[Mike Cirba]

I've only watched a little bit of the tournament so far, but the course looks quite a bit more interesting architecturally than standard PGA tour fare.

What say ye?   Have some here played it?   Is it more Pete Dye or more Greg Norman, or a true collaboration?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Mike,

I haven't gone over to play it, but those that I know who have didn't find anything that would make them want to go back.

A thought from Joe Ogilvie yesterday, "Wind exposes a poor design in golf, like a recession exposes a bad business."

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle,

Interesting...great quote, as well.

[Matt Kardash]

The course they play was designed by Greg Norman. Pete Dye designed the course next door. There was no collaboration.

[Mike Cirba]

Well, so far I'm wrong on two counts!     

Ok.   Back to bed. 

[Mark Saltzman]

I played the Dye (Canyons) Course last year.  I'll have to check my notes to make a more thoughtful post, but from what I can remember there are many very large elevation changes, very wide fairways and I recall an overuse of fairway bunkers.  It was cart mandatory, but it is not a golf course I would ever want to walk.  Not a single hole really stands out in my mind.

I wouldn't rush back.

Mark

[Andy Troeger]

The one guy I know that's played them this year did like the Norman Course where the tournament is held--quite a bit in fact. He wasn't too high on the Dye course.

[Mike Cirba]

From television, I'm not sure I like the faux-Thomas fussiness on the bunker edges, but the convex shaping of the features seems to create some visual and golf interest.

Certainly doesn't look to be the usual "containment" course.

[Jason Topp]

It looks like it would be exceedingly difficult for us but I like it as a tournament venue.

[Ben Sims]

Wyatt Halliday and I gave it go on both courses last August.  I'll sum up the Canyon (Dye) and the Oak (Norman)

Dye Course:

--Open, lots of carries off the tee, unimaginative greens, but some interesting holes.  Easily the weaker of the two courses, though by a small margin.  It is routed over extremely difficult terrain and could have benefited from more dirt moving, IMO.  It's an solid Dye resort course that results in bland cart golf.  About what is expected.

Norman Course:

--Tight as a drum, small convex greens with very interesting bunkering.  Bunkers are deep, penal, and well placed for the most part.  Plus they do a nice aesthetic job of tying-in exposed limestone on places.  Though the edging is busy and a bit jarring.  The greens are fairly flat once you get on them, but fall off on most edges.  Most green complexes are raised significantly above grade.  It's an interesting study because it's on the obviously better land for a golf course and its routed very poorly.  The transitions are brutally long from green to tee.  I like the course as a non-standard tournament venue for the TOUR guys to get beat up on a bit.  But it's nigh unplayable for a guy above a 12 handicap if the wind is up.

[Bruce Wellmon]

Was this the course Sergio was part of the design team with Norman?

[Ben Sims]

Was this the course Sergio was part of the design team with Norman?

Yes.  The Oaks Course.

[Randy Thompson]

Was this the course Sergio was part of the design team with Norman?

Yes.  The Oaks Course.

Ben,
Is long distances between greens and tees the only reason you considered this course a poor routing or where there other factors and if there were could you go into more detail. If the distance alone makes for a poor routing in your opinion, what is an acceptable distance for you. Looking for usefull feedback not trying to put you in a connor!

[Ben Sims]

Ben,
Is long distances between greens and tees the only reason you considered this course a poor routing or where there other factors and if there were could you go into more detail. If the distance alone makes for a poor routing in your opinion, what is an acceptable distance for you. Looking for usefull feedback not trying to put you in a connor!

Randy,

The transition distance is one of the largest factors for me when it comes to routing.  I have never been a fan of "18 individual experiences", though that isn't to say I'm a fan of homogeneity either.  Pine Valley does such a wonderful job of keeping the holes distinct from one another, while providing a closeness between holes that ties it together.

TPC San Antonio Oaks Course does a horrific job of tying the golf course together.  Some tricks they used to keep it together were using long flat par 5's to travel over space.  Pac Dunes--one of my favorite course routings--uses this trick as well.  But Pac also has the benefit of book-ending those long flat par 5's with spectacular holes like 4, 13, and 16.  At The Oaks Course, a hole like #8 is followed by yet another long, skinny, bland par 4.  Another trick they used to tie the golf course together was a cheap excuse for a double green at 2 and 7.  They are connected by a boomerang sliver of green and really have no business being that close together.  It is a marketing ploy, IMHO, and really only serves to consolidate cameras and patrons in one area.

I also think separating nines with a range in between just KILLS the golf course.  There is nothing good about a half mile cart ride in between nines.  You asked what a preferable distance between holes is...I have no idea.  A hard and fast rule on that front has likely been broken by a course that I love, somewhere.  Let's say that a green to tee transition should minimize the break in play, and be of a casual effort to get to the next tee.

[Jim Nelson]

The course bunkers have very busy and ragged edges which don't quite fit my eye.  I've never been to the course, so it's possible the tv and particularly the aerial shots exacerbate the effect. For those who have been there, how do they look in person?

[Kalen Braley]

Ben,

I thought #3 at PD was more interesting than #4.  With the two sets of centerline bunkers and a devilsh green complex, it gets your attention on every shot. Sure 4 is next to the coast line, but it also covers the same flat piece of land that 12 occupies which to me is the least interesting hole on the course.

