[BCrosby]

Sean writes:

"I would think that length increases difficulty, but has no bearing on whether a hole is penal or not."

If difficulty has no bearing on whether a hole is 'penal' or not, what does have a bearing? Is there such a thing as an easy penal hole? Asked another way, in what sense does the term 'penal holes' as used in this thread differ from the term 'hard holes'?

Maybe another way to get at the same issue is to ask what is the opposite of 'penal' as used here? 'Non-penal' does not count as an answer.   

Bob

[Sean_A]

Sean writes:

"I would think that length increases difficulty, but has no bearing on whether a hole is penal or not."

If difficulty has no bearing on whether a hole is 'penal' or not, what does have a bearing? Is there such a thing as an easy penal hole? Asked another way, in what sense does the term 'penal holes' as used in this thread differ from the term 'hard holes'?

Maybe another way to get at the same issue is to ask what is the opposite of 'penal' as used here? 'Non-penal' does not count as an answer.   

Bob

Bob

A penal hole is defined by its lack of choices; one choice of play being the most penal on the continuum.  While the length of a forced carry may increase or decrease the difficulty, it doesn't alter the nature of the hole.  Its the ability of golfers that shifts, not the definition for penal.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean writes:

"I would think that length increases difficulty, but has no bearing on whether a hole is penal or not."

If difficulty has no bearing on whether a hole is 'penal' or not, what does have a bearing? Is there such a thing as an easy penal hole? Asked another way, in what sense does the term 'penal holes' as used in this thread differ from the term 'hard holes'?

Maybe another way to get at the same issue is to ask what is the opposite of 'penal' as used here? 'Non-penal' does not count as an answer.   

Bob

Bob

A penal hole is defined by its lack of choices; one choice of play being the most penal on the continuum.  While the length of a forced carry may increase or decrease the difficulty, it doesn't alter the nature of the hole.  Its the ability of golfers that shifts, not the definition for penal.

Ciao

Sean... I agree with your definition of "Penal".

However, with a Par-3, I think that other "penal" (i.e. the difficulty of recovering from the hazards) has to also be taken in to an equation... Because let's face it - there are very few choices. You tee from the same distance and angle and try and hit the same target on every par-3, give or take wind and some firm conditions. Therefore the difficulty should be considered in the equation.

Anyway, choice and difficulty can be intertwined: A 25 yard deep green with water tight short and tight long can be held easily with a 9 iron but becomes near impossible with a 3-iron. There is less of a choice of shot (perfection being required) and a big penalty for missing it.

[BCrosby]

Sean - Thinking out loud with you here. You write:

"A penal hole is defined by its lack of choices;..."

That is the usual definition. But I don't think it is helpful. The 'lack of choices' boils down to an architect demanding that a player execute a certain shot. But isn't a hole with a 'lack of choices' just a fancy way to saying the hole is hard? Doesn't building a hole without choices amount to building a hole with hazards and difficulties so arranged that you are required to play to certain spots? And if you fail to do so - you are in big trouble. That is, a penal hole (by the definition of 'penal') is going to be a hard hole.
 
Note that if the arrangement of hazards are such that playing choices are possible, you have a hole that is at once not penal and easier (at least for the average player).

What I am driving at is that the term 'penal' sheds little light about a hole. What sheds much more light is to use terms like 'hard' or 'difficult'. In part because they come closer to what is really going on. But more importantly because those everyday terms exist on an easy to understand continuum that runs from hard to easy and back again.

Which takes me back to one of my original questions. Is there such a thing as an easy penal hole? My guess is no, there is no such animal. By definition. It would follow that the phrase 'hard penal hole' is redundant. All of which suggests that there are problems with that age-old architectural terminology.

Bob

[Mark Saltzman]

Bob,

Sorry, but I am having a bit of trouble following your logic.  So a penal hole is one without choices?  And a hole without choices is thus a hard hole?  I'm not sure I get this.  I think penal is defined by the cost of making a mistake.  I think that one could have a fairly easy hole (say a 100 yard island green) but it still be very penal.  On the other hand, one could have a very hard hole (at least in relation to par, but have it not be penal) - something like a flat, wide open 250 yard par 3.

To me, penal is not as much about how easy (or hard) it is to make par on the hole.  The key to penal is when you miss the green, how much of a penalty do you pay?  That is why I posted the 13th at Wolf Point.  If you miss the green there, for most players they are looking at 5 or X.

I'm not sure I've made this any more clear (even in my own mind) and thus maybe you're right in saying we should just stick to "easy to hard"

Mark

[BCrosby]

Mark -

What makes a hole one that is without choices? The positioning of hazards so that play is dictated by those hazards to designated spots. That is also a good working definition of a hard hole. Miss the designated spots and you pay a heavy price.

Which suggests that 'penal' holes are all 'hard' holes. Let me put that differently. There could be hard holes that aren't penal, but there are no penal holes that aren't hard.

My suggestion is to use terms like 'hard' to describe such holes. It carries less baggage, is more precise and has many useful antomyms like 'easy'. Terms like 'penal' have no such antonyms.

Bob

[BCrosby]

Mark -

Rereading your post, I failed to address one of your points.

"I think penal is defined by the cost of making a mistake."

I don't agree. Making a mistake on a strategically designed hole can be, and often is, more catastrophic than a mistake on a what people call a 'penal' hole'.

