Lee Trevinon on AGNC

[Ronald Montesano]

Garland...none of the cool kids were using 7 and 9 woods back then, so that's that...

Bashers...Being Mexican-American was similar to being African-American in the American south in Lee's day...certainly an uncomfortable birthright that would have made appearing at Augusta an awkward proposal...

Supporters...Lee has always run his mouth, most times for its entertainment, some times to his detriment. He was very honest about his disdain for Augusta and never once made an effort to reconcile.

Cool holes versus Great Holes...Discuss, amigos

I think that 14 is a great hole, because of the green...it forces you to position your tee ball for the proper second shot in...mind you, that's from television and print exposure only, having never been there in person.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have had the good fortune to hear Lee tell me his thoughts on being Mexican American on tour, design, his place in history, and a lot of other things.  Based on knowing him a bit, I would say that assuming he can't separate his thoughts on design from other thoughts is just plain wrong, but then again, perhaps knowing him a little isn't a much better place to judge his comments than not knowing him at all.

Besides that, there are lots of others, pros and otherwise, who don't believe ANGC is a technically great golf course from a design perspective.  Lee may just be outspoken enough (and not at all concerned with being invited back) that he would voice them.  IMHO, the humbly gracious comments most pros say come from fear of having their invitation lost in the mail somehow.

As always, I could be wrong.

[JESII]

Another perspective is that he won at Shoal Creek, didn't he?

[David_Tepper]

I must admit I find many of the responses on threads of this type (where a tour pro makes a mildly "controversial" statement) to be rather interesting. It seems like more people are interested in discussing the motivations behind the pro's comment than the validity of what has actually been said.

In this case, Lee Trevino has:

1) likely played more golf than anyone on this board
2) likely played more golf courses than anyone on this board
3) certainly played better golf than anyone on this board 
4) likely played more rounds at AGNC than anyone on this board

Could we at least entertain the possibility that Trevino might actually have some valid points to make? Do we really think that Trevino only views the game of golf thru his personal experience?

Does anyone not think that their perspective and appreciation of ANGC has not been deeply colored by watching the the Masters on TV each year? Does anyone think that, if ANGC had never hosted the Masters, the course would be as highly regarded as it is today?         

[Dan Smoot]

 am almost sorry that I injected my long standing thoughts that there may have something more than the golf course behind Trevino's feelings about ANGC.  Trevino strikes me as the type of person that would take on the worlds best golfers anywhere at anytime even if it meant playing in a Walmart parking lot and nothing would keep him away.  Let's just leave it at that.

Although I have never seen the course for myself, what I love about Augusta are the greens, the risk reward options, the back nine drama, the opportunity to go low (as it used to be), the penalties that come when the pressure of going for it overcomes the player's ability in the moment, the approach shots and the spring time beauty when the country hasn't quite emerged from winter.  I love the shorter par 5's, a fantastic 150 yard par 3, the 14th that doesn't need bunkering, the ninth green slope, the swinging drive around the corner or the pine straw right on 13, the potentially horrible miss left on 10 and the left pin position on 11. 

What I don't like about Augusta is ANGC's need to defend par.  I understand the need for lengthening to keep the shot making intentions of the original design and not have short irons into every hole.  I don't understand the extra rough and the additional trees.  We don't need an additional USGA event.  If there is something that I have learned from people on this site is how a great golf hole can wide, not especially long, be devoid of rough and still present plenty of strategic challenge even for the best players in the world.

I think the course is a little better than Trevino gives credit to.

[Jim Nugent]

Did any specific event(s) take place, that made Lee feel unwelcome at ANGC?  Was he treated more poorly than other pro's there? 

[MikeJones]

I remember reading in one of his autobiographies that he had issues with the way that the whole Masters tournament was run and that ANGC  didn't suit his natural shape or flight of shot. I'm pretty sure he would have done a lot better if he hadn't talked himself out of playing well before each time he tee'd it up there.

I would say that in this case his criticism isn't coming from an entirely objective point of view.

[Carl Rogers]

Had the hybrid club been invented in his heday and the 60* wedge, he might have played more effeectively and thus changed his attitude.

Hybrid, shmybrid. The modern hybrid is for all intents and purposes yesteryears 7 and 9 woods.

I think Trevino's case is different.  The higher ball flight would have helped him more than others.
I can not speak for the game of a hall of famer, but for me a 21 degree hybrid is a more consistent club than a 7 wood.

My larger point is that attitude effects results at whatever skill level.

[Chris Buie]

I was very surprised to find out that Trevino could hit it right to left and really long when he wanted to.  I personally saw him do as much one day - all day - against Andy Bean.  He was out driving Bean in the early 80's when Bean was one of the biggest hitters on tour.  It was the most amazing display I've ever seen - and I saw all the guys of that era - and most from later eras - up close.
Obviously he was a phenomenal talent to take down Nicklaus in his prime as many times as he did.  Without a doubt he had the talent to win at ANGC.  The culture of Augusta just did not agree with him. It is pretty elementary really. ANGC represented the anti-thesis of his hardscrabble youth and he never bridged the gap he perceived between those two sharply contrasting worlds.  So he had a serious chip on his shoulder about the ultra exclusive place, the world of privilege, etc.  He never got over that even though Nicklaus and Cliff Roberts went out of their way to personally discuss the matter with him.  It's understandable - but a pity we didn't get to see him have a full blooded go at that tournament.  I'm pretty sure he would have won it at least once if he hadn't been hung up about the peripherals.
Well, that's my read on the matter anyway.

