[jg7236]

Why doesn't the American Society of Golf Course Architects have a more strict policy to gain membership.  I know they have set standards:  Age/years under a golf course architect/ certain amount of holes in the ground and being played on/ and around three refrences.  There is nothing about schooling, nor does the ASGCA provide any classes with real college credits or workshops.  It seems as to be a member it is who you know, not your experience, or knowledge of the game and history of golf.  The European Institute of Golf Course Architects has set standards of schooling one must accomplish.  They provide workshops and continuing education.  Recently they have helped anchor a program where one can ge a Master of Science in Golf Course Architecture, I forgot what University one can obtain this from.  I was lucky enough to get to meet and have lunch with Mr. Desmond Muirhead a week before he left us all.  From all his stories he told me.  This was one issue he expressed.  That is why he was very active and past president in the European Institue of Golf Course Architects and not the American Society of Golf Course Architects.  This is just my opinion guys, I now would like to hear yours.

Cheers,
John

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

As a past membership chairman, and past president of ASGCA, I can tell you that most who have applied thought the process and regulations were strict, and often overly so.

It is somewhat true that the system once favored apprentices from established firms in its membership process, although that reduces every year.  Desmond may not have been up to date in his thinking if he wasn't following along.

After 500 years, this is still mostly an apprentice learning system, because the field is so small.  So, what would you favor in looking for an architect?  Someone with five years of book learning, or five years of designing golf courses under the hand of an experienced practitioner?  The university training only gets you the basics of grading, drainage, turf, etc.  Even with that training, I used my seven years as an assistant to really learn what I was doing - and continue to learn today.

I have had many discussions about the philosophy of  ASGCA sponsoring particular education requirements, et al, as the Europeans do, and I am against them.  I could argue the reasons all day long, but two words will suffice:  Pete Dye!

Part of the differences are European versus American thinking.  I recall hearing (although our Euro contributors can say more) that in many countries there, they give aptitude tests, etc. at a young age, and try more to "pre-determine" where students should go, at least compared to the randomness in the US education system.  I could have applied to ballerina school, believe me, with no aptitude, and many US arts schools would take my money, at least for two years, when the rigors of the program would weed me out.

Just my .02 on the matter.  

[ForkaB]

Jeff

Your .02 Euros of advice are right on!

The Europeans (including those semi-insular ones living in Britain and Ireland) are obsessed with "qualifications", far too often at the expense of capability, and very often in the face of common sense.  To your two words of "Pete Dye" I would add "CB McDonald, Donald Ross, Alister McKenzie, Seth Raynor, AW Tillinghast, George Thomas, and yes, even Max Behr!"

[Brian Phillips]

Good questions.

I am studying that same Masters you mentioned.  It is at the Heriot Watt University in Edinburgh with the teaching being carried out by the Edinburgh College of Art.

I am a qualified land surveyor which I worked as for about 4 years.  I then joined a Heavy Construction company and worked for them for nearly ten years including nearly three years as a golf course constructor.

I then left that company to start my own golf course design company.  The work was coming in but I had no formal education in landscape design.  I felt that although I had more construction experience than most architects that I didn't have as much vision on a project as a landscape architect seem to have. i.e looking at the project not just as the golf course but also it's surroundings.

I felt I needed the degree to also back up my theories.

Has the course been worth it for me and others on the course?

Those that are qualified landscape architects have found some of it boring as they are repeating things they have already learnt.

My attitude to the course has changed as the course went on.  I was quite negative at the start and thought that they should be teaching us more.  However, now I realise that they are not here to teach us Golf Course Architecture but to guide in the right direction and then it is up us as students to research what we need to complete the tasks given to us.

Apparently, we are very lucky this year as the experience within the group from the golf business is much higher than it has ever been.  There are a number of guys from construction, one is a landscape architect, three have degrees in soil science, one owns two golf courses himself so there is a good mix of people.  The other thing is that we are a very, very tight group.  We stick together in most things we do and pub nights are very regular were the discussion on architecture does get heated, which is great.

We also have had two fantastic weeks together playing golf.  The first week was a week in St. Andrews were we visited various golf courses and met the Head Greenkeepers to get the history of the course.  We would then play these courses.  In the evening we always met in the same pub and again a discussion of the day took place.

The second week was a week on the Heathlands.  This year we convinced the tutor not to go down early which was a mistake last year.  They went down (by minibus 8 - 10 hour drive) in February which apparently was a nightmare!  We flew down on cheap flights and convinced the college to pay for the hire cars.  The weather was fantastic as we went in the last week of last term (late March).  Again, every night we met in the pub to discuss architecture and women!!

The thing I like most about the course is not just the amount of golf courses you get to visit but the diversity of the essays and education we receive even though I don't agree with everything!!

We have had subjects such as Geomorphology, Climate Change, Wetland creation, ecology, planning, AutoCAD, History of Landscape Architecture and History of Golf course architecture.  As well as the usual site analysis and design fundamentals.

We have spent a whole term talking and working on routing golf courses which is the skeleton of golf course design while still being encouraged to express our individuality in our designs.

I have never heard of aptitude tests being carried out on young students in Europe and I would love to know Jeff's source.

I will come back with more comments over the weekend and hopefully Chris Hunt and Cliff Stansfield can come back with comments as they were on last years course,

Brian Phillips.

[Tom_Doak]

jg:  As you may know I am not currently a member of either Society.  In fact no society makes you a golf architect; if you can get someone to hire you to do it, you are one.

