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Mike Cirba

Please see what I think is an incredible look at the historical evolution of San Francisco Golf Club, courtesy of the work of Phil Young, as published in the most recent Tillinghast Association newsletter.

Some other great stuff in there, as well, but Phil's piece just blows me away and may set a new standard for unraveling complicated course evolutions!

http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1101825906573-44/TI+FinalS.pdf
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 11:41:54 AM by MCirba »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thanks Mike.

Good job Phil!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Mingay

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Very interesting, Phil. Great work. Thanks.
jeffmingay.com

Jim Eder

Phil,

Really terrific stuff. SFGC is one of my fav clubs and golf courses and this piece is just wonderful, so additive to the understanding of it all. Just excellent, thank you.

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0

Thanks for the link ,Mike.

It's really great to understand more about a favorite of mine, SFGC.  Im very glad that Phil has done such diligent research and generously  shared with all on the Tillinghast website !

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
After reading that I think my head is about ready to blow. Could someone give me the condensed version of what happened because I'm completely confused. Is there a mention of Billy Bell? I didn't see one, but I may have missed it.

"...in 1916 the new course was designed, laid out and built by A.P. Welch, Green Chairman; John C. Augsbury and George S. Garritt, both committee members."

Seeing that Lock was one of the more active golf architects in the Bay Area at the time I find this conclusion highly unlikely. By the way Columbia was not designed by members either.  

Now that the history has been released I'd sure like to get Sean Tully's take on the events at SFGC based what he has uncovered.

 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 12:38:38 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
"He recommended that the club hire a trusted friend and fellow architect for whom he had great respect, Billy Bell, to oversee the construction. Together they would form an architectural partnership in 1937."

I did just now find one mention of Bell, but nothing about the current look and feel of the bunker's being his influence.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 10:55:13 AM by Tom MacWood »

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
After reading that I think my head is about ready to blow. Could someone give me the condensed version of what happened because I'm completely confused. Is there a mention of Billy Bell? I didn't see one, but I may have missed it.

"...in 1916 the new course was designed, laid out and built by A.P. Welch, Green Chairman; John C. Augsbury and George S. Garritt, both committee members."

Seeing that Lock was one of the more active golf architects in the Bay Area at the time I find this conclusion highly unlikely. By the way Columbia was not designed by members either.  

Now that the history has been released I'd sure like to get Sean Tulley's take on the events at SFGC based what he has uncovered.

 


If Phil concluded that sky was blue I am sure that you would find it highly unlikely....
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 11:11:20 AM by Sean Leary »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean
Could you please explain who did what at SFGC?

Did Tilly design a new golf course or did redesign an existing course?

 

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom,

If I made up a story would you feel more comfortable with my conclusion?

Please do everyone a favor and stay out of this one.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom,

If I made up a story would you feel more comfortable with my conclusion?

Please do everyone a favor and stay out of this one.

May I suggest you take your own advice. You clearly have no interest in adding anything of substance, as usual.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
And you have no interest in doing anything other than trying to discredit Phil.

Why don't you do your own research on this and give us your conclusion before you just throw out red herrings of doubt like you always do.

Otherwise, I will stay off this thread if you promise to. 

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean
I have no interest in discrediting Phil-the-author; his work over the years speaks for itself. I'm interested in discovering the real story at SFGC, and although I find this most recent history very interesting, I think it opens up as many new questions as it answers old ones.

I've had a long time interest in the history of SFGC as illustrated by these threads dealing directly or indirectly with the subject. I don't believe you added anything of substance to these threads either.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41978.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35387.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22706.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1211.0.html

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Oh, good...another pissing contest...Mike Cirba, start another thread on Phil's work, but disguise it better.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Sean
Could you please explain who did what at SFGC?

Did Tilly design a new golf course or did redesign an existing course?

 

Tom given your less than exceptional reputation and record for truth here, I question my decision to move into this discussion, however, you have obviously not read all of this article or you would have seen the passage on page 7: "Upon his arrival, now four years after he originally first designed a course for the Club, Tilly created what he would himself refer to as a new original design, as it not only completely changed what the members had done but also differed in many aspects from what he had originally proposed. Every green was reshaped, each tee relocated, fairways were either re-shaped or moved entirely, the course was lengthened and 76 bunkers were added to a layout that already had more than 100 on it." It is rather obvious to me what that passage says. However, you, with your personal vendetta against Mr. Young refuse to see it; given your exploits of the past, your affection for matters of truth, I would be forced into disbelief if you were to say that water is liquid.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 04:02:37 PM by Jamie Van Gisbergen »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
These are some questions I have:

Willie Locke designed a high percentage of golf courses in the Bay area in the 10s and 20s, and he wrote the article describing the new SFGC, but the conclusion is made he did not design the course. Instead three member are responsible for the design, layout and construction. What information is that conclusion based upon?

Was it common in 1918 for committees to design golf courses?

Three months after the course opens its reported the course will be redesigned. The third, forth, fifth, sixth and seventh holes will be redesigned. Who was going to redesign those holes? Were those the same holes Tilly supposedly redesigned in 1920?

