How many great modern European Courses.

[Jonathan Davison]

Ally Mcintosh's recently post on modern European Architects got me thinking....... How many great or even good courses have been designed in Europe in the last 30 years.

I would personally like to see Budersand - Rolf Stephan Hansen's project, Spogard & Vandervaart's project in Holland, Golfbaan De Stippelberg and Frank Pont's work at Turfvaert, after this I am struggling......

I enjoyed parts from The Castle and only saw Machrihanish Dunes during construction.

[Mark Pearce]

Jonathan,

From all reports Castle Stuart must belong in the conversation.  I'd also expect to see The Renaissance Club at least mentioned, too.

How far do you go back for modern?  The American lists use 1960 as the cut-off, which would, of course, bring loads of courses into the mix (Loch Lomond, Valderrama).  From your post I'm assuming you are limiting it to the past few years?

Mark

[George Freeman]

I haven't played it, but from everything I've read and heard, Kingsbarns should be part of this conversation as well.

[Jonathan Davison]

Sorry, I forget to mention designed by European Architects.

[Jonathan Davison]

Mark
Your post highlights the issue, Loch Lomond, Renaissance, Castle Stuart, & Kingsbarn all designed by Americans. You can even add Valderamma, but nothing by any European Designers. Why ?

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Haven't played either of these two, but they seem to do quite well in magazine rankings.

El Saler by Javier Arana.
The European by Pat Ruddy

[Jonathan Davison]

Donal.
Never played either, but they look good courses.

I haven't played it, but Skibo Castle looks interesting.

Europe must have some more?
It seems that when I think of something interesting its an American or Aussie Architect.

Anybody played Thomas Himmel's Son Gaul or Stadler's Fohr Golf Club ?
 

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan,

I well remember that when I spent a day at Woburn with Donald Steel, back in 1982, just how little construction he was doing to build the Duchess course.  I think the entire construction budget was something like 350,000 pounds ... all he was building were greens and a handful of fairway bunkers, and putting in irrigation for greens and tees.  And that project was a relatively big deal back then!

It was quite a shock after having worked at Long Cove the summer before -- and Long Cove was a relatively minimalist project for Mr. Dye.

I think that's part of the reason that few European architects built great courses for a long period -- expectations were low, and budgets were VERY slim.  And then when new money came into the picture, there weren't many European architects who had any experience in spending money to build something more extravagant, so the clients went to Americans who had that experience.  [Note, too, that most of the projects you first thought of as being special -- Kingsbarns, Renaissance, and Castle Stuart -- were all DEVELOPED by Americans.  Nor is Mr. Patino a European.] 

Indeed, David Kidd only broke through that barrier by having success in America first, which put him into a different peer group in potential clients' minds.  It is one thing to have talent, and another for clients to be confident that you can deploy it effectively.  Most of the guys you've mentioned just don't have enough work in the ground to be past that hurdle.

[Jonathan Davison]

Tom,

Ok I understand your comments regarding budgets and expectations, but older guy's such as Colt, Mackenzie & Park Jnr built great courses with virtually nothing. And doesn't Donald Steel's creation at Woburn echo your minialistic thoughts?

Also say the last 10 years or so, we have seen a number of high profile projects with huge budgets and nothing really spectacular. Ok we have seen some nice courses with excellent construction, but still nothing wow. Sometimes I feel many European Designer's have become to rigid, almost too sensible. I wonder if they are afraid to break the mode, to offer something different. I can't think of any projects which don't have USGA spec greens, I can't think of any projects which have spent time and effort adding the extra detail - which can be seen at somewhere like Castle Stuart for example. I understand it comes down to budgets, but sometimes a little bit of common sense can help, why build USGA spec greens at £30,000 per green when other alternatives are available? Why spend a huge portion of the construction budget on greens, when it can be used on some detailed work on bunkers or it can be used to have a full time on site architect there to ensure a more interesting project.
 
A recent project which I think ticks some of the boxes is Sand Valley in Poland, I can see a huge amount of care and attention to the details to the overall feel to the project.

[Rory Connaughton]

Jonathon

 Not sure if you are counting GB&I here but certainly a lot of good links were either built or significantly refined/enhanced in Ireland in the last 30 years.  TEC, Portmarnock Links, Enniscrone, Carne among others.

[Chris Roselle]

I too would include the European Club on this list as well as Old Head Golf Links in Kinsale.

[Jonathan Davison]

Rory & Chris,

I think Portmarnock Links was designed by American Stan Eby and Old Head by Ron Kirby, I was looking for courses designed by European Architects, but certainly European Club.

[Rory Connaughton]

Carne
revised Enniscrone

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

If you consider the big-budget courses constructed in Ireland in the last 25 years, the majority of them have been designed by well known architects from abroad. Developers have not been willing to take risks with lesser known architects.