[Travis Dewire]

low ball hitter....must have been tough for him

Tough tee ball on 13 hitting a fade. What makes this the greatest par 5 in the world???

Did Trevino ever boycott the Masters because of the club's or tournaments treatment of Hispanics? I'm almost certain there was a tournament that Lee had boycotted for this reason exactly. Please let me know if you know any more. Thanks

[Travis Dewire]

http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Trevino_Lee.html

type into google, trevino boycott masters, many old articles with quotes of him

[Will MacEwen]

I get that Lee didn't like the ANGC style, and it made him uncomfortable, etc.  I'm kind of surprised that he didn't use that as motivation to stick it to them.  I'm sure in his day Lee visited some country clubs where he didn't fit in or feel comfortable and walked out with a pocket full of cash.

[JESII]

I must admit I find many of the responses on threads of this type (where a tour pro makes a mildly "controversial" statement) to be rather interesting. It seems like more people are interested in discussing the motivations behind the pro's comment than the validity of what has actually been said.

In this case, Lee Trevino has:

1) likely played more golf than anyone on this board
2) likely played more golf courses than anyone on this board
3) certainly played better golf than anyone on this board 
4) likely played more rounds at AGNC than anyone on this board

Could we at least entertain the possibility that Trevino might actually have some valid points to make? Do we really think that Trevino only views the game of golf thru his personal experience?

Does anyone not think that their perspective and appreciation of ANGC has not been deeply colored by watching the the Masters on TV each year? Does anyone think that, if ANGC had never hosted the Masters, the course would be as highly regarded as it is today?         

David,

He said it's not a great course. Is there one other person who would agree with that? I'd be happy to discuss what he actually said, but he's not here to explain it. I don't know where you draw the line of greatness, but is there any doubt Augusta is in the top 50 courses in the world? I wouldn't think so. Top 20, maybe debateable, but that seems well within anyone's description of greatness IMO.

[David_Tepper]

"He said it's not a great course. Is there one other person who would agree with that?"

Jim Sullivan -

Johnny Miller might.

But do you think AGNC would be anywhere as highly regarded as it is if it was not on TV every year hosting the Masters?

DT

[Kevin Lynch]

Was Augusta National really the only club that Trevino played that had an "elitist" atmosphere?   Didn't he win tournaments at other blue-blood courses?  If so, why was he able to set aside those differences at other venues but not at Augusta?

I don't really know the answer, but thought I'd add it as a consideration of whether Trevino was able to separate his personal feelings vs. the quality of the Golf Architecture. 

I don't know the culture of Winged Foot, Baltusrol, or Medinah (the other courses he named as greats), but do you think he felt those places were warm to Mexican-Americans?

[jeffwarne]

"He said it's not a great course. Is there one other person who would agree with that?"

Jim Sullivan -

Johnny Miller might.

But do you think AGNC would be anywhere as highly regarded as it is if it was not on TV every year hosting the Masters?

DT

Do you think ANGC would be on TV every year hosting The Masters if it weren't highly regarded?

We can debate silly hypothetical questions all day long.
Trevino won at shoal Creek-the bastion of racial southern charm
How warmly do you think they were welcoming Trevino at Westchester or Winged Foot?
and I'm not so sure he wasn't treated warmly at ANGC.
trevino contended in his first masters and yes the course does favor a certain type of player.
(as did the Old US Open setups)

It just so happens it also favors the dominant player of every era,and that gap only grew wider for players WHO PLAYED THERE EVERY YEAR and continued the learning process of the course.
trevino exercised his perogative not to play there. He doesn't have to explain that.
He's entitled to his opinion on the course; it's just that many don't agree with him.
I certainly don't.
I'm not sure being a TOUR player makes you an expert in evaluating architecture, based on the crap and setups we see most weeks.

[Andy Stamm]

Was Augusta National really the only club that Trevino played that had an "elitist" atmosphere?   Didn't he win tournaments at other blue-blood courses?  If so, why was he able to set aside those differences at other venues but not at Augusta?

I don't really know the answer, but thought I'd add it as a consideration of whether Trevino was able to separate his personal feelings vs. the quality of the Golf Architecture. 

I don't know the culture of Winged Foot, Baltusrol, or Medinah (the other courses he named as greats), but do you think he felt those places were warm to Mexican-Americans?

Another poster mentioned that Trevino won a PGA at Shoal Creek without explanation. I think what he meant was that this is an example of a club where, if he felt out of place at Augusta for reasons of race and class, he would have felt out of place there, too. Yet, he played great and won.

Not to get into it, but the club was not known to be open and hospitable to minorities.

