that is appealing for people who might buy a new membership.  I just don't think a restoration would have cut it.  You are welcome to disagree with that if you want, but I don't think there is any more point in my discussing it with you.

P.S.  An interesting parallel:  just three or four years before this I looked at the job at Engineers, just down the road.  Now, THAT was a course that I thought deserved a true restoration.  It's unique, and though I have not seen much of Herbert Strong's work, I have to believe it is one of his two or three best works.  But their committee wanted to soften the greens for modern play.  I was tempted to take the job and try to convince them otherwise, but after talking with the green chairman, decided he was not going to be convinced.  So, they hired another architect and softened some of the greens ... and now they are pretty close to bankrupt, too.  Is there a moral to this story?  Maybe it's just a bad time to be running an older golf club in New York!  As for me, I follow my conscience wherever it takes me; but it pains me to think that some smart people believe these questions should always deliver the same verdict.

P.P.S.  One more note.  I think it is much harder to seriously consider restoring a 1915 course than a 1925 course.  Most 1915 courses were just barely 6,000 yards from the back tees, and probably like North Shore in that they have already been lengthened to the extent the property allows.  No architect in 1915 was writing about the need to provide "elasticity" to get the course up to 6600 or 7000 yards someday.  And, while I would love to build a 6000 yard course on my own someday to prove it can provide everything most golfers want, it would be a very risky business move, and I'm 0-for-30 on finding a client who would let me try.  I really can't see how trying to restore a golf course to that length would work out any better.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2011, 08:49:02 AM »
Now that's just bullshit! Tom Mac.

BTW, the reference to your list was my only dig at you for mis-leading me about the hoax. I never used your list in print, but I did use it to try and teach others about gca.

Tom D. You said you don't need help, but that logic, Tom MW is putting forth, in the above post, is just so wrong.

It's pie in the sky idealism being thrusted into a real world modern day problem. The fact that they didn't know it was Raynor and thought it  Tillie is proof enough that they (Membership, owners, etc.) didn't care about it's lineage, or know enough about gca to be able to see the little bit of evidence that was on the ground. Especially in area of the country where there is plenty of evidence at other surrounding Raynor/Banks/CBM clubs.

TOM MW is only right in a vacuum, where money isn't an an issue and you could treat tNS like a Museum piece. In which case nobody would get to play her again. Who's going to spend 12m on a plan like that? Surely not Tom MacWood.

Wow, I'm not sure what exactly I wrote that touched a nerve, but your reaction (over-reaction) IMO is bizarre. My question was a generaic one, and a fair one considering his past record. Why so defensive?

Over the years TD has never hidden his admiration for historic architecture and the great architects of the past. He wrote the history of Alister MacKenzie. He has probably restored more high profile historic golf courses than any architect today. Off the top of my head: Pasatiempo, Ekwanok, Valley, Camargo, Yeamans Hall, Garden City, and SFGC. With that kind of track record and that kind of experience I would think a client would listen to you if you told him it would be in your best interest from golfing and/or financial standpoint to restore a golf course.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 08:51:52 AM by Tom MacWood »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2011, 09:01:35 AM »
Tom, Tom answered succinctly about his modus operandi as it relates to NS. Your continuing to question that response, is what I was reacting to. He even said he wouldn't participate if this starts to turn into t 20 page arguefest. You using question marks does not insulate you from trying to be argumentative, IMO.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2011, 10:23:37 AM »
The only person being arguementative is you. I have no interest in arguing with you, TD or anyone else, and I have no interest in turning this into marathon thread. I asked TD a generic question regarding what influence he may or may not have on client, and if he is incline to use it. And relating to those questions I would think a minimal amount of historical due diligence would be a requirement.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore piece by Brad Klein
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2011, 10:29:28 PM »
Well, this is is going to sound like I am another Daok ass kisser, and I waited a few days before posting it because of that...but this is what I have been thinking about since I read Brad's article. Most here will agree that Tom is one of the best architects working today, right? And with so few prospects for brand new courses in the US, especially in the New York metro area where there is little land left, a renovation is about all one can hope for if you are a fan of his work. If we fast forward 20 or 30 years when Doak is done building courses, it seems obvious that he will have a solid place among all past architects and it will be a very good thing that an example of his work will be just outside of NYC, even if he had to steal one of Raynors sites. :)  I am a huge fan of Raynor but I have to acknowledge that there are many fine Raynor courses in the NY-NJ area, so I guess we can make room for a Doak.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 11:10:34 PM by Bill Brightly »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back