I also thought #15 was done pretty well with how the driving area pinches down for the long hitters and the cross bunker 50-60 yards short of the green really makes you think about how sure you are when going at the green in two.

[Ben Sims]

The course bunkers have very busy and ragged edges which don't quite fit my eye.  I've never been to the course, so it's possible the tv and particularly the aerial shots exacerbate the effect. For those who have been there, how do they look in person?

In person they look as busy as they do on TV, if that helps. I imagine they will either soften or blend in time. 

[Ben Sims]

Ben,

I thought #3 at PD was more interesting than #4.  With the two sets of centerline bunkers and a devilsh green complex, it gets your attention on every shot. Sure 4 is next to the coast line, but it also covers the same flat piece of land that 12 occupies which to me is the least interesting hole on the course.

I also thought #15 was done pretty well with how the driving area pinches down for the long hitters and the cross bunker 50-60 yards short of the green really makes you think about how sure you are when going at the green in two.

Kalen,

Don't read my post to interpret that 3, 12, and 15 at PD aren't good golf holes.  They are.  But they also serve a purpose beyond just being another hole on the golf course.  They transport the golfer from one piece of interesting land to another.  I disagree about #4 at PD by the way.  That green complex, tucked the way it is near the dune--partially protected on the front left by the dune curling around--is devilish and very fun.  I am not beard puller enough to ignore it being hard against the ocean either. 

[Kalen Braley]

Ben,

I thought #3 at PD was more interesting than #4.  With the two sets of centerline bunkers and a devilsh green complex, it gets your attention on every shot. Sure 4 is next to the coast line, but it also covers the same flat piece of land that 12 occupies which to me is the least interesting hole on the course.

I also thought #15 was done pretty well with how the driving area pinches down for the long hitters and the cross bunker 50-60 yards short of the green really makes you think about how sure you are when going at the green in two.

Kalen,

Don't read my post to interpret that 3, 12, and 15 at PD aren't good golf holes.  They are.  But they also serve a purpose beyond just being another hole on the golf course.  They transport the golfer from one piece of interesting land to another.  I disagree about #4 at PD by the way.  That green complex, tucked the way it is near the dune--partially protected on the front left by the dune curling around--is devilish and very fun.  I am not beard puller enough to ignore it being hard against the ocean either. 

Agreed,

And I wasn't trying to imply that was your claim. 

Furthermore, if a good hole like #12 is the "least" on a course, then that is saying a ton about the rest of the place. You would also be right about the green complex on #4, it is a good one. I just think as an entire "package" from tee to green #3 is better, and I'm not the only one who thinks that!

P.S. So as not to side track this thread, as it is a Norman TPC San Antonio thread, I do wonder about a few of the above comments.  Normally in the tree house we associate, jagged-edge/ rough style bunkers as a good thing...of which I agree.  I'm curious in this case why this is being presented as a "negative" for the Norman course?

[Jim Nelson]

I guess they just look natural, at least on tv, hence my question for those who have seen it in person. It's almost as if they tried too hard. I'm sure there must be a thread that covers bunker forms.  I just don't remember seeing any quite like those at TPC San Antonio.

[Sam Morrow]

I can't remember if I read this or someone told me but Norman wanted the jagged bunker edges to be an extension of the trees around the course.

[Ben Sims]

I guess they just look natural, at least on tv, hence my question for those who have seen it in person. It's almost as if they tried too hard. I'm sure there must be a thread that covers bunker forms.  I just don't remember seeing any quite like those at TPC San Antonio.

Jim,

I feel the same way.  You've got manicured grass around a faux jaggedness.  It's just a bit jarring.  This is my biggest issue with their bunkering though.  Which is a small complaint really.  For the most part, I think it's well positioned and much deeper than what you'd normally find on a "any given weekend" TOUR layout.  Which I like.  It also ties in well with the exposed limestone on holes like #1, #4, #12, and #14.  

[Ben Sims]

I can't remember if I read this or someone told me but Norman wanted the jagged bunker edges to be an extension of the trees around the course.

Mr. Halliday told me this was a selling point that the membership hawkers used. 

[Eric Smith]

I feel the same way.  You've got manicured grass around a faux jaggedness.  It's just a bit jarring.  

Ben,

Firstly, welcome home and thank you for your service to our country.

I haven't yet seen pics of TPC San Antonio, but wonder if what you're describing is at all similar to the bunker edging currently employed at Pine Valley, as seen here in this recent photo Scott Warren snapped at the famous 10th?

[Jim Nelson]

I guess they just look natural, at least on tv, hence my question for those who have seen it in person. It's almost as if they tried too hard. I'm sure there must be a thread that covers bunker forms.  I just don't remember seeing any quite like those at TPC San Antonio.

Jim,

I feel the same way.  You've got manicured grass around a faux jaggedness.  It's just a bit jarring.  This is my biggest issue with their bunkering though.  Which is a small complaint really.  For the most part, I think it's well positioned and much deeper than what you'd normally find on a "any given weekend" TOUR layout.  Which I like.  It also ties in well with the exposed limestone on holes like #1, #4, #12, and #14.  

I meant to say "unnatural". Oops.

  Funny how something halfway between amoeba bunkers and minimalist, both of which seem fine depending on the overall design, are these.  They attempt to be natural, but don't seem quite to have achieved their goal.  

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