Is George Low responsible for the redesign of the greens at Midwick or Tilly? Low and Tilly collaborated in previous years, but most accounts I've read have Low going to Midwick solo. Tilly never took credit for Midwick.

The article claims Tilly and Lapham's friendship was cemented at the US Am at Merion in 1916. Tilly did not play in the 1916 US Am. How did that work?

It also mentions they played at Shawnee and I find no record of Lapham ever going to Shawnee. Were did that info come from?

Lapham was actually raised in NYC and was a member at Apawamis, and did not move out west until 1911. If the two men were friendly isn't it more likely they met in competitions on the east coast prior to 1911? I do know Lapham and Tilly played in tournament at Atlantic City in 1903 and I suspect there were others. Lapham moved back to NY in 1917, enlisted in the military and was stationed near Bellport. Tilly was just becoming active in the area around that time; I think Lapham may have been become aware of Tilly's architectural abilities at that time.

Lapham was gassed during WWI and recouped in Paris and NYC after the war. Was he in San Francisco when the decision was made to hire Tilly in early 1920?

Why is Billy Bell not given more credit?

I do not expect any of these questions will be answered, but I think it is important to raise them.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 12:18:25 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean
Could you please explain who did what at SFGC?

Did Tilly design a new golf course or did redesign an existing course?

 

Tom given your less than exceptional reputation and record for truth here, I question my decision to move into this discussion, however, you have obviously not read all of this article or you would have seen the passage on page 7: "Upon his arrival, now four years after he originally first designed a course for the Club, Tilly created what he would himself refer to as a new original design, as it not only completely changed what the members had done but also differed in many aspects from what he had originally proposed. Every green was reshaped, each tee relocated, fairways were either re-shaped or moved entirely, the course was lengthened and 76 bunkers were added to a layout that already had more than 100 on it." It is rather obvious to me what that passage says. However, you, with your personal vendetta against Mr. Young refuse to see it; given your exploits of the past, your affection for matters of truth, I would be forced into disbelief if you were to say that water is liquid.

Jamie
Did I comment on that particular quotation, and what is its relevance?

I think my record for the truth is pretty good, but of course after only ten posts you probably would not know that.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 12:33:37 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Please see what I think is an incredible look at the historical evolution of San Francisco Golf Club, courtesy of the work of Phil Young, as published in the most recent Tillinghast Association newsletter.

Some other great stuff in there, as well, but Phil's piece just blows me away and may set a new standard for unraveling complicated course evolutions!

http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1101825906573-44/TI+FinalS.pdf

I don't recall you being blown away when Sean Tully first revealed Locke likely designed the original SFGC several years ago (which is still largely the routing today).

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Sean
Could you please explain who did what at SFGC?

Did Tilly design a new golf course or did redesign an existing course?

 

Tom given your less than exceptional reputation and record for truth here, I question my decision to move into this discussion, however, you have obviously not read all of this article or you would have seen the passage on page 7: "Upon his arrival, now four years after he originally first designed a course for the Club, Tilly created what he would himself refer to as a new original design, as it not only completely changed what the members had done but also differed in many aspects from what he had originally proposed. Every green was reshaped, each tee relocated, fairways were either re-shaped or moved entirely, the course was lengthened and 76 bunkers were added to a layout that already had more than 100 on it." It is rather obvious to me what that passage says. However, you, with your personal vendetta against Mr. Young refuse to see it; given your exploits of the past, your affection for matters of truth, I would be forced into disbelief if you were to say that water is liquid.

Jamie
Did I comment on that particular quotation, and what is its relevance?

I think my record for the truth is pretty good, but of course after only ten posts you probably would not know that.

I don't think you did comment on that particular quotation, though you should have. Allow me to post it again, larger and in more vivid color, such that you won't need to use your spectacles to see it:

Every green was reshaped, each tee relocated, fairways were either re-shaped or moved entirely, the course was lengthened and 76 bunkers were added to a layout that already had more than 100 on it.

 If you are incapable of determining the meaning of that passage, I am not sure what I can do...perhaps I could write it out in Binary or Morse code for you.

My having only 10 posts doesn't mean I haven't read a lot of the things that have been said here and for a fairly lengthy span of time. Your attempts to demean the quality of this research (although I, myself, would like to see a set of endnotes/footnotes for this piece, but that is another matter) have motives as transparent as they are pathetic, given that Mr. Young is no longer here to defend himself or his work. And as I said before, your affection for matters of truth is well known to everyone who has read more than a few articles here, I need not go through the particulars.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 11:47:34 AM by Jamie Van Gisbergen »

Tom MacWood

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Jamie
I don't believe I questioned your quote from the article so I'm still wondering what is its relevance. What is its relevance?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
The article stated Lapham was wound in September 1918 and then was back in SF in late 1919 after an early release from the military. Also late 1919 Tilly was in California working on 'other courses' and Lapham recommended SFGC hire him, which they did. Tilly's plan was approved in January 1920.

