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Don_Mahaffey

What makes a course obsolete?
« on: February 03, 2002, 06:53:51 AM »
We have been hearing a lot about this or that course being rendered obsolete by technology. Why do we consider a course obsolete just because the best players in the world score better then they did a decade ago? Does it really matter if once a year the traveling circus comes into town and they reach all four par 5s and never hit more then a 9 iron into the par 4s. Why do we spend so much time grading our great courses based on how less than 1/10th of 1% of the golfers play them? If any of us where at Royal Melbourne this week, would we walk away saying to ourselves, “this course is not much of a test anymore.” I doubt it.

Let the tour develop their TPC courses to suit the PGA game and leave the great courses of the world alone. I know that is a naïve statement as there is some sort of ego thing in golf that says our courses are only great if the pros say so. It isn’t so. Is the average handicap suddenly 10 strokes lower because of improved technology? I don’t think so, if fact I don’t think it’s any lower then it was a decade ago.

We in golf spend way to much time worrying about what the tour players are doing. And for golf course decision makers to grade their course based on how Tiger and the boys play it is incredibly stupid. Can they dunk like Jordan or hit like Bonds. I doubt it and they probably can’t hit it like the guys on tour either.

For the life of me, I can’t understand why the great clubs of our country are so willing to alter their magnificent courses in an attempt to appease the USGA. If we truly want the USGA to rein in the ball and clubs, the courses need to tell the USGA where they can stick their championship requirements. Augusta is no longer anything more then a tournament course designed to test the world’s best players one week a year. Is Augusta a better course for it’s members now, I doubt it. How many courses will this happen to in our country before they wise up and realize that it’s not all about hosting a tournament once every 10 years. If the memberships refused to alter their courses to the absurd lengths the USGA required, where would they go with their championship? My guess is it would either force them to act on the ball issue or develop their own tournament course
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

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Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2002, 10:09:43 AM »
Don, I hope you don't expect to have generated a long thread here.  You make too damn much sense to debate the issue!  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Evan Fleisher

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Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2002, 12:54:19 PM »
What more needs to be said?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 12.2. Have 24 & 21 year old girls and wife of 27 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

David_Elvins

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Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2002, 01:36:25 PM »

Don,
What you said makes alot of sense but I would just like to say the following.  I love to seet the Pro's play the worlds best courses because the subtle strategy required on many of these finds so many out.  I enjoy watching that and you don't see this on so many TPC courses.  However I would also love the course to retain the same shot values that it was designed to play.  ie. Players hitting long irons into a green that was designed to have long irons hit into it.  So yes, I agree that courses should not be tricked up for the Pros but I can't see anything wrong with adding length to a course. (in the absense of a standardised ball that flys shorter.)  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2002, 01:20:46 AM »
Don,

When I saw this thread, I thought to myself what the hell does he mean 'obsolete'...no course is obsolete for me!!

I then read what you had to say and that is near enough what you are saying.  For us mere mortals there aren't many if any courses that are obsolete.

I played Southport and Ainsdale a few years ago and really enjoyed the course.  It is a bit quirky and a very short but that is not the point the point is that it is a pretty good linksy sort of course but the most important thing is that I enjoyed the round.  I teamed up with 3 students and we played matchplay and the game ended a tie on the 18th after the final putt dropped.  How much more fun can you have on a golf course.

Afterwards I went in the bar and looked at the small Ryder Cup museum and spoke to the secretary and had a really good day.

People say that the S & A is to short and is obsolete...bollocks...it is still used for British Open qualifying and although some call it obsolete it still goes into my itinerary before Royal Birkdale every time.

As long as a good strategic course is still fun to play then it is never obsolete..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

TEPaul

Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2002, 04:10:22 AM »
Don:

Great post! Although the idea of "obsolete" does seem stupid in many cases there are only degrees of stupidity to me in the examples you cite.

If in fact Tiger and the Tour come to town one week a year and play a particular course I guess I can see that course being concerned about the ever increasing distances the tour pros are hitting the ball and consequently fearing their course is becoming obsolete. You know as well as any of us the "pride" some of these courses and their proprietors feel in their courses.

ANGC is certainly a special case and not a very good example--but that course is unique in holding such a visible tournament.

Courses that go through this process of feeling obsolete  because of the USGA held tournaments is far more maddening to me though. Generally this revolves around US Open planning only and far less for the other USGA tournments. This is where messy situations seem to develop with some of the real classic American courses like Merion, Riviera and Oakmont and the other old classics that are still left on the USGA Open rota.

