[JMEvensky]

Colin Macqueen--gazzumped?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Colin Macqueen--gazzumped?

Or one could say towels on the Loungers by the swimming pool by 7AM  now that is really being gazumped

Melvyn

[Lou_Duran]

Shivas,

Do you recall Barry from our round back in 2002- the disabled (mental) Viet Nam vet who says to me on the second hole: "Lou, you and I ain't gonna get along if you keep making me chase your divots all day long", and who despite my repeated requests for yardages to the middle of the green and location of the pin, would only give a club and tell me how hard to hit it?

If Mike Cirba is looking in, I hope he will relate his exprience with Geoff Childs while sharing a "caddie" at a venerable northern CA course.  My caddie and I had a great time watching.

For personal reasons, I prefer not taking a caddie.  I've seen very few who can carry double successfully, particularly when their golfers must consult before executing each shot.  However, if it is the custom of the club and the preference of my host, my only requirement is that he or she can carry my bag and keep up.  If the caddie can help on the greens and wipe off my ball, that's a big plus.  As Barry trained me, I am happy to chase my divots and rake my footprints in the bunkers.

[Colin Macqueen]

JM,

“Colin Macqueen--gazzumped?”   Now don’t let your imagination get the better of you....ooops Melvyn has.

OK I’m sorry. I spelt it wrong. Melvyn is correct once again. There should only be one “Z” in the word. I was using a bit of poetic licence and was referring to being “swindled” out of a round by other caddies claiming I wouldn’t be turning up to do my “looping” and the scoundrel heading off earlier than expected with my arranged man.  ‘Twas a cruel world I lived in all those years!

How come you haven’t picked up on Shivas’ spelling of “chutzpah” without a “C”.  Now a thread with “gazumped” and “chutzpah” contained within is pretty neat I think.

Laughing out loud,

Colin

[JMEvensky]

JM,

“Colin Macqueen--gazzumped?”   Now don’t let your imagination get the better of you....ooops Melvyn has.

OK I’m sorry. I spelt it wrong. Melvyn is correct once again. There should only be one “Z” in the word. I was using a bit of poetic licence and was referring to being “swindled” out of a round by other caddies claiming I wouldn’t be turning up to do my “looping” and the scoundrel heading off earlier than expected with my arranged man.  ‘Twas a cruel world I lived in all those years!

How come you haven’t picked up on Shivas’ spelling of “chutzpah” without a “C”.  Now a thread with “gazumped” and “chutzpah” contained within is pretty neat I think.

Laughing out loud,

Colin

Colin,it wasn't the spelling of gazzumped--it was the meaning.Of course,now that I know it was mis-spelled...

As to chutzpah,I've seen Yiddish transliterated a million ways.But,you're right about one thing--this may be the first thread in internet history with both gazump and chutzpah in it.

[JMEvensky]

Wen in dowt, spell funetikly. 
 

I understand when non-MOT's have trouble with the "ch" sound,but I figured you could type it.

[Kris Shreiner]

Lou,

Great story! I'll admit some caddies sure have their own style.

Shivas,

Many adult caddies I know have been superb mentors to younger caddies: when out on loops teaching them the fundamentals, but also finer points of a quality job, taking an interest in youth of single parents, giving them solid advice and encouragement to get a good education, teaching them the game on Mondays or times that they're hitting balls or shagging and chipping at the back or side of the range. Older caddies come in all flavors. Many are semi-retired guys(even a few gals) who were teachers, tradesmen, middle management business types who love being out and around the game on a flexible schedule etc. I don't think we can be to presumptuous to count out where contributions to golf come from.

Sure, there are some characters that the youngsters would do best to limit their time with, but that is where a solid caddie manager/mentor comes in to run a good program and pair up caddies accordingly. A tight ship wouldn't have many of those folks anyway. It's all about how much value and commitment is dedicated to the program.

As two a double caddie not being able to handle two players when they are split up distance wise, a quality caddie who knows how to work with his players can generally get them around in brisk fashion. Not quite as fast as single caddies could, but pretty close.
Most experienced caddies generally know within a few yards, even from a distance, how far a players ball will be from the next target. Again, it's not a track meet, with reasonible expectations, timely play shouldn't be a problem .

