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Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Play without delay/post your score
« on: May 02, 2011, 07:43:46 PM »
Finally re-upped my USGA membership to get today the usual package, including the bag tag.  On one side of the tag the following material is printed:

Plan your shot while walking to your ball or while others are playing.

Walk briskly between shots.  If riding, take several clubs with you to your ball so that you won't have to walk back to the cart.

Play a provisional ball if you think the original might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds.

Post 9-hole (at least 7 holes played) and 18-hole rounds (at least 13 holes played). Use par plus your allotted handicap strokes for holes not played.

Players should carefully repair divots as well as any damage made to greens.




Good move by the USGA?

I very much think so!  Even if only a few read the tag and "obey".
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2011, 07:52:10 PM »
The left off the one where people claim they don't have to post, because they play match play.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2011, 08:02:49 PM »
I think they missed the one that says post only rounds played IAW the Rules of Golf, as well. Want to see the average handicap in America jump 4-5 strokes in a month, have everyone play strictly by the rules.

Match play is an interesting situation, I've been conceded 225 yard shots for 2 on a par 5 before because my opponent snap hooked 2 balls out of bounds...

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2011, 08:27:15 PM »
I think they missed the one that says post only rounds played IAW the Rules of Golf, as well. Want to see the average handicap in America jump 4-5 strokes in a month, have everyone play strictly by the rules.

Match play is an interesting situation, I've been conceded 225 yard shots for 2 on a par 5 before because my opponent snap hooked 2 balls out of bounds...

I'm not sure what that means. Certainly not that you took a 2 on your card! That would highly contradict the handicap rules.
If you have only hit one normal shot before the concession, you would just write down what your handicap predicts for a score on the hole.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Malcolm Mckinnon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2011, 09:19:41 PM »
An additional tip...

After a poor shot please refrain from "whirly-birding" your club down the fairway in an abject rage.



« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 09:21:48 PM by Malcolm Mckinnon »

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2011, 02:46:21 AM »
I think they missed the one that says post only rounds played IAW the Rules of Golf, as well. Want to see the average handicap in America jump 4-5 strokes in a month, have everyone play strictly by the rules.

Match play is an interesting situation, I've been conceded 225 yard shots for 2 on a par 5 before because my opponent snap hooked 2 balls out of bounds...

I'm not sure what that means. Certainly not that you took a 2 on your card! That would highly contradict the handicap rules.
If you have only hit one normal shot before the concession, you would just write down what your handicap predicts for a score on the hole.

Why didn't I take 2? My opponent said my shot for two was good and we went on to the next tee. Handicap rules get really weird for people with sub-scratch handicaps. I think I was playing off a +4 at the time, so technically I should "give back" shots on the 15-18 handicap holes with all others being par. This hole was not one of those holes and they way I was playing at the time, the odds of me making 5 with a 4 iron in my hand on that hole were about at likely as that shot for two going in the hole. 99% of the time from where I was then, I make 3 or 4, 5 was not even a consideration. The convoluted idea put forth by the USGA that you can essentially estimate a score on a hole when you don't play it or hole out IAW the rules is crazy. If the ball does not come to rest in the bottom of the cup 18 times, the score does not count, simple as that as far as I am concerned. Which leads to another little topic of discussion, one which I have discussed at length with a friend of mine who is no longer around: Equitable Stroke Control. A detailed explanation is not necessary, just watch the footage of Kevin Na holing out for a 16 in Texas. According the the genius of ESC, he should take a 6 on that hole, guess what folks, he didn't make 6, he made 16; he shot 80, not 70. Hole out on every hole, play every shot IAW the rules and that's it. Post what you shoot, no nonsense.

Mr Bausch sorry to steal your thread; although what I am saying goes with one of their bullet points on the bag tag.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2011, 02:56:04 AM »
Jamie, I believe you are to take the score you most likely would've made.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2011, 03:34:01 AM »
Jamie, I believe you are to take the score you most likely would've made.