This of course is dangerous, especially so in countries where golf is not well understood, and so in Europe I think there is a bit more logic behind having educational requirements for golf architects.  In America, there are very many qualified designers who are easy to find ... if someone wants to take a chance hiring someone without credentials, that's up to them.

Not to be rude, but if workshops and Master's programs are the answer, why aren't there more great golf courses being built in Europe?  And why do I get calls about potential projects in Europe?

[Carlyle Rood]

I am curious how many golf course designers are certified landscape architects.  The ASLA (http://www.asla.org/) seems to have pretty formal and comprehensive requirements for certification.

From those of you in practice, in your estimation, how many golf course designers have a BLA?  How many are certified landscape architects?

[jg7236]

Tom,  

Your are totally right, it is not what organization one belongs to, but how skilled one is.  It doesn't matter if one belongs to the American Society of Golf Course Architects or the European Institue of Golf Course Architects, but who is obtaining the most work.  I realize one can put their name out there worldwide and be sucessful in golf course architecture without worrying what organization they belong to.

[Ingmar_Bergman]

"There is an old story of how the cathedral of Chartres was struck by lightning and burned to the ground. Then thousands of people came from all points of the compass, like a giant procession of ants, and together they began to rebuild the cathedral on its old site. They worked until the building was completed — master builders, artists, laborers, clowns, noblemen, priests, burghers. But they all remained anonymous, and no one knows to this day who built the cathedral of Chartres.

"Regardless of my own beliefs and my own doubts, which are unimportant in this connection, it is my opinion that art lost its basic creative drive the moment it was separated from worship. It severed an umbilical cord and now lives its own sterile life, generating and degenerating itself. In the former days the artist remained unknown and his work was to the glory of God. He lived and died without being more or less important than other artisans; "eternal values", "immortality" and "masterpiece" were terms not applicable in his case. The ability to create was a gift. In such a world flourished invulnerable assurance and natural humility.

"Today the individual has become the highest form and the greatest bane of artistic creation. The smallest wound or pain of the ego is examined under a microscope as if it were of eternal importance. The artist considers his isolation, his subjectivity, his individualism almost holy. Thus we finally gather in one large pen, where we stand and bleat about our loneliness without listening to each other and without realizing that we are smothering each other to death. The individualists stare into each other’s eyes and yet deny the existence of each other. We walk in circles, so limited by our own anxieties that we can no longer distinguish between true and false, between the gangster’s whim and the purest ideal.

"Thus if I am asked what I would like the general purpose of my films to be, I would reply that I want to be one of the artists in the cathedral on the great plain. I want to make a dragon’s head, an angel, a devil — or perhaps a saint — out of stone. It does not matter which; it is the sense of satisfaction that counts. Regardless of whether I believe or not, whether I am a Christian or not, I would play my part in the collective building of the cathedral."

[Paul_Turner]

Tom Doak

Are you planning to build any courses in Europe-if you can share?

Within Europe, where are the best courses being built at the moment?  It seems like Ireland is doing the best.

Kingsbarns and Loch Lomond appear to be by far the best in Scotland (and the former looks much better than the latter!).

England and Wales haven't had any really special courses built in a long time (as far as I'm aware).

[Forrest Richardson]

John -- If it makes you feel any better, it has been members of the ASGCA who have taught classes at Harvard in golf design. And it has also been members of the Society who have produced a majority of the reference/technical books on the subject. Many ASGCA programs at professional conferences allow superintendents, managers and pros to earn continuing education credit.

Jeff answered nicely the ASGCA's requirements, which I believe are much more involved than you seem to realize. Education is a very important component — but as we all know, education in this field does not necessarily come from a textbook, college program or set of university instructors with 3 handicaps.

I can assure you that applicants to the ASGCA are asked many questions about their schooling and background — and from where this background originates. No discrimination is made against those without formal college degrees providing there is a substitute form of education — hands-on, apprenticing, etc.

Regarding Desmond Muirhead's opinion of the ASGCA: Desmond was very supportive of me and others who applied to the ASGCA — his feelings were only tainted as a result of "severe personality conflicts" between a few influential members of the ASGCA, and this was a very long while ago. He believed that no organization created the architect — therefore the reasons for membership were where he began questioning me on why I wanted to join the ASGCA. I am certain he would have had the same questions for a young applicant to the European or Japanese Societies as well. Desmond was not a joiner — but I believe if things had gone differently for him he would have been a very good contributor to the ASGCA. He had many gifts and was among the brightest people I've ever had the pelasure to know.

I've now come to confirm my original feelings, which are that membership is not about what it does for you, but rather about what you put into it. I have learned a great deal from my membership in ASGCA. By being involved and sharing ideas one is able to absorbe and sponge up information — I have learned good things and good things to avoid. I have met people I would not have the ability to meet without such an organization and have been able to ask questions, bounce ideas and listen.

[Bruce Katona]

I am both a Landscape Architect (certified by bthe State of New Jersey) and a member of the American Institute of Certified Planners. Having passed both of  those licenesing exams, I can assure you the Landscape Architects exam is much more difficult. I have been working in the golf business for 10 years, on design, construction and financial modelling of business plans.

Design and construction are really a lot of fun, but you need to make sure the project can be financially viable. In addition, if you are sole practicioner, you need to understand how to run a business. A large portion of my school chums are great landscape architects and designers, but most are not very strong business people.

I am curious how many golf course designers are certified landscape architects.  The ASLA (http://www.asla.org/) seems to have pretty formal and comprehensive requirements for certification.

From those of you in practice, in your estimation, how many golf course designers have a BLA?  How many are certified landscape architects?

[Forrest Richardson]

My guesss is that 