Most adult caddies would certainly carry a single now and again to help out the facility staff and take care of a player. It's just to enable that quality guy or gal to work a course and provide service consistently, doubles are an ecomomic reality for many.

[V. Kmetz]

Shivas,

I apologize for this late reply to your question, but I was...caddying, 106 holes, since Friday afternoon. 

Mathematically speaking, I suppose the insinuation of your question and some of the your later posts fuller exhibition, are well-taken, but I believe that your perspective on the issue is skewed by thinking the individual player is getting "screwed" to an extent by having a caddie serve two masters...

If your talking tournament golf...pro, am or even a "club championship" there are no two-bag loops...at those times, even pro-"jocks" like me don't want two bags and the players up the pay for the single work.   Then your 100% attention protests means something

If we are talking Saturday morning 5s and 10s, Friday guests, or ladies' member guests, I can (and have) handle six-somes in a timely and extraordinarily competent fashion.

At any particular club with an existing Caddie corps, the caddies are more a member of the group than in a tournament or "serious" golf situation.  They are valued for more than their knowledge of the blades of grass and breaks of the greens...they are valued for their ability to enhance that one round and give people a good day.  The best ones are almost members...

We have some terrible, awful, dim-witted Caddies at one of the clubs I work...select units of members, however, love them...they break their balls, the Caddie breaks em' back...there are Caddies who are asked for their opinion, just so the opposite can be executed and then all laugh at the results...

when four players play in teams of two, we caddies will often split up the bags so that one caddie is for Team A and the other Team B, in this way you have two troikas against one another...the twosome of players doesn't care if they have to wait for a club or rake their own trap...they will often say, "go take care of him, he gets a shot here and I'm three already."  The Caddies are more like counselor attorneys for their half than day laborers

The veteran Caddies of a Club are friends to the members of that Club more than employees or perfectly efficient robots.

I guess what I'm driving at is that things are a lot looser and more familiar at the Club level, season-in, season out. 

And a utopia of "KIDS ONLY" caddies would collapse in two seasons and there would be terrible caddie service to boot where it still existed:

1. would a club as grand as Winged Foot ever serve 320 Monday outing players over two rounds with 160 caddies?  Where would you get that many caddies and maintain standards that are expected at such a club?  As it is they have almost 75 daily and 35 more they can pull from other joints...you would need twice that many in an exclusively single bag situation

2. When would you decide that a person is no longer a kid anymore?  22?  24?  Out of college?

3.  where would the next crop of kids come from?  How would they know how to distinguish a good job fro ma bad job if they didn't see ol' Walter (with whom I went out today) reading greens in his 61st year at WF with just the point of the flag stick and didn't talk to Pro VK here out in the fairway, forecaddying, telling him why I had my players play two more clubs and why you don't let your "tending shadow" cross the line of the putt while avoiding the other players lines?

4.  You would slash the income of those "kids" by almost 2/3rds from what it is currently (if they too are not double bagging it) and that is also IF they can get out twice.  If they can't - and most clubs do not bear two rounds a day for more than a dozen Caddies - there gos the kid "saving for college" in a meaningful way.

5.  Also, eight people at a green site is cumbersome too...even moreso if they are comprised of a 15 year old, a high school senior, a college freshman and a kid fresh out of the stall.  You would be amazed how many lost balls there still can be with those eight eyes.

There are Caddies at WF, who hit the south on Halloween and don't come back until May 1st...they maybe lay low 4 weeks out of the year...these guys rake in about 65-70 grand...it is not because they insist on double bags, it is because more than one player at a time WANTS them, and their 88/100% attention.

Forget Golf, forget individual rounds of Golf...they wither and fade away...a Club Caddie, carrying one, two (I have carried three, and four stuffed into two) bags, one putter, six putters, two bags and two putters (very common at some clubs) are there to give their charges a good day, the best of us...and I proudly count myself in that number are known for it.

If you are playing a tournament of any standard, you get a jock's full attention - we live for those tournaments though our pay is usually cut by a quarter for what we could be making.  That's where the rubber hits the road and the world knows if you are doing what you do as well as it can be done.

If you are playing your weekly foursome, relax a little bit - enjoy the recreation and relaxation of being away from your worries for a time, Golf is not important though we love it so.  Wait for a club, a read...if you don't think your getting your value, just counter by asking more questions.  It can be done without being imperious or letting anyone know your nose is out of joint...a jock with two bags will know that you want to engage his expertise.