Mr. Clayman I am aware that is what the Handicap Manual says, Section 4-1 Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes. There is also Section 4-2 Holes not Played or Not Played under the Rules of Golf, I will deal with that one in a minute.

First off, what supersedes what, The Rules of Golf or the Handicap Manual? Well, my amateur's reading of the Rules of Golf notes that Rule 1-1 says "The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules." Note the last 5 words.

We then move to deal with Section 4-1 by looking at Rule 2-4 "A player may concede his opponent's next stroke at any time, provided the opponent's ball is at rest. The opponent is considered to have holed out with his next stroke, and the ball may be removed by either Side." Emphasis mine. So, THE RULES OF GOLF state that you holed out, in my case, IAW the rules of golf, I holed out for 2, because my opponent conceded stroke (he mostly conceded the hole, but in doing so, he conceded that my second shot was good). Now, according to the Handicap Manual, I have to run percentages through my head to figure out what I would have likely made on that hole. Now that's just fancy. Either way, you tell me which to follow, the Rules or the Handicap Manual. Reading Rule 1-1 makes it an easy decision for me.

Now, on to Section 4-2. This again uses most likely score, but brings handicap into the picture. Par plus handicap shots is applicable. There are two parts to this rule, one is holes not played, one is holes not played IAW the rules. Now, for the first part, assuming you are not playing match play, in which case the only way to not play a hole is for your opponent to concede you a 1 on the tee, you are playing stroke play. Well, Rule 3-2 says "If a competitor fails to hole out at any hole and does not correct his mistake before he makes a stroke on the next teeing ground or, in the case of the last hole of the round, before he leaves the putting green, he is disqualified." So, simply put, any round in which the player does not hole out, other than in match play, is an invalid round, therefore ineligible for handicapping, or so says the rules. To the second point, holes not played IAW the rules, well, for that we must look at Rule 1-3 Agreement to Waive Rules "Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred." Penalty=DQ.

So, if following the Rules of Golf, if you fail to hole out or fail to follow a rule intentionally (or unintentionally and fail to correct it prior to completing your round or teeing off on the next hole depending on the situation) you are disqualified from your round and it becomes invalid.

Once again, which book reigns supreme, The Rules of Golf or The Handicap Manual? Like I say, play every shot of every round in strict accordance with the Rules of Golf and none of this handicapping manual nonsense is needed, and by the way, I still say the average handicap would go up at least 5 shots if everyone played every round IAW the rules.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2011, 03:46:27 AM »
JVG

Very well said, but I am afraid you are on a hard climb in convincing the pro USGAers that the handicap system is crap.  To add to the problem, the entire purpose of a handicap system is to allow players of unequal ability to have a competitive match.  How many golfers in the US actually have handicaps?  I am guessing far less than 50% and seem to recall reading somewhere that it was less than 30%.  So it would seem that for most people, they are quite capable of determining stroke allowance without a bloated system which has failed miserably to actually handicap even half of the golfers. That is of course assuming that anything like most golfers engage in matches.  Of course proper players don't worry about caps because they play flat.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2011, 04:09:53 AM »
Mr Arble you are indeed correct, it is a hopeless fight. However, allow me to put it even more simply: how good can the USGA Handicap system be when it quite literally describes IN DETAIL two times how to break the rules of golf yet still post a score? By the way, the two times are how to post when not holing out or not playing IAW the rules (self explanatory breach there) and also to post a score lower than that actually shot, meaning the Handicap Manual explicitly tells the player he is allowed to break Rule 6-6d when he turns in his scorecard.

Again, how good can a system be when it has to tell players to break/bend/wiggle around the Rules of Golf? Bet all the handicap system proponents never thought of it that way.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2011, 06:59:52 AM »
Jamie,

I'm not sure where the beef is in all this?  There's a gross score for stroke play and an adjusted score for handicap purposes.  There's match play and match play scores you turn in for handicap purposes.  No the system's not perfect, but I don't see the big contradiction of the rules...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2011, 07:27:18 AM »
Jud,

There isn't any contradiction of the rules of golf when posting match play scores. The rules of match play allow for concessions and the handicapping system we use provides the framework for posting those scores.

edit: JVG is making the mistake of mixing his rules. The provisions for posting that allow estimation of a score if the ball hasn't been holed out are only applicable to match play.   