What is most maddening though are the courses that think they're obsolete although there is not a chance in hell that the tour or Tiger or anyone on the tour will ever visit and play their course. This really does bespeak the fascination that golf generally has always held for the Tours of the world with  some kind of Walter Mitty like connection to what they see week in and week out on the tours on TV. The courses that redesign, add length and consider their courses obsolete in this category are far more numerous and make far less sense to me. These club's perception of their courses are generally driven by some long hitting members or some green committee members who wants to prevent their course from being considered a "whimp"--believe me I know, I've seen too much of it around here.

There is very much a "trickle down effect" here with this distance issue, though, which does not involve the tours at all.

Take the Golf Association of Philadelphia, for instance. The Association has about 120 clubs and the tournaments we hold per year number about 50 total with about a half dozen for class A low handicap players. Forget about the tour players, the distances some of these players today, particularly the young ones, are hitting the ball is down right shocking and very much does have an effect on the way the proprietors of these clubs view their courses! As you know distance is a real fascination in golf, always has been, and clubs can be very sensitive in this area!

As far as what these class A players are shooting today, the scores are probably a bit better on the winning end than in the past but the general "fields" are scoring a lot better than they used to. Not really enough lower in either area though to get too concerned about the course becoming "obsolete" though, in my opinion. Some of this does probably have to do with other and subtle ways of protecting against low scoring like the far faster green speeds today!

You take my course as an example when it held the Philly Amateur a few years ago. It's qualifying and then match play so the scores were not so noticeable although in medal play qualifying the scores were not particularly low but the fact is there is an enormous contingent of players who probably hit not much more than a 7 or 8 iron into any hole (even 2 of the 3 par 5s!). This kind of thing, as you can imagine, does give the club pause and in some sectors inspires talk of "obsolete".

We are going to try to lengthen our course as much as possible (can only do very little actually) but it is a very simple affair that will do little or nothing to the course's architecture!

I wouldn't get to upset at Nicklaus though and what he said about the sandbelt courses and the "championship" courses of this country and the world though. He does know of what he speaks, he's talking about "championship" courses only apparently and his message is far more that the ball should be controlled and not the courses redesigned.

But the real crime in the perception of "obsolete" is the  example of  Riviera! That's a crime and the USGA and their tag team architect and contractor should be ashamed of themselves and the club should feel duped and certainly the members should put their foot down on paying a single cent to have their course lengthened and redesigned for a propective Open that is no more than a carrot on a string at this point! That's shameful--that whole process--and obsolete is probably the thought that starts the whole process!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2002, 04:31:28 AM »
How long did the USGA dangle that very same carrot in front of Merion??!

One wonders if the "white faces" wouldn't still exist if not for the decades long process of trying to curry USGA favor because of the perception that Merion is "obsolete".

The whole process is taking on the stink of a sleazy beauty pageant, with hush-hush deals being cut in smoke-filled rooms.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2002, 05:59:15 AM »
Don Mahaffey

As you probably agree, the likelihood that any club (other than LA CC) with a championship track would DQ themselves from Open or tour tournament consideration is pretty low for all the financial and psychic reasons that we all recognize.
I'm afraid we're stuck with that which you lament as long as the carrot exists.

On the good side, most effective club powers-that-be recognize that the occasional championship can bring the membership together for a common cause, provide a good mid-term examination for the course and force the club to hear the input of others instead of being totally inwardly focused.

Mike Cirba

I wasn't around GCA when the bunker restoration at Merion was being discussed.  Other than removing the elephant grass, how are the bunkers there no longer the "White Faces"?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2002, 06:53:08 AM »
Chip:

Ultimately the Golfclubatlas/Merion bunker restoration brouhaha revolved around one thing--the bunkers' surrounds in the restoration process. Beyond that it probably boiled down to whether they (the surrounds) should be restored by hand or primarily by machinery or even (and this was the never answered question) if and why the old surrounds should be touched at all in the restoration process. Some on Golfclubatlas and probably elsewhere felt if they were that famous and they had taken 80 years to get to look that rugged and good, why touch them now or ever? The thought was why not just keep on working on them the way Merion always had?

This had nothing really to do with sand and drainage (which desparately needed to be done). The thought was that sand and drainage restoration or repair is just a part of a process and that those things could be done but that the surrounds did not need to be part of the restoration process at least by anything other than handwork.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2002, 10:01:30 AM »
Speaking of Merion...