And let's remember that not every shot is a treasure; sometimes its just hacking out of the rough or making a recovery that you could do with any iron in the bag.

Lastly, and in fairness to the whole thread... as I said originally... about 1/3rd of the Club Caddies stink, about 1/3rd are merely competent. It would be so if they had one bag or one putter.  The upper third and the top 1 percent are great in any situation and this is redundantly confirmed by anecdote, witness and pay.

cheers

vk

[Sean_A]

The big issue with caddies, even good caddies, is cost.  Caddies would double the cost of my golf (including diesel!)!!!!!!.  For many, a kid or adult carrying a bag, raking sand, replacing divots and offering advice is not worth the asking the price.  For many, a caddie is not a terribly skilled job which demands $60, $70 or even a $100 per bag.  As Shivas suggests, the job is ideal for kids and thus the rates should be lower.  Instead, we are pricing caddies as an adult job and the result is the economics don't add up for many people.  And these numbers are based on single carriers.  Once one enters the realm of double bagging the cost of a caddie is insane.  Its almost as if there is some sort of subsidizing program out there to keep caddies employed.  If this job went on the open market without clubs forcing caddies on folks then the real value of the caddie would be revealed.  I just hope caddies are sympathetic when folks talk about protectionism and protecting jobs in general.  

Ciao

[V. Kmetz]

Sean,

What does that mean, the "open market?"

This is a rich man's game, Sean.  No one is asking you to play it...if you had enough money to afford initiation dues and expenses for a club, then would you still be bemoaning cost?  Would the caddie be tipping you over at that point, but not the 75K initiation and annual lay out of $15-30K in dues/dining minimums?

As I have said in many economics-grounded threads, if you cannot take the monies devoted to Golf and throw it in the fireplace, you should not be there, a private club.

cheers

vk

[Jud_T]

I always play in threesomes and pay up.  That way I'm guaranteed a single....

[Sean_A]

V

The open market is just that.  A caddie offers his services and agrees a fee with the golfer.  Club and resort rules requiring caddies artificially jack up the prices and thus thwart the concept of an open market.  That isn't to say I am in the least against clubs making caddie rules.  Its their business and doesn't bother me.  I am merely pointing out the main problem of caddies - they price themselves out of a huge segment of the golfing market.  You make the call if that is good or bad, but I rarely use caddies because they are too expensive.  I get the impression that this is true for a huge percentage of golfers.    

Your position is so skewed as to the general world of golf that I am not sure how to respond.  Don't you think its possible that a guy can (or will) swing the initiation fee and monthly dues of many a middle class club (which btw can often be far cheaper than your numbers suggest), but not be able to afford (or be willing) popping $60 or $70 for a caddie when he wants to play?  One thing is for certain, if caddies are part of the equation then golf is certainly for richer men than me.  Luckily, I live in a golf culture where money is far less of an issue than in the States.  

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

V.Kmetz:

This is a rich man's game, Sean.  No one is asking you to play it...if you had enough money to afford initiation dues and expenses for a club, then would you still be bemoaning cost?  Would the caddie be tipping you over at that point, but not the 75K initiation and annual lay out of $15-30K in dues/dining minimums?

As I have said in many economics-grounded threads, if you cannot take the monies devoted to Golf and throw it in the fireplace, you should not be there, a private club.

It might come as some surprise that in many parts of the world we play golf at private clubs for one-tenth of the costs you mention.

[Colin Macqueen]

Scott,
Absolutely! The idea of paying $100-110,000 per annum to play would certainly mean that I had no home, no car and no disposable to be paying caddy fees of $60-100 a round. I'd still be playing golf but living in a tent. I have my priorities!

VK,
Where on earth do you reside so that these fees and dues and caddy fees are in any way payable on an ongoing basis? It truly blows me away. America must be rolling in it if this is in any way indicative of the golfing milieu in America. So different from Oz it leaves me flabbergasted!

Cheers Col

[V. Kmetz]

Sean,

What main problem of Caddies are you talking about?  I cannot see how any price of Caddies is hurting you one bit...you are losing something, suffering something...just how?  

I couldn't give a hoot about the huge market I'm missing out on if only my rates were lower.

You want something, a service?...pay for it, the going rate.  