Joe,

It's a good idea.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 08:03:24 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2011, 09:01:32 AM »
IMO the reason  handicaps came into being was for betting purposes.  ;D


http://www.popeofslope.com/history/
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 09:03:11 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Brent Hutto

Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2011, 09:18:42 AM »
If the handicap system only covered rounds played under the Rules of Golf, less than 5% of USA golfers would have handicaps.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2011, 10:26:10 AM »
JVG

Very well said, but I am afraid you are on a hard climb in convincing the pro USGAers that the handicap system is crap.  To add to the problem, the entire purpose of a handicap system is to allow players of unequal ability to have a competitive match.  How many golfers in the US actually have handicaps?  I am guessing far less than 50% and seem to recall reading somewhere that it was less than 30%.  So it would seem that for most people, they are quite capable of determining stroke allowance without a bloated system which has failed miserably to actually handicap even half of the golfers. That is of course assuming that anything like most golfers engage in matches.  Of course proper players don't worry about caps because they play flat.  

Ciao

Sure the handicap system isn't perfect, but certainly a lot of research and thought has gone into it.

basically there are two types of misuses of handicaps-

ego handicap-players who cheat themselves(and their eventual partners), but love to say they're (whatever) handicap
Those who only post their good scores ,those  who never putt out, drop balls with a proper adherence to rules (how hard is it to hit a provisional), and those that simply cheat and can't do so when policed.

sandbaggers
 cheat the system by not posting good scores, not trying when out of a hole, posting false scores.

Interestingly, it seems 7 is the handicap most cheaters have-both ego (they usually can't break 90 but a 7 sounds so good)
and sandbaggers (who have 71 up their sleeve but feel lke 7 is not that likely to be challenged)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2011, 10:39:13 AM »
Jud,

There isn't any contradiction of the rules of golf when posting match play scores. The rules of match play allow for concessions and the handicapping system we use provides the framework for posting those scores.

edit: JVG is making the mistake of mixing his rules. The provisions for posting that allow estimation of a score if the ball hasn't been holed out are only applicable to match play.   

Joe,

It's a good idea.

Actually, Mr. Kennedy, I am not mixing up anything. The provisions for estimating work for both stroke and match play, simply read Example 1 in Section 4-1 of the Handicap Manual. It clearly states that the form of play in the example is Four-ball Stroke Play.

As far as any beef, its simply that the Handicap Manual encourages and actually requires people to play and post scores that are not played in strict keeping with the rules. That makes no sense.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2011, 10:45:18 AM »
Jamie,

As the others have pointed out, you post an "adjusted" score for handicap purposes. My adjustments usually amount to limiting the number to an 8 for handicap purposes, while your adjustments might have you recording birdies for handicap purposes. ;) They are just adjustments so that when we play you know you will have to give me 28 strokes. ;) And, I know I will go home with a big wad of cash. ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2011, 10:50:18 AM »
Jamie,

As the others have pointed out, you post an "adjusted" score for handicap purposes. My adjustments usually amount to limiting the number to an 8 for handicap purposes, while your adjustments might have you recording birdies for handicap purposes. ;) They are just adjustments so that when we play you know you will have to give me 28 strokes. ;) And, I know I will go home with a big wad of cash. ;D


If one is as likely to hole out from 225 yards as he is to use 4 strokes, he probably should be posting birdies as adjustments for handicap purposes. ;D ;D
Who knew there was Tiger replacement on the horizon all along ........
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2011, 10:56:08 AM »
Jamie,

If you'd rather that a 30 handicap posts his actual 13 on a par three and you then have to give him an extra 5 shots in your next nassau, I'm sure he'd be happy to oblige...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2011, 11:01:47 AM »
Mr. Bayley all that I ask is that you explain to me what takes precedence, The Rules of Golf or the Handicap Manual? If you say The Rules of Golf, then that invalidates all portions of the Handicap Manual which deal with ESC, holes played outside the rules, etc.