I assume tha this has been mentioned before, but I was a little disappointed when I saw what they did to #16 at Merion.  Does anyone know why they cut down the trees on the right and added those three little bunkers.  Do you guys feel that the changes strengthen this classic hole?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2002, 12:20:21 PM »
Geoffrey -

cutting down the trees was meant to reopen the alternative route that existed to the right of the ravine. This was originally meant to accomodate the shorter players, who didn't feel as if they could make the carry. Probably no longer a consideration with modern equipment.

 Indeed, even before the trees were cut down, the fairway snuck around the trees (look at the photo I am attaching).  

I personally really like what was done.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?zoom=11&mapdata=%2bDurgsgaQPub69bDlZnm9HB3DT8dNxvjJjymHEHUaS%2ffRtlrGZqludpBvQ4V7fmhzJA%2fk0tqnUqqaqIQVzLuGbUloib7jn6PGk8iM
G3G7%2bhvNiG6qhvTx2TGSj1TjPJlD02AQCVGctwfYEIoWLMnVho5JiEKUao0EW%2fcXsq70mk3b2MV%
2bGijKSIG7n%2bONl3424fQH2XNlbgJpI0d5VG03d8TE4DFFcrgCYHfV1bDFM9xJl8Eb8XRRSsDUveMg
FX9sYizYsrSpzVpGGYZZ4SOr5maHEIbTuy5IM2%2bstNn9LdpsNd%2bY0rhk39KG118IRFJGlVR9cTKK
gfx5ip3Gso1GgmT19DJKePRp4H0spYvFBQ%3d
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2002, 12:42:35 PM »
Don't think the trees were not there to accomodate the righthand play so much as that's just the way the hole was. I like it a lot and would very much like to see them take some out on the left too and very much open that side up and get that fairway back over to that old left fairway bunker.

Merion's going back to a restoration to 1930 and I would love to see them take most of their fairway width back too.

I like the look of the quarry and those bunkers up high from the tee too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2002, 12:46:38 PM »
Tom -
but why was the hole "just that way"?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2002, 01:26:11 PM »
SPDB;

Why was the hole just that way?

I presume because that's what Wilson found when he designed Merion. At least that's what the original aerials show.

Of course one of the everlasting questions always is what did the original designer have in mind for trees on sites where there were no trees? That is hardly ever known. Some might have planted them but I don't believe Wilson did that.

I have rarely, if ever, seen a design plan or even instructions for a course that had no trees but a designer planned them somehow in the original plans. Maybe they do appear in hole drawings and even routing plans but I never actually looked for that or noticed it.

The question I suppose should be what would Wilson have felt had he seen the course fifty years later?

The only early designer I know of that spoke much about trees was Crump and that was solely for hole separation at Pine Valley! Tillinghast and certainly William Flynn talked specifically about trees for strategic purposes!

Some on here don't like to hear about the use of trees by the early designers or admit it but it was undeniably true--because they wrote specifically about their use!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2002, 01:37:05 PM »
Tom
Why I asked that was because you seemed to indicate that the fairway around the right was not so much to accomodate play up that side, but rather because it was "just that way." Or that Wilson just "found it that way," but he couldn't find a fairway.

I don't really understand that. If there was no purpose to the fairway, then why send it out around the quarry in the first place? I mean

I'm just curious.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2002, 01:45:02 PM »
"Does it really matter if once a year the traveling circus comes into town and they reach all four par 5s and never hit more then a 9 iron into the par 4s. Why do we spend so much time grading our great courses based on how less than 1/10th of 1% of the golfers play them? If any of us where at Royal Melbourne this week, would we walk away saying to ourselves, “this course is not much of a test anymore.” I doubt it."

Don:  Your post loosely implies all is well in the world of golf and that the USGA need not make a stand on the ball to make the game a test for all players?  

Certainly, design alterations don't matter for most courses and even many of the best courses, but many of the courses we treasure weren't only designed to provide pleasure for just the average member, but all golfers...the great ones included...they were brutally tough, but aren't any longer. That test has been diminished and to make up for it added length and narrower fairways have become the answer.  I don't like the ribbons for fairways, but the length I can understand...the ball is out of control, and these new tees aren't the members tees they're lengthening.  It's no different from what Tillie had written (I think he wrote about this but don't have his book at hand) about courses of Championship standard becoming obsolete because of advances in ball development. They didn't narrow the fairways, just made courses ever longer.  