You're free to value the service as much or as little as you want, however a Club Caddie is not free to decline to offer the service...in any situation I'm aware of (here or in the UK) and I would consider my self a bona fide expert in the field.

Ay, there's the rub...the Caddie must show up at a particular market place on the chance that Sean Arble wanted to, today, play Golf. Will Sean Arble pay a "fee" to ensure there is ample work to make the endeavor worth it...what if it should rain and the course be unplayable, what if only a handful of golfers show up and there is work for only 1/3rd of the yard. what do the other 2/3rds - who already gave consideration in advance - receive?

And lemme tell you, the club with mandatory Caddie rules and rates may have jacked up the market to X player but they have also closed it for Y Caddie, because Club Caddies are also not free to go to the highest bidder...if that was the case, you would have anarchy every busy morning on the tee and I would have already been a wealthy man.  That's one of the main roles the Caddiemaster performs in a private club (again, the only situation of caddying that truly exists here in America)

If it's a private club and the mores of the club are known to you...then you knew that, why did you join?

If its a public course (there are only about a two dozen "public" in the entire USA that require the use of Caddies and they all cost a boatload to start with) then carry your own or take a cart. End of story.

And as to open market as you are clarifying it, it's clearly in play in this region....of the 275 private clubs within 50 miles of NYC, there are about 60 that pay a comparatively low wage and/or don't mandate the use of caddies except for weekends; they have the weakest and smallest Caddie unit and/or the members are carrying their own bags or using carts...fine, if they want better they'll pay more and change the rules.  When those Caddies of such a club (usually kids) go off property or I caddie at their club with them in a tournament, I know most of them are not worth a damn, and are just valued as two shoulders that facilitate a player's walking.

Meanwhile at the 40 clubs that pay the highest wages and have the most inflexible rules of caddie usage, the Caddies are spoken of the way this board speaks of classic architecture, they are a part of the paradoxical ethos of the conduct of Golf at that club.

Caddies find their way to clubs that make the most satisfactory sense to caddy amongst this broad range.

I just wish Shivas and you, amongst others, would just come out and say what your issue is.  To me, it sounds like a Caddie is just not worth that much to you, period.

that's OK, I'm a middle-faring man who doesn't need a Caddie either and sighs when I am given access to other clubs and have to pay $80 for something I didn't need and maybe was only worth 20 bucks to me at most.  A Caddie is largely an intrusion to my own Golf, I admit it. However, when I wanted to be at quaker ridge, at wf, at baltusrol, national, and the scores of first class courses my love for Golf wanted to visit. I'm following their way, not my way.  This is not because I myself am a Caddie, it's because the members of such clubs DO value the service and I am their guest.  It is not for me to further opportunize the sheer access, that they did not have to grant, to make a guy lose the $40 difference he showed up for with such an agreement in place?

But it is all summed up by what "harm" is being done to you, where is your suffering in all of this?  

Colin,

This is the Metropolitan NYC ("Met area"). Yes they are, rolling in it.  No one f'n knows this. Prior to the 08 crash, clubs such as my little one in CT was charging $125K initiation and soup to nuts if you enjoyed your club fully, you were doling out $40K annually 

Scott,

Do you have Caddies in that 1/10th expensive segment of the private world?  Please specify.

cheers

vk

[Kalen Braley]

I think there needs to be clarification in this thread.

Of those who golf in America, only a small % belong to clubs and pay "rich man" fees.

The vast majority of the balance, play 100% public/daily fee courses with much lower green fees.  Here in Spokane, and while I was living in Utah as well, I rarely had to pay more than $40 for a round of golf.  So to add another $50-$70 in caddie fees is very impractical, and few if any will pay it.

However at the private club scene where the "rich men" are, perhaps they are more willing.

[Brent Hutto]

To answer (I think) the original question, the best caddie experience I've ever had was with the two guys at Cypress Point. And my recollection is not being colored by the fact that playing there was one of my most valued golf experiences, overall. These guys were good. What made them so good?

1) Knew every inch of the course thrice over. Not a flippin' chance of losing a ball with these guys on the job. You could hit it out of sight where you'd think it was off the face of the earth and one of them would walk straight to it like they'd seen that shot a hundred times before. Probably had.