The American market is very important to the Irish golf industry, so it was a natural choice for many of these developers to choose American architects such as RTJ Snr. (Ballybunion New, Adare Manor), Nicklaus (Mount Juliet), Palmer (K-Club, Tralee), O'Meara (Carton). Nicklaus was also involved in the re-development of St. Patrick's in Donegal. It's important that the architect is well known and Irish developers have only considered the signature names up to now. I don't see that changing.

In recent years, we've seen non-American architects getting a bigger slice of the pie, with Norman (Doonbeg), Montgomerie (Carton), Eby (US) with Langer (Portmarnock Links), Faldo (Lough Erne), etc. getting a look in.

Pat Ruddy and Christy O'Connor have been quite prolific in the last 20 years, working on jobs at existing golf clubs, or smaller scale developments.

I'm pretty sure an architect as talented as Eddie Hackett wasn't seriously considered for any of these big projects in the 80s and 90s. Hackett even advised a developer to seek a big name, rather than choose himself, if the developer wanted to guarantee commercial success.

[Adam Lawrence]

Carton House O'Meara was designed by Tim Lobb when he was at EGD. Tim's an Aussie, but he's been over here for long enough that he counts as an honorary Brit, I reckon.

Really EGD and Faldo are the only European firms that can compete for the genuine big money projects [edit in response to Mark's post: maybe Hawtrees as well sometimes]

[Mark Pearce]

There will, of course, be Trump Aberdeen!

[Jonathan Davison]

Adam,

I don't think we need huge budgets to create interesting courses or great courses.

I guess out of everybody Adam, you must have seen more new golf developments than most of us?? Which courses stand out in your opinion?
I am not saying there are bad courses, but not enough courses which stand out, I could be wrong.

[Niall C]

Jonathan

In terms of the amount of material shifted, how would you rate your (Ford Golf Design) courses in Prague and Warsaw ? Do they count as big budget ?

And if you can repress your natural modesty, where would you rank them with other recent European designs ?

Niall

[Jonathan Davison]

Niall

Both sites were flat, basically nothing and both projects had an underground water table.. so not the easiest projects. Both built for small budgets. We are very happy with both projects, we have done some interesting features.

What I want to learn from this post is:
1. What are European Architects doing different?
2. Why do we lose projects to overseas Architects?
3. Do European Architects not market their projects as well as the overseas Architects?
4. Are the developers influenced by consultants ?

When I initially think of good modern courses, the usual spring to mind Kingsbarn etc.... I couldn't think of many good modern courses designed by Europeans.. The UK saw a huge number of courses built in the early 90's and not many interest me or maybe I just don't know about them.
Maybe there is a number of good modern courses, maybe I just don't know about them.... but this means If I don't know about them how many developers know about them, and how many golfers know about them.
I keep discussing Sand Valley in Poland, here is a good example.. it looks so interesting, it looks fun...I am sure it was designed and built for a small budget, but I wouldnt know about the project if it wasnt for this website, and I have spent the last 3 years traveling around Poland. Ok, I think Tony Ristola is American but it shows that good work can be built for a modest budget.

[Steve Okula]

I nominate Dave Thomas (UK) for his great work at San Roque in Spain, Terre Blanche in France, and Nobilis in Turkey, and he probably has numerous others I haven't seen that are just as good.

[Niall C]

Jon

I note you shied away from answering the question on how the Prague course and your Warsaw course compare to say the Sand Valley project you refer to. Haven't seen your Warsaw course (yet) but the Prague City course is a long way from the Donald Steel course TD referenced. I might be biased but Prague City is a course I would love to play.

To answer your questions on why not more recognition and work for European architects, I suspect that as TD referred to American based GCA's tended to get bigger commisions and shifted more dirt. Bigger budgets equal better courses in a lot of peoples eyes, and if you are going to spend a big budget you choose someone with a track record of coping with it. Maybe its just as simple as that.

Maybe also its about exposure, and perhaps it would help if you wrote a book. Not being entirely facetious when I say that. As an aside, something else I would like to see on this site is perhaps a thread similar to Getting to Know... with purely gca's that are part of this site. They would be able to showcase their work and discuss their influences and aspirations. With respect to Tom Doak, I think I've got a fair idea what he's about, not that I suggesting that he should be rationed in anyway, but I would love to see threads on other GCA's. Do you fancy being the first ?

Steve,

Funnily enough Dave Thomas and his son Paul were someone I was thinking of but while I've played San Roque perhaps half a dozen times and enjoy the course, I hesitate to call it great. Very good, and certainly solid, but not sure its great. Also not a big fan of their present bunkering style, either aesthetically or how they play. There was a thread on a more recent course that they did at Aviemore in Scotland called Spey Valley. Again played it a few times and like it but theres a couple of bits to me where it looks as though its been done purely off plan whereas someone on site would have tweaked the design to make it work much better IMHO.