Having said that, I don't like what they've done to Augusta, and if I were decision maker at a club of stature I'd just take my name off the list for consideration for any major until the ball issue was satisfactorily answered; so in part we agree.  Let the Torrey Pines and Valhalla's of the world take the majors and let them butcher their courses when needed.  Perhaps then the USGA will wake up when their choices will only be looong modern courses with no history, no tradition and little character.

It would be great if a 6,700 yard inland course devoid of wind (and an un-Pine Valley like design) would be a real test for the best players?  Instead those first numbers are fast becoming reversed for US Open tests.  Torrey...7,607

The game was attractive 20 years ago when we used butter knives and whittled down tree branches at the end of steel shafts for golf clubs...when the ball had 336 dimples, weren't designed by NASA physicists and flew much shorter distances.  

Are golfers so additcted to the drug of distance that they don't want to give it up?  Would the average member notice if the ball were rolled back 10% and nobody told them?  I don't think so.

The game for better players no longer consists of long iron approaches from the fairway, unless it's to a par-5.  I remember Crenshaw laying-up short of the bunkers on the 17th at Royal Melbourne when he teamed up with Mark McCumber at the World Cup.  Els and 47 year old Norman beat 336 yard drives last week (perhaps conditions were different, they has a slight cross-downwind on the tee shot) and easily reached the green with irons...(can't remember where the hole falls in the new configuration...9th?).  Did anyone see a player lay-up on this hole during the entire tournament when in the fairway?  560 yards isn't what it used to be.  So eventhough we may not like it when a course undergoes lengthening, it's sometimes necessary if they want to provide a test, and these changes don't effect the members...it's not their tees that are being moved into the next county.

TEPaul:  You like the Finchem conspiracy theory.  Mr. Czardine of golf.  How about this for an Oliver Stone conspiracy theory.  The USGA and ASGCA are behind this.  They want the ball to go looooong because it will 1. allow them to get tons of remodel work and 2. when they've made tons of cash in this arena, the USGA will roll the ball back and the archies can "restore" all the courses. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2002, 02:20:48 PM »
SPDB:

Oh, sorry, I thought you meant the trees on the right of the quarry and I meant to say that Wilson found the quarry the way it is now without trees.

As for the little alternate fairwy around the right side of the quarry (the Ladies aid), that would work better now without the trees. It's an interesting little concept that does meld or practically melds into #15 tee boxes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2002, 02:41:31 PM »
TonyR:

You and Don layed out both sides of the issue real well there!

Things have certainly changed at the top levels, there's just no doubt whatsoever about that. And you're so right about what Tillinghast said and felt and wrote regarding a real test of golf. I really like what you said about the fairway sizes being a bogus fix for these problems too!

The difference between him then and us now (us being most golfers) is Tillinghast didn't expect golfers who really didn't have the talent to reach greens in regulation the way most golfers expect to today for some reason. Most golfers today don't have much conception of the tees that suit them either but they expect GIRs to be desgned for them anyway.

Your argument has such an ally in William Flynn you can't believe it. What you said in that post about the dangers of length he said 75 years ago! It was almost as if he was writing it today. The irony is he wrote it in the USGA's green section reports in 1927!

There was something else particularly prescient Flynn wrote about too. That was the USGA inspiring changes in golf courses because the ball was out of control. His answer for that was that the USGA should build about ten championship courses of their own for their tournaments and then they could experiment with the courses all they wanted to.

The interesting thing is he wasn't being in the slightest bit sarcastic--he was dead serious! He was probably even writing that in hopes that they would ask him to build them! And I think we've all heard what he said about the length needed--about 8,000yds!!--maybe even back then!

I predict that Flynn will be the next one to go into the pantheon of the greats! He was a maniac though, and he strongly recommended the use of trees in the strategies of architecture and he was most definitely way ahead of the curve on distance problems!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

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Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2002, 03:07:15 PM »
Tom

Is there any way to access Flynn's USGA reports?  As I recall you also mentioned several months ago a report he did on PV for Crump.  Is that available?

Flynn does sound like a visionary, but so little of his writing is in circulation.  I would love to read more of his stuff.  If possible, you might post some of his things on gca.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tyler Kearns

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Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2002, 04:13:24 PM »
Don,
      what makes a golf course obsolete? when players of all calibers would rather spend a day in the office than play the golf course in question.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

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Re: What makes a course obsolete?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2002, 09:34:59 PM »
The whole premise of obsolete has been the undoing of many great courses worldwide.

When people see a scorecard with many short holes, they often think the course will be too easy.  But I have found that the short holes often give the professionals the most problems.  Witness 10 West at Royal Melbourne.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »

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