2) Did not attempt to make themselves part of game. Right there when you need them, ready with any appropriate information or advice about the shot at hand, shared a handful of interesting facts and stories about the course. Otherwise, it was how do you do, nice to meet you, nice shot. No attempt at being comedians or entertainers or "personalities" and no upstaging the dynamics of the group I was playing in.

3) Subtly managed the pacing of the round or so it appears to me in retrospect. We moved along at an appropriate pace but never got into any sort of a hurry-up mode. A caddie can urge the group on or can hold the group back, both of which feel like you're marching to someone else's drum. These guys went with the flow while still setting a fair pace and assuring time to stop and smell the roses while we're at it. Experience with other caddies tells me this is harder than it appears.

4) Were not my best friend for the day nor were they excessively deferential. Once again, you can't take for granted that sort of matter-of-fact demeanor with caddies. It's a tricky read of the golfer for them to get this right but the pros at CPC nailed it.

I will also so while my caddie experience at Cypress Point was as good as it could possibly get, the caddie assigned to me last year on my visit to Sage Valley was every bit as good. That was one caddie per player rather than two caddies sharing a group, which is perhaps an easier task. But he was very helpful given my pitiful, struggling game at the time and added a lot to the experience. Once again, I can't really say in general that caddies have been on balance more of a complement than a distraction to rounds in their company. CPC, Sage Valley and the guy who kept me dry during a freezing, rainy round at the the Ocean Course a few years back are the exceptions that "prove" the rule (in the original sense of the phrase).

[JMEvensky]

There are plenty of clubs in this country dropping $500K or more on caddies every year.  I'll bet Winged Foot is over $1MM.  Now, if the money is there and the members are OK with the subsidy (they probably look at it partially as charity), then that's fine and so be it.  But any club that is at or near the point of struggling financially will sooner or later need to take a look at eliminating mandatory caddies as a way of reducing TCO for their members and getting them to come to the club more often and spend money that inures to the club.  That's just simple economics and it's going to happen one way or the other.

Is this number right?I really don't know--just that it seems pretty high.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

What main problem of Caddies are you talking about?  I cannot see how any price of Caddies is hurting you one bit...you are losing something, suffering something...just how?  

I couldn't give a hoot about the huge market I'm missing out on if only my rates were lower.

You want something, a service?...pay for it, the going rate.  

You're free to value the service as much or as little as you want, however a Club Caddie is not free to decline to offer the service...in any situation I'm aware of (here or in the UK) and I would consider my self a bona fide expert in the field.

Ay, there's the rub...the Caddie must show up at a particular market place on the chance that Sean Arble wanted to, today, play Golf. Will Sean Arble pay a "fee" to ensure there is ample work to make the endeavor worth it...what if it should rain and the course be unplayable, what if only a handful of golfers show up and there is work for only 1/3rd of the yard. what do the other 2/3rds - who already gave consideration in advance - receive?

And lemme tell you, the club with mandatory Caddie rules and rates may have jacked up the market to X player but they have also closed it for Y Caddie, because Club Caddies are also not free to go to the highest bidder...if that was the case, you would have anarchy every busy morning on the tee and I would have already been a wealthy man.  That's one of the main roles the Caddiemaster performs in a private club (again, the only situation of caddying that truly exists here in America)

If it's a private club and the mores of the club are known to you...then you knew that, why did you join?

If its a public course (there are only about a two dozen "public" in the entire USA that require the use of Caddies and they all cost a boatload to start with) then carry your own or take a cart. End of story.

And as to open market as you are clarifying it, it's clearly in play in this region....of the 275 private clubs within 50 miles of NYC, there are about 60 that pay a comparatively low wage and/or don't mandate the use of caddies except for weekends; they have the weakest and smallest Caddie unit and/or the members are carrying their own bags or using carts...fine, if they want better they'll pay more and change the rules.  When those Caddies of such a club (usually kids) go off property or I caddie at their club with them in a tournament, I know most of them are not worth a damn, and are just valued as two shoulders that facilitate a player's walking.

Meanwhile at the 40 clubs that pay the highest wages and have the most inflexible rules of caddie usage, the Caddies are spoken of the way this board speaks of classic architecture, they are a part of the paradoxical ethos of the conduct of Golf at that club.

Caddies find their way to clubs that make the most satisfactory sense to caddy amongst this broad range.

