[Niall Hay]

2 questions:

1) What are the best "Colt and Alison" designs/courses in North America? Milwaukee, Toronto, Seaside (at least nine), Burning Tree, Country Club of Detroit, Orchard Lake, Kirtland, etc.

2) Also, are there any real Harry Colt courses in North America outside of Toronto? Original CCD (though not the “modern”) Milwaukee, Burning Tree, CDD, Kirtland all Alison designs?

[Matt Bosela]

I think you have to include Hamilton G&CC (Ancaster, ON) in any Colt/Alison conversation. 

Colt certainly did the routing there but I don't think he spent much time on sight during construction, based on the reading I've done on the subject.

[Matt Bosela]

Niall,

Just to add to my post earlier, I did a photo tour of my day at Hamilton here on GCA last spring and included a couple of paragraphs regarding Colt and Alison's involvement.

Here is the link - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44318.0.html

[Niall Hay]

Niall, Old Elm in Chicago is as Colt as Colt gets.  It's a time warp, museum piece that is virtually indistinguishable from his original sketches, which can be found on Ed Odon's great thread with all the sketches...

Thought that Donald Ross was involved there.

[Niall Hay]

What about courses in the US? How do Milwaukee and Burning Tree compare? Kirtland and CCD? Seaside and Orchard Lake?

[Terry Lavin]

Knollwood (recently renovated by Keith Foster) and North Shore (redo by Rick Jacobson) are two other solid C&A designs in Chicagoland.  And I thought they had a hand in Bob O'Link, which is usually credited to Ross.

[Niall Hay]

Which are C&A and which are Alison? Is there a definitive list somewhere?

[Ronald Montesano]

Only one I've played is Park Club in Williamsville, NY.  Ian Andrew can situate it properly.

[jonathan_becker]

Which are C&A and which are Alison? Is there a definitive list somewhere?

Well, I do know that Kirtland is just Alison.  As for a list, I don't know.

[Niall Hay]

I've heard that Kirtland is awesome, and that it was jusy redone.

[jonathan_becker]

It is awesome.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42236.0.html

[Niall Hay]

Wow, those are awesome pictures. Who did the renovation and how true is it to Alison's original design? Is there a Alison specialist out there that does these types of renovations?

[jonathan_becker]

I know that Forse did the work.  Maybe others can provide more insight.

[Tom_Doak]

Wow, those are awesome pictures. Who did the renovation and how true is it to Alison's original design? Is there a Alison specialist out there that does these types of renovations?

Niall:

I don't know how many architects are out there claiming to be "Alison specialists".  Certainly, there aren't as many as there are "Ross specialists", since there are a lot fewer potential clients for Alison re-dos.

I just wanted to take this opportunity to say that all of that is pretty much a charade.  To do a good restoration or a sympathetic renovation of an old course, the only qualifications are that the architect knows how to get things built and shaped so they blend in, and has enough respect for the original architect's work to look carefully at all the old photos and try his best to get it right.

The problem with becoming a "specialist" is that they are sometimes so sure they know what one particular architect "did", that they just plaster their own version of his style over an old course without really paying attention to what had been there before.

There are many talented architects who would do fine restoration work if given the chance.  It would be better for their abilities in the long term if they had the opportunity to work on a bunch of courses by different architects, instead of being pegged as "a Ross guy" or "an Alison guy".

[Niall Hay]

Great insight Tom. Have you played or been to Kirtland? How does it compare to Milwaukee? Sounds like those may be the top Alison courses in the US.

[Paul_Turner]

Which are C&A and which are Alison? Is there a definitive list somewhere?

Niall

It's fairly simple. 

The courses before WW1 are Colt's work (although Alison redesigned a few of them to various degrees:  Pine Valley, Toronto, Hamilton).

The course after WW1 (1920s) are Alison's solo work.  In one case, Detroit, the original Colt course was superseded by a new Alison design.

But of course all the work fell under the "Colt, Alison and Mackenzie/Morrison"  firm.  But I'm not sure how the money was divided up for the projects.

[Niall Hay]

Great stuff. So Milwaukee is a pure Alison as are all but Toronto and the former CCD.

[Niall Hay]

And Hamilton.

[Tom_Doak]

The Country Club of Detroit has a handful of holes [mostly at the beginning of the round, and maybe a couple from their little nine-hole course] that trace their roots back to the Colt routing, but all of the holes from #6 to #15 were built on new ground added when Alison came back after WW I.

Niall, I've never been to Kirtland, or to Burning Tree or The Park Club, but I think I've seen all the others mentioned in this thread.  We have done a bit of work for Milwaukee CC over the past 5-6 years, as well as our recent work at The Country Club of Detroit, which reopens this summer.

[Niall Hay]

What is The Park Club? Where is it?

[Ian Andrew]

What is The Park Club? Where is it?

Williamsville (outskirts of Buffalo)

The Park Club
- Charles Alison design 1927
- hosted 1934 PGA Championship
- still very intact
- very subtle approach but great fun to play

- some minor modifications but fortunately all greens are original
- greens make the course
- grass faced bunkers originally (almost back to that again)

[Ian Andrew]

Hamilton is the best of the two Colts

- routing is intact for the front and most of back
- some spectcacular holes
- 13th (excellent hole) is a 90 degree shift by W. Diddle
- 14th and 15th are altered (1st green of 3rd nine is the old 15th green location)
- I count 8 rebuilt greens
- bunkers are not what they once were either

well worth seeing - Alison consulted there

[Ian Andrew]

Toronto

- the routing is still largely intact (alterations are fairly minor)
- some great holes throughout

- lots of work by Alison (well documented) 6th, 13th, 14th,
- work by Watson was bad (2nd, 3rd, 8th and 16th greens)
- work by Hawtree has made a subtle course ... busy
- greens altered by Hawtree (11th, 14th and 15th) (not bad)
- bunker work looks nothing like Colt

[Ian Andrew]

York Downs

- designed and supervised by Alison (1922)
- built by Stanley Thompson
- NLE (1971)
- can still see what's left in Earl Bales Park
- was considered one of the better courses in the city (but not quite in the class of the other two Colt courses)
- the 12th was one of the more famous holes in Canadian Golf

You can read about the course here:

page 4: http://bp3.blogger.com/_QDoPVOqOUFg/R8XUbWgXD-I/AAAAAAAAB_8/ch2gHpFWQEk/s1600-h/miss4.JPG
Page 5: http://bp2.blogger.com/_QDoPVOqOUFg/R8XVHGgXD_I/AAAAAAAACAE/pZ-yF3gcvRE/s1600-h/miss5.JPG

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Niall,

  To the best of my knowledge, Burning Tree was originally an Alison design (under the banner of Colt, Alison, Mackenzie).  Some have improperly credited it a Mackenzie.  I believe, and I might be mistaken, it was constructed by the Flynn & Toomey Construction Company.  

Several of the holes west of the clubhouse (10,11,12,13,14) were impacted by the Beltway.

Arthur Hills did work there at some point in the past 10-20 years.  Obviously, it is a lot different now.  It's a club with a great atmosphere and a lot of history.  The historic aerials website goes back to 1949 and shows more bunkers in existence than today, as well as long bunkering on one side of the fairway on many holes.

(Off architecture, but especially fun is looking at the photos from the early 1960s and the slides of the Beltway in progress of being built)

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