[Patrick_Mucci]

in a while is the 17th hole at Essex County East.

A dogleg left, flat on the drive, uphill to a reverse redan green on the approach.

What makes the hole better ?

The cut down ALL of the trees.

Now, in addition to being a great reverse redan green, elevated above the fairway, it's also a SKYLINE green.
It's really sensational.

I immediately thought of the 3rd at Piping Rock.

While it could never be a skyline green, it would benefit TREMENDOUSLY from having the trees behind the green removed.

These trees "frame" the green.

Without them, definition is removed and the golfer is provided with fewer tactical signals to his eye, creating uncertainty.

As I reflected on what was accomplished at ECE, I thought of a hole or two at Belmont in Massachussetts, and how those holes would benefit from having the trees removed from behind the green.

Then, I thought of almost every hole with trees behind the green framing the green.

Many of these trees were planted PRIOR to the introduction of marked sprinkler caps, GPS and laser range finders.

Hence, with all of these devices at the golfer's disposal, the golfer no longer needs the assistance provided by framing, and as such, all of those trees, (except safety buffers) should go.

There's nothing quite like the reintroduction of a skyline green.

Perhaps the 9th at PV will be next 

What other holes would take a quantum leap in terms of playability if the trees/shrubs behind the green were removed ?

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Pat,

We have been slowly removing at Springdale in Princeton all the evergreens so thoughtlessly planted behind our greens and which were offering double penalties.

As far as Pine Valley number 9 is concerned, if you are are long you go down a steep ravine into the 18th so I'm not sure what tree removal will accomplish there as far as playability.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

We have been slowly removing at Springdale in Princeton all the evergreens so thoughtlessly planted behind our greens and which were offering double penalties.

As far as Pine Valley number 9 is concerned, if you are are long you go down a steep ravine into the 18th so I'm not sure what tree removal will accomplish there as far as playability.


Malcolm.

# 9 was originally a skyline green.

If you hit it that long, you deserve to go down that steep embankment.

The trees behind the green were planted for framing and bank stability, but, with the technical knowhow today, bank stability could be achieved through other methods, especially at a club with ample resources.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Malcolm,

I've never understood the logic in planting shrubs right behind a green.

I know that many clubs did it for "framing" or "beautification", but, as you mention, from a playability standpoint, it's a double penalty.

How much resistance did you get on the removal ?

George Bahto,

Can you post any photos of # 17, especially before and after pictures ?

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Pat,

No resistance whatsoever from the membership as I am cognizant of for the removal of the framing evergreen trees, not shrubs. If anything there were cheers and cries of exaltation.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Señor Mucci, given you say that this hole is an elevated reverse redan, how does the hole play? By that I mean, in relation to the original Redan concept? It has been said that reverse Redans are harder to build well because of the higher nature of a fade shot in relation to a draw. Add to that difficulty with this being elevated, as well as requiring a fade, how does the possible ground option factor in on this hole in comparison to the possible ground option on a standard Redan green?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jamie,

It's different from most because it's a par 4.

I've only seen a few par 4 redan greens, such as # 1 at The Creek and # 12 at Fishers Island.

The basic principles of play apply.

Since it's a dogleg left, hugging the left corner is advantageous, as is a draw off the tee.

As to the ground game, much depends upon the weather.

In the Spring in NJ, the ground game isn't a viable option.

But, as the course dries out, one has the choice of where to attack the green complex.

Added to the character of the hole is the skyline nature.

It's a great hole that follows one of the great double plateau greens in golf and preceeds on of the great finishing holes is golf.

ECE is a terrific golf course, a WIDE golf course.

[George_Bahto]

Pat thanks for the kind words - this is really a great golf hole ....  It's hard to get a good photo from the tee because the hole is uphill.

*   *   *

The original tee shot - 17 Essex Country CC - dogleg left, a 2-shot Reversed Redan. This hole is almost exactly like the 12th at Fishers Island



We expanded the right side off-fairway bunker (it ws the only fairway bunker when we started), which was straight to the line of the rough, pulling the far end of it into the fairway to just about the fairway centerline.

Membership complained it was too far into the fairway (booooooo - it was right at the 150 plate and just right!!) So we (sort of) compromised - hah - by shortening its intrusion into the fairway by about 10-yards or so    -   BUT in return ......   we added another smaller bunker about 15-20-yards further down .........  and we injected another bunker, short left of the green that although it looks as though it is greenside-front, it really is about 45-yards (deception bunkering).

The green has a high left side that spills balls to the right - the green is really a Cape green with a 15' dropoff to the hazard

[George_Bahto]

they wouldn’t let us put in the bunker at the beginning of the f’way

[George_Bahto]

[Greg Stebbins]

While the hole has the look of a redan due to the high left shoulder, it certainly doesn't play that way.  The green slopes sharply from left to right, but it does not fall away with the exception of the back right of the green where it falls off a central knob.  The real genius of the approach is that due to the 15 foot deep bunker on the right and the high left shoulder, your instinct is to try to play left.  Playing left leaves a very fast putt down the hill.  The correct play is to challenge the bunker on the right and leave an uphill putt, a scary shot especially from the rough.  These characteristics are more consistent with a cape than a redan.

Now, let's lose that tree on the left and make the tee shot interesting.

The trees around the green were taken down about 3 years ago.  The results are really spectacular.   I have to remind myself what it used to look like from time to time. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

George,

Thanks for the aerial and explanation.

Membership complaints ?  Or, golf's version of the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

It's so unfortunate that many features don't have a longer shelf life, and that the immediate reaction to change typically wins the day, politically and architecturally.

It's a great hole, sandwiched between other great holes.

The skyline effect is stupendous.

[Tom_Doak]

George:

Was there a bunker short and left of the green originally?  Or is that your idea?