I just wish Shivas and you, amongst others, would just come out and say what your issue is.  To me, it sounds like a Caddie is just not worth that much to you, period.

that's OK, I'm a middle-faring man who doesn't need a Caddie either and sighs when I am given access to other clubs and have to pay $80 for something I didn't need and maybe was only worth 20 bucks to me at most.  A Caddie is largely an intrusion to my own Golf, I admit it. However, when I wanted to be at quaker ridge, at wf, at baltusrol, national, and the scores of first class courses my love for Golf wanted to visit. I'm following their way, not my way.  This is not because I myself am a Caddie, it's because the members of such clubs DO value the service and I am their guest.  It is not for me to further opportunize the sheer access, that they did not have to grant, to make a guy lose the $40 difference he showed up for with such an agreement in place?

But it is all summed up by what "harm" is being done to you, where is your suffering in all of this?  

Colin,

This is the Metropolitan NYC ("Met area"). Yes they are, rolling in it.  No one f'n knows this. Prior to the 08 crash, clubs such as my little one in CT was charging $125K initiation and soup to nuts if you enjoyed your club fully, you were doling out $40K annually 

Scott,

Do you have Caddies in that 1/10th expensive segment of the private world?  Please specify.

cheers

vk

V

You misunderstand, I am not hurt in the least by caddie programs.  I never claimed to be hurt and I am not hurting anyone with my opinion.  I am merely pointing out the main problem being that there aren't more caddies around because the price is too high - artificially high because of club/resort rules.  Personally, I would rather caddying be left to teenagers as it creates employment for kids (and all that means in terms of growing up) and the service would be more affordable.  Who knows, caddies might then become a part of the regular golf scene rather than merely the haunts of exclusive clubs/resorts.  I would be happy to take a caddie (teenage that is) for a fair price and would do much more often if this was the case.  But I will be damned if taking a caddie will be anything much more than following the rules of a club or resort when I visit at $75 a pop.  Shit, a game of golf has to be damn good to pay that much.  I am not sure a caddie can ever be worth it and for the vast majority of golfers this is the case.  Caddies are priced outside the real labour market and I suspect its down to this that growing the concept of caddies is nigh on impossible.  But again, I don't begrudge anybody the right too caddy or employ a caddy.  For the guys on the bags its a damn good deal and they should be happy with the pay.  

Ciao  

[Lou_Duran]

I was told by someone whose credentials are impeccable that a Top 10 golf club with a mandatory caddie policy has numerous members who wait until the shack empties in the early afternoon to play.  Some don't start near the clubhouse to avoid a straggler looking for a loop.

We've had this "argument" before on this site, probably a few times.  Unfortunately for those who like to use caddies and the caddies themselves, without a mandatory policy or subsidies from the club, that way of playing golf is essentially dead.  Expense is a big factor, but some just don't like the underlying dynamics of the relationshiip.

Seeing 6-8 people heading down a fairway or on a green is jarring on the senses if one is looking at golf as a refuge from the busy, crowded daily environment.  I am probably more patient than most, but I have a very hard time when I am playing with golfers, particularly if they're sharing a caddie, and they have to consult on every aspect of the upcoming shot before pulling the trigger.

A good question after this one has been answered might be "does a good caddie provide value"?.  To the vast majority of golfers, I think that the market suggests not.  But many on this site seem not to believe in markets anyways.  

    

[V. Kmetz]

Shivas,

most caddies suck.  And it's not the kids.  They're usually great.  Theiir energy is palpable and infectious - an honest-to-goodness thing of beauty.  The problem is the plague found in most caddy shacks -- lifers who half-ass it around the course because they think they've somehow earned the right over time to do so.  It's an insult to the job a great caddie does for his loops.  That's the first thing.

You're entitled to your opinion, but this is a gross generlization, on both ends...of lifers and of kids.  There are many, many kids until they have more than a season+ under their belt who will lose your clubs quicker than find any golf ball.  There are lifers, I could name thirty of the top of my head (and about 200 if I had a day or to) who take every single loop they are issued without debate and make the guy feel like a tour Pro.

btw: you are dead-on about the amounts transacted in private clubs, you may be underselling it at the high-end private clubs.

Sean (and shivas)

You both seem to suggest that if the rates were "lower" "fair" "more reasonable" (you never specify) then somehow caddying would be flourishing...that thesis is out and out in error...it would just disappear, even fewer would do it, and it would be done less well.  