Lapham was severely wounded in September 1918. It was reported March 1919 in American Golfer that he was recuperating in Paris.

In October 1919 he was back in the States and played in invitational tournament at Greenwich. He was playing out of Woodway; his father's estate was in Connecticut.

In February 1920 Mr. & Mrs. Roger Lapham of NY checked into the Homestead at Hot Springs.

In June 1920 Lapham played in the Met Am at Apawamis. He was playing out of Apawamis.

In July 1920 he partnered with Ted Ray and defeated Harry Vardon & Findlay Douglas, at Apawamis.

The first mention I've seen of him back in California is September 1920 when he was elected president of the California Golf Association.

I have a couple of questions:

What golf courses was Tilly working on in California in 1919? Tilly's comprehensive list of courses, which he produced in the mid-20s, only lists two California courses - SFGC and Midwick.

Are you certain Lapham was responsible for Tilly being hired by SFGC? He was living in NYC during the time Tilly was hired. Was Lapham calling the shots from the east coast?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 11:12:27 AM by Tom MacWood »

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jamie
I don't believe I questioned your quote from the article so I'm still wondering what is its relevance. What is its relevance?


Tom, I believe Jamie was stating that the quote answered one of your questions.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Jamie
I don't believe I questioned your quote from the article so I'm still wondering what is its relevance. What is its relevance?

Tom-You obviously suffer from either a lack of ability to read or a lack of comprehension ability.  Allow me to post the quote in Morse, see if you can read and comprehend it then...

. ...- . .-. -.-- / --. .-. . . -. / .-- .- ... / .-. . ... .... .- .--. . -.. --..-- / . .- -.-. .... / - . . / .-. . .-.. --- -.-. .- - . -.. --..-- / ..-. .- .. .-. .-- .- -.-- ... / .-- . .-. . / . .. - .... . .-. / .-. . -....- ... .... .- .--. . -.. / --- .-. / -- --- ...- . -.. / . -. - .. .-. . .-.. -.-- --..-- / - .... . / -.-. --- ..- .-. ... . / .-- .- ... / .-.. . -. --. - .... . -. . -.. / .- -. -.. / --... -.... / -... ..- -. -.- . .-. ... / .-- . .-. . / .- -.. -.. . -.. / - --- / .- / .-.. .- -.-- --- ..- - / - .... .- - / .- .-.. .-. . .- -.. -.-- / .... .- -.. / -- --- .-. . / - .... .- -. / .---- ----- ----- / --- -. / .. - .-.-.-


Now, the real meaning of that passage, if you haven't yet understood it, is that Tilinghast took what was a rudimentary golf course that according to the article was widely regarded as poor, kept only the basic routing, and changed nearly everything else about the course. The article also states that he came back, redesigned the greens again, added length, and moved at least one green. That is a key indicator of original design. This discussion with you is pointless, I'd have better success trying to argue with a tree stump. Your personal vendetta against Mr. Young is apparent to anyone who has read the discussions here for any length of time; you have no desire to know what the truth of the matter is, your only desire is to discredit the work of Mr. Young. I'm done.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 11:04:07 AM by Jamie Van Gisbergen »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jamie
I don't believe I questioned your quote from the article so I'm still wondering what is its relevance. What is its relevance?


Tom, I believe Jamie was stating that the quote answered one of your questions.


Charlie
Are you referring to the question: Did Tilly design a new golf course or did he redesign an existing course? 

I don't believe Jamie's quote answers that question.

Looking at the map circa 1918, and looking at the layout today, it seems pretty clear the routing is the same with a couple of exceptions, yet the article seems to take the stance the course was a new Tilly design. If the routing is Locke's (or the members) than it is a redesign of an existing course. Tilly himself advertised his work at SFGC in 1920 as a reconstruction, and the routing remained basically the same through the changes in 1924 and 1930.

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Jamie
I don't believe I questioned your quote from the article so I'm still wondering what is its relevance. What is its relevance?


Tom, I believe Jamie was stating that the quote answered one of your questions.


Charlie
Are you referring to the question: Did Tilly design a new golf course or did he redesign an existing course? 

I don't believe Jamie's quote answers that question.

Looking at the map circa 1918, and looking at the layout today, it seems pretty clear the routing is the same with a couple of exceptions, yet the article seems to take the stance the course was a new Tilly design. If the routing is Locke's (or the members) than it is a redesign of an existing course. Tilly himself advertised his work at SFGC in 1920 as a reconstruction, and the routing remained basically the same through the changes in 1924 and 1930.

Tom the only person on here for whom the question is not answered is you, Sir. It is readily apparent that the basic routing is much the same in the Tilly renovation as in the original. It is also clearly stated what Tilly did, allow me to repost my quote, once again, to see if you can comprehend it this time, given that I have said that it is clearly shown in the article that the basic routing remained the same: Every green was reshaped, each tee relocated, fairways were either re-shaped or moved entirely, the course was lengthened and 76 bunkers were added to a layout that already had more than 100 on it.  Every aspect of the original design other than a basic routing was changed. But of course this doesn't clear anything up for you.

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