[George_Bahto]

There was no bunker short left of the green when we started although it was part of the original course - it shows on an early aerial.

Tom, The original Raynor-Banks Concept drawing, the one they turned into the club, had that bunker in, in just about the place where we reestablished it. The approach to the green is slightly tilted, left to right, and the huge (deep) bunker on the right might come into play on run-up shots if you get too close to the right fairway line (up by the green).

What once was a hole that required a long second shot is now being played with much shorter irons. My personal thinking was placing that bunker where we did confounds the run-up, making the slot between it and greenside-right bunker look much more intimidating (this is the 17th hole, which had become much easier) but still afford plenty of room beyond the bunker for players coming up short of the green.

There is plenty of room between that left bunker and the green, although, from the 150-marker, it does look like it.

Speaking of their concept plan, the original called for nearly 100 or so bunkers. The club only allowed Banks to put in a little more than half of them.  ($$$$) We put a lot more bunkers back in. The course plays tough.

[Patrick Kiser]

Lincoln Park's 14th and Crystal Springs 12th have a similar kind of setup.  Flat drive to a sharp uphill left dogleg turn to a skyline green.  The green at Lincoln does tilt gently front to back like a reverse Redan table top might, but I wouldn't call it a reverse Redan.  Not sure about Crystal Springs.

I have no proof, but I have a suspicion these two holes are from Herbert Fowler because I've read how he was involved in the design of both courses.  Maybe our Bay Area resident expect Sean Tully knows more.  


Lincoln 14th Aerial:

[George_Bahto]

Here is the right side, greenside bunker face being sodded

[George_Bahto]

Greg, by the way, more often than not, Charles Banks’ Redan greens really did not capture the true essence of the original as much as Raynor’s did. When on his own, he had this thing about wanting the golfer to see the green on holes like the Redan. In many cases his tees were set up higher than most Redans and his slopes/tilts on Redan greens were much more moderate.

[Michael Barnett]

This is an excellent golf hole, largely driven by the visual deception on the approach.  Staring at the 15 foot bunker front right the instinct is to play left, however that only complicates things.  Any miss of the green left of the shoulder is certain death (IMO, that's why that bunker has the feel of a miss deep right on a traditional redan).  And as Greg pointed out, even putts from that side are no bargain when the speed is up. 

The skyline green is a fantastic addition which adds to the challenge of club selection on the approach.  My only quibble is that the player is forced to hit a big sweeping draw off the tee just to find the fairway or lay back to close to 180 yards.  Greg is right, the removal of the tree left would allow the player to have more of a decision off the tee, whether to attack and risk trouble left or lay back and accept a more difficult approach.

A great hole, one which adds tremendous variety to an already challenging finish.

[Tom_Doak]

George:

Why do you want to confound the run-up?  Seems like it would be hard enough to pull off the shot considering the uphill approach.  And with the length of the hole, the only guys who are going to try to run the ball up are the 15-handicappers and the older members.

[George_Bahto]

Tom, that was the trade-off problem; compound the short-hitter run up or put that bunker in, to add greatly to the hole. There is still a lot of room for the lesser golfer - actually, I moved that bunker more left into the rough than originally planned to make a little more room, then we altered the mowing pattern to the left a bit, to get the bunker back into the fairway.

Michael Barnett: I don’t know if we’ve met but it sounds like you are a member.

The problem with removing the big trees at the dog-leg corner is you really shorten up the hole for the big hitter - we discussed that with the membership when we did that hole. Listen, you still have guys at ECCC that carry the ball over the trees in the corner (wow).

I agree, the tee shot commands a great drive to gain an advantage - not a lot of room in the landing area for a big hitter

Ideally, it would have been great to be able to lengthen the hole by about 20+ yards but the tee is right at the property line.

17 is tough hole, 15 is a tough Biarritz, 16 - tough - a great double plateau and 18 is a great finisher, especially with that new back tee just off the 17th green ..................  this is part of what makes the back nine at Essex County so great

[George_Bahto]

The 16th at Essex County has a great untouched Double Plateau green - pardon the house, it's not ours

[Alex Lagowitz]

I am a member of Essex County, and I can tell you that a long hitter has great difficulty in hitting the fairway with a driver on this hole.  Many long hitters take a line over the corner of the left tree line, carrying as much as they dare.  The green does have a kick board on the left side of the green, which is similar to that of the 12th at Fisher's (or so I have heard), yet the rough lingers on the hill and it is very difficult to play the shot with a reverse redan attitude.  It the rough were to be shaved down, it would be much easier to run it up the left side.
In response to Mr. Doak, the bunker short left is approximately 50 yards from the green.  Very few people ever go in that bunker, but visually it does a good job in framing the hole.  There is still plenty of room to run up the ball, even for the high handicapper. 

Attached is the original drawing by Banks dated 1930.

[Alex Lagowitz]

Additionally, this is what Pat is describing as the skyline green as in seen in the picture below from about 100 yards.  The treetops you see are almost 300 yards behind the green.

[Roger Wolfe]

THIS is the best improvement I've seen.  God took the trees... the insurance company will pay
to take them away.  Luckiest membership on the planet (Glenrochie CC)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diA1EslL7Nw&amp

[Jerry Kluger]

George: A few questions.  The bunker on the left side of the green - I don't know that I have seen a bunker before on the "outside" of a redan green - am I correct? 

Let me ask from an average player's perspective about how the hole plays.  It looks like the tee shots requires you to turn the ball quite a bit or the average player is going to go directly into those bunkers - big hitters go over the tree or don't hit driver and turn over a shorter club.  How much slope is there to the area beyond the front left bunker from which you are trying to kick the ball on - must the ball be fading in order for it to carom onto the green? 

Jerry

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