You have said the main problem is that there aren't more Caddies around; who is that a problem for?  Who says its a problem?  Is somethign being damaged or marginalized by the absence of Caddies?

Make the pay even greater and I GUARANTEE there will be more Caddies around.

and Sean..."Caddies are priced outside the real labour market..."  Well, golf and private clubs are priced outside of the real market too...so you're not saying anything revolutionary there.  how much are Golf pros paid for being there, for giving lessons, how much are dinners and what is the markup on Iced Tea...you might as well as indict the entire industry - which is a luxury.

and Sean... you said that its a damn good job and we should be happy with the pay...OK...we are...or at least I am...and those of my best brethren are too...we never made it an issue.  You did. This was a thread on what constitutes a good caddie; you and Shivas amongst others used it as a platform to not talk about the features of a good Caddie but about how they make too much money, because you either can't afford it or don't see much value in it to start with, or generalize the parameters of the service.

If I contributed to the de-evolution of the thread, it's because I'm not going to let you take potshots at a practice because you think its overpriced.  I think an Audi is overpriced...does that mean it is or that it's even germane to the entire car industry?

and Shivas, no...mandatory Caddies are not the equivalent of SS/Medicaid of golf...no one dies, goes hungry, homeless or grows ill because there are more or less Caddies.  Not even the Caddies themselves.  Even as a stepped-off analogy, its just a quip, it doesn't mean anything

Lou/shivas - look at the play sheet before caddie hour and after caddie hour...if you can find me any statistical data to support your argument, bring  forth in more than an unprovable anecdote.  And I'll wager you all the money in my pockets that "Caddie" hour has more vistors than non-Caddie hour.  I've studied this for a living for almost 30 years...the only people who do what you suggest people do are also the biggest cretans in every other phase of their club conduct...they take soap from the showers, bottled waters for their dog, and want to play 13 holes on a cart and only be billed for 9.  They have their green eye shades on the moment they get the lay of the land about just how expensive this luxury is - in all facets, beyond caddying.  They should go to another course/club, if things are so bad.

Lastly I return to my original contentions...you admit you don't have skin in the game, you do not begrudge others for doing what they wish, you talk about markets, real and subidized, but you want the Caddies return to the "regular golf scene" (what is that, exactly)...

Why, so you can be happy?

cheers

vk

[V. Kmetz]

Appendix:

If a Caddie now commands $75 and you play forty times a year, you spend $3000.00 that year on Caddies.

If we cut it in half and the Caddies made $37.50, you would spend $1500 that year on Caddies...

You're trying to tell me that $1500 a year more or less is the tipping point on your enjoyment of a golf club?

What on earth are you doing paying people to carry your stinking golf bag 40x a year if you are so poor?

cheers

vk

[Kalen Braley]

Appendix:

If a Caddie now commands $75 and you play forty times a year, you spend $3000.00 that year on Caddies.

If we cut it in half and the Caddies made $37.50, you would spend $1500 that year on Caddies...

You're trying to tell me that $1500 a year more or less is the tipping point on your enjoyment of a golf club?

What on earth are you doing paying people to carry your stinking golf bag 40x a year if you are so poor?

cheers

vk

Thats really the point I thought...

Most won't pay $37.50 much less $75.  Its a simple matter of economics and/or not seeing value for the money spent.

[JMEvensky]

VK,Kalen's probably right.I wish it were different,but that's just the way it is now.

You're fortunate in that you're at a place with a strong caddie culture.In my part of the world,that culture has ceased to exist.There are many reasons--economics certainly is the main one.Even if my club hired Fluff,Bones,Stevie and a hundred like them,they'd rarely get a bag. 

Except for a small percentage of clubs,the caddie program is as likely to come back as the Monty Python parrot.

[Jud_T]

I don't have a problem with clubs that require taking caddies at whatever price, "fair market" or otherwise.  If it were truly a free market then memberships would be auctioned on Stubhub...they are not generally (yet)...  If this is the structure of the club, then this is part of the cost of joining.  If you think it's too expensive/round for your taste/wallet when you factor in the caddy fees, don't join.  What I do have a problem with are clubs that require taking caddies, but will generally not be able to honor a request for a single...

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()