[Mike Hendren]

I followed Trevino closely as a teenager and my father adored him.  I think my dad related because he grew up dirt poor as well.  Ironically, my father has always been uncomfortable in nicer social situations - I saw the panic on his face years ago when Senator Lamar Alexander stepped into an elevator to the suites at Vandy's stadium wearing a blazer.  My father immediately thought he should have worn one as well.  Even on the grounds of Augusta National Golf Club during the 1989 practice grounds it took my father a while to relax. 

To this day I'm a little uncomfortable attending events or playing golf at a very exclusive country club in Nashville.  Nobody has ever been anything other than gracious to me or my father and I suspect that's the case with  Trevino.  He simply wasn't comfortable at Augusta.  I get that. 

As for his ability, I saw him hit a big draw over the driving range fence at Augusta on the first try after being chided by other players about bounding his low cuts into that same fence.  He had plenty in reserve.

I always found his wit to have an uncomfortable edge to it.  I'm a huge fan.

[Matt_Ward]

Look guys players have a tendency to rationalize plenty -- they don't look inward first. It's always someone or somebody or something else -- not them.

I have interviewed Lee and he's quite the sort. In terms of golf's alltime shotmakers Lee is at the top of the list or at worst 2nd or 3rd.

The sad part is that the ultimate con guy who could play suckers at Tenison with a Dr. Pepper bottle was just bamboozled with ANGC. His best finish was 10th in 1975 and I never heard anything from Lee that said he was treated any differently than any other player when competing at The Masters.

Lee just let things creep into his head -- no other than Nicklaus himself said that Lee could win anywhere -- including Augusta. I guess Lee never believed that.

Last thing -- the idea that Lee could not handle hitting draws at ANGC when needed is absolutely silly -- the man could produce any shot at anytime. Case closed on that front.

[Kenny Baer]

Wow, big news; he has only been saying that for 40+ years

[Matthew Petersen]

Was Augusta National really the only club that Trevino played that had an "elitist" atmosphere?   Didn't he win tournaments at other blue-blood courses?  If so, why was he able to set aside those differences at other venues but not at Augusta?

I don't really know the answer, but thought I'd add it as a consideration of whether Trevino was able to separate his personal feelings vs. the quality of the Golf Architecture. 

I don't know the culture of Winged Foot, Baltusrol, or Medinah (the other courses he named as greats), but do you think he felt those places were warm to Mexican-Americans?

I have no idea whether his struggles with Augusta/The Masters have anything to do with the club or not, but the above doesn't seem like a great comparison. A PGA Tour event is a PGA Tour event wherever it's played. The Masters has a culture and feeling all its own that is clearly very different from other tour stops, or even majors that are run by the big national organizations.

[George Pazin]

Pine Valley made it to the top of the rankings with damn near zero tv exposure. There's no obvious reason to believe ANGC wouldn't be extremely highly regarded with no tourneys played there, if it is that good. Me, I'd guess it is.

Off the top of my head, I think damn near every hole is great, though I don't care for the rough and the stretching of 7 & 11 & 18. Are they each world class? Can't say I could tell. But they sure look to play great to this observer. Each one looks damn fun and damn interesting.

In many ways, ANGC is much closer to the mythical ideal (great for all levels of golfer) than a lot of other courses that populate the top 10 or 25 or whatever.

Might Lee Buck be right? Sure, I suppose it's possible. Pretty unlikely, though - it would mean almost everyone else is wrong.

As an aside, I believe Rich Goodale once shared a terrific tale of Lee hitting big sweeping hooks, if anyone can find it...

All jmho, dammit.

[Rick Shefchik]

I put ANGC on my bucket list more for its history than its architecture, but I don't think I could be convinced that 12, 13, 15 and 16 aren't great holes. Throw in 2, 5, 8, 9, 10 and 11, for that matter, as exceptionally good holes. I've been to the Masters and seen the holes, and while Lee has played them, I can't imagine what left him so unimpressed.

[Phil Benedict]

I put ANGC on my bucket list more for its history than its architecture, but I don't think I could be convinced that 12, 13, 15 and 16 aren't great holes. Throw in 2, 5, 8, 9, 10 and 11, for that matter, as exceptionally good holes. I've been to the Masters and seen the holes, and while Lee has played them, I can't imagine what left him so unimpressed.

16 has a terrible green in the sense that there are only two basic pin locations - one really easy and the other really hard.  I think Augusta has a lot of greens with low spots that are easy to get to and high spots that are almost impossible to get close to.  To some extent the excitement on Sundays always seems a little contrived to me because they put the pins in the low spots on holes like 13, 14 and 16.

[George Pazin]

16 has a terrible green in the sense that there are only two basic pin locations - one really easy and the other really hard.  I think Augusta has a lot of greens with low spots that are easy to get to and high spots that are almost impossible to get close to.  To some extent the excitement on Sundays always seems a little contrived to me because they put the pins in the low spots on holes like 13, 14 and 16.

Aren't 4 different locations on 16 used during The Masters? Short right, medium right, middle-ish, back left? And at any rate, many writers/architects/thinkers seem to feel it isn't bad to have a testing nature on a par 3 hole, given the approach is from the tee.

I love 13 & 14 with pretty much any pin. I thought pretty much everyone did, 'cept maybe you and Lee...