Mr. Warne I exaggerated my statement there to be sure, maybe 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10000 I hole that shot for 2. And yes, at the time, no longer sadly, I would have posted birdies for adjustment had I not played a hole, assuming it was the 15-18 handicap holes I didn't play.

Mr. Tigerman I'll give him 40 and ensure he plays strictly by the rules 100%. Actually, wait, 36, I'm not giving more than 2 strokes a hole to anyone...

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2011, 11:08:22 AM »


Mr. Tigerman I'll give him 40 and ensure he plays strictly by the rules 100%. Actually, wait, 36, I'm not giving more than 2 strokes a hole to anyone...

Then you'll go broke fairly quickly.  That's what the handicap system does, tries to make for a fair match...If you don't like it, then only play gross medal play and never wager on golf....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2011, 11:11:00 AM »
Jamie,

Aren't you confusing things?  In match play, under the rules of golf, you win, halve or lose a hole.  It does not matter, in that form of golf, what your score is.  When an opponent concedes a hole that does not mean you have scored 2 (or any other number), it means you have won the hole.  I am not familiar with the USGA handicap system but I can't see any conflict between being conceded a hole afetr only playing one shot and recording a 4, or 5 or any other number for handicap purposes only.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Brent Hutto

Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2011, 11:11:06 AM »
Jamie,

Welcome to the forum.

The issue is quite simple. The Rules of Golf govern how the game is played. No question. Lots of folks do not follow the Rules but lots of others do follow them. In any case the Rules are the Rules.

Totally separate from the Rules of Golf is a handicap system that requires numbers to be posted in order to maintain a valid handicap. That system refers to the Rules of Golf but is not part of the Rules of Golf. It is, so to speak, the Rules of the Handicap System that matters when computing a handicap.

The number you type into the handicap computer is not your score according to the Rules of Golf. Different number much of the time, same number some of the time but either way it is what it is. It is the "adjusted score" used for computing your handicap.

Your objection boils down to this. You wish the USGA Handicap System were based solely and precisely on actual scores resulting from medal play under the Rules of Golf. Your objection is noted. The USGA does not really care what system you or I would prefer to see. I have numerous issues with the system far beyond your objections but that doesn't matter either. The system is accepted by a couple million people and your system or mine is not.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2011, 11:13:31 AM »
Mr. Bayley all that I ask is that you explain to me what takes precedence, The Rules of Golf or the Handicap Manual? If you say The Rules of Golf, then that invalidates all portions of the Handicap Manual which deal with ESC, holes played outside the rules, etc.
...

I don't know about where you play your golf, but at my home course the scorecard has two separate blanks to fill in. Score and adjusted score. If you can't manage two systems, then just play everyone straight up (if they will agree) and don't worry about adjusted score.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Play without delay/post your score
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2011, 11:26:58 AM »


Mr. Tigerman I'll give him 40 and ensure he plays strictly by the rules 100%. Actually, wait, 36, I'm not giving more than 2 strokes a hole to anyone...

Then you'll go broke fairly quickly.  That's what the handicap system does, tries to make for a fair match...If you don't like it, then only play gross medal play and never wager on golf....

No I wouldn't. You make a 30 handicap play every shot of every hole strictly by the rules, you might drive his car from the lot after the round. Remember that little experiment that Golf Digest did in 1985 or so? They tried to find the worst avid golfer. I think you had to play more than twice a week on average through the course of the year. A foursome had a combined 836 shots around TPC Sawgrass, the highest in the group was a 257, including 66 on the 17th hole alone. Yep, all day every day I'll give that 30 handicap 40 shots and play strictly by the rules.

Mr. Hutto indeed it is a losing fight, not really a fight at all I suppose, simply an opinion. Millions of people follow it however because they have nothing else to follow...  Sincere thanks for the welcome.

Mr. Bayley you still did not answer my simple question, which book takes precedence The Rules of Golf or the Handicap Manual?

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