Sean has the definition of 'penal' mostly right. Penal holes are usually distinguished by the absence of playing choices. (Though as noted above, I think that is not a helpful framework for thinking about the difficulties (or lack thereof) of holes.)

Bob  

[Lou_Duran]

Richard,

You're mostly right about PD's 14; that's where my wheels started coming off in my match with Reef and I shanked my 9-iron.  In prior rounds, I've hit it right and made double.  But in my final round on Monday afternoon, I punched a little 8-iron into the 10 mph W/SW wind to 15' and made my only putt of the Bandon trip.  One can miss left and it is a short hole so, it can't be my most penal.

I have a bit of a brief but infrequent history with CPC's #16, taking enough total strokes that would suggest more than double the rounds that I've actually played.  But the difficulty of the hole is more due to its reputation and the silly rule, in my humble opinion, that the ocean is a part of the course (no boundaries allowing a drop where it crossed).

My candidates for most penal par 3s are all from the great state of Texas: #2 Austin CC; # 4 Horseshoe Bay Resort- Ram Rock; #15 The Cliffs at Possum Kingdom.  Honorable Mention goes to #s 12 and 17 at Stonebridge Ranch CC (Dye).  All have water guarding the greens, wind and elevation change affecting club selection, and difficult green complexes often draining into the water features.  Length is a factor, but the tightness created by the water is the defining feature.  Sorry I don't know how to post pictures, but they wouldn't do justice anyways to just how terrifying these holes are, particularly in competition.   

[Thomas McQuillan]

anyone added the 4th at royal county down?

[Carl Nichols]

Carl:

The topic of this thread is "most penal" -- the 8th at Wolf Creek only rewards the best of the best approaches. The slightest pull and it's wet -- the slightest push and it can be a quick reload. Laying up is no bargain either.

In sum -- it can be a three or put it in your pocket type hole.

Best thing about it -- is that the more forward tees do enhance playability -- only those who feel the need for a challenge should be back at the tips.

I know.  But you have said many times that you think Wolf Creek is a great course, and I'm trying to figure out how #8 and its difficulty fits into that overall assessment. 

[Jim Franklin]

8 at Wolf Creek gets my vote too. No bailout, water both sides. PENAL. #5 at PV is a close second as the only bailout is short plus the green is lightning quick so if you are above the hole, good luck. At least the green at Wolf Creek is not severely tilted.

[Sean_A]

Sean - Thinking out loud with you here. You write:

"A penal hole is defined by its lack of choices;..."

That is the usual definition. But I don't think it is helpful. The 'lack of choices' boils down to an architect demanding that a player execute a certain shot. But isn't a hole with a 'lack of choices' just a fancy way to saying the hole is hard? Doesn't building a hole without choices amount to building a hole with hazards and difficulties so arranged that you are required to play to certain spots? And if you fail to do so - you are in big trouble. That is, a penal hole (by the definition of 'penal') is going to be a hard hole.
 
Note that if the arrangement of hazards are such that playing choices are possible, you have a hole that is at once not penal and easier (at least for the average player).

What I am driving at is that the term 'penal' sheds little light about a hole. What sheds much more light is to use terms like 'hard' or 'difficult'. In part because they come closer to what is really going on. But more importantly because those everyday terms exist on an easy to understand continuum that runs from hard to easy and back again.

Which takes me back to one of my original questions. Is there such a thing as an easy penal hole? My guess is no, there is no such animal. By definition. It would follow that the phrase 'hard penal hole' is redundant. All of which suggests that there are problems with that age-old architectural terminology.

Bob

Bob

To me saying a hole is difficult or hard doesn't convey the meaning of a hole because those are sliding terms depending on one's ability.  When used properly, "penal" does convey a sense of the character of a hole.  For good players, yes, there are fairly easy penal holes.  Isn't that why fairways have been allowed to be narrowed even on penal holes?  I might think 40 yard fairways lined with bunkers (a penal hole) is difficult whereas a pro may think its not so difficult - being used to 30-35 (and often less) yard wide fairways lined with hazards.  Its a matter of perspective that I admit is rather skewed by the top end (in the main touring pros) of golfers.  In any case, I will stick with penal as a descriptor of a style of architecture because it makes absolute sense when the term is properly understood and used.   

Ciao

[George Freeman]

I played Kinglsey a handful of times a few summers ago and found the 9th hole more difficult/penal than the 2nd.  Maybe it was the specific tee/pin combination on 9 that day - it was brutal.  I really enjoyed the 2nd and became enemies with the 9th.

You know, I've had the opposite experience and fared slightly better there than on the 2nd, but you're right, it may be more penal, in that if you miss the green you've got your hands full.

I'm with you, Brian.  Last summer I played #9 at 1 under in a few rounds.  I've never made anything less than a 5 at #2.  It has gotten to the point where I am a complete mental trainwreck on the tee.

I too would agree.  #2 is just so demanding from the tee, whereas you have a little more room to maneuver on #9, especially from the south tees.  I would say it is easier to make a 4 on #9 than it is on #2.  #9 will spit out the occasional X on your scorecard, but I would say on average, scores tend to be higher on #2.  Despite their difficulty, both holes are a blast to play (as opposed to many on this thread??).

[JohnH]

11th at The Old Course.

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