Niall

[Frank Pont]

Jonathan,

First one of they key differences might be the landscapes in which we build most of our golf courses in Europe. Some of the top courses which were built in the world had fantastic scenery and landscapes to begin with. Most of my projects are with completely flat agricultural land, and then I still feel very fortunate that almost all of them are on sand rather than on clay or peat (on which most of the heavily populated urban areas in Holland lie). I am not alone as many others can tell.  Stephan was very very lucky to get a former dunes area that had been destroyed as a military base and was allowed to turn it back into dunes. He did a fantastic job from what I’ve seen in pictures, but if he’s unlucky it might be the last time he works in the dunes in his life…. I was lucky to do restoration work in the dunes at Royal Hague and Kennemer and build a new par 3 at Cruden Bay right on the beach, but again I estimate my chances of ever building a links course in the dunes as lower than winning the lottery.

The second difference is the lack of sophistication of the market. On the continent most golfers would not have a clue of how a great golf course should look, and most have never played on a classic Colt/Simpson/Fowler/MacKenzie course. Emphasis has been on raising supply side of the equation by building lots of golf courses like Tom described; 18 greens, a couple of green bunkers and flat fairways plus a few artificial ponds. In some sense not so different to what happened in the US in the 1950 to 1970 period. Most of my clients are farmers who want to quit farming and know very little to nothing about golf. It means I have to sit down with them and educate them and also think along with them what the best kind of design of golf course would be to make their investment return money.

Third, sorry to be blunt, many of the European architects are just not very good, or at least have never produced anything of interest. My class at Edinburgh were underwhelmed by the EIGCA members who came and gave lectures; one of the reasons only 1 out of 10 became a member of the EIGCA (and he needed to become a member to get a job). I do feel that we as a new group of architects such as Hansen, Hallett, Ristola, Benestam, Kearney, Spogard, Davison might be changing that, and could very well create a stir when one of us finally captures a great site to work with. In some sense Hansen has already done that with Bundersand, he just hasn’t spinned it to the max.

That brings me to the fourth point, a lot of the high budget stuff that gets done nowadays in Europe is pure spin (90% marketing and 10% substance). In such spin its important to have a famous designer/player to cap it off (in Holland The Dutch and Amsterdam International are good examples of that).  The only way to compete is to go along with this spin even if you just want to design good golf, because if you do not you will never  get the coverage and credit you deserve. I’m proud of building a course like Turfvaert for less that 1.5 million dollars, with only 80,00 cubic meters earthmoving, and will promote it, but let people decide how good it is or which flaws it has. ( http://issuu.com/frankpont/docs/turfvaert_holes_description_1 )

Hope this rambling tale sheds some light on the way one of the European architects looks at it

[Mark Saltzman]

A couple come to mind.

PGA Club de Golf Catalunya (Spain) - Don't know if it would be considered great, but very good at least.  Ranked no. 2 in Spain.  Architects: Angel Gallardo and Neil Coles.

Oitavos Dunes (Portugal) - apparently designed by Art Hills.

Oh well, so I could only think of one.

Mark

[Adam Lawrence]

Jonathan

I think Budersand is really very good indeed. There are some super holes, it looks and plays like an authentic links. I wasn't totally sold on the burn feature on 16, 17 and 18, but other elements are excellent and I would say anyone who can should visit.

Where else is good? Remedy Oak in England, which was routed by Jonathan Gaunt but built by the owner Bill Riddle is perhaps not as good as it should have been given the quality of the site (I truly believe it must be the best inland site made available for golf in the UK since the war), but has a lot going for it. I liked Elea in Cyprus, done by Guy Hockley on behalf of the Faldo firm. I haven't seen Lough Erne and would like to. Robin Hiseman's Casa Serena course in the Czech Republic is a lot of fun, on a difficult piece of land. Carya in Turkey, done by Phil Spogard for Thomson, Perrett and Lobb in interesting, and I'd like to see Stippelberg. Linna in Finland, which Tim Lobb did while at EGD is good. The three Scottish courses that David Kidd, Paul Kimber and co have done over the last few years - Castle, Mach Dunes and gWest, when it finally opens, all have something about them - I wouldn't be surprised if gWest is the most highly regarded in time. And I am keen to have a look at Frank's two new courses in the Netherlands.

It isn't a long list, I agree.

[Adam Lawrence]

A couple come to mind.

PGA Club de Golf Catalunya (Spain) - Don't know if it would be considered great, but very good at least.  Ranked no. 2 in Spain.  Architects: Angel Gallardo and Neil Coles.

Oitavos Dunes (Portugal) - apparently designed by Art Hills.

Oh well, so I could only think of one.

Mark

David Williams did PGA Catalunya - Gallardo and Coles are the signature names. Lovely property, I am not as big a fan of the courses as some.

Oitavos is super - Drew Rogers from Hills's office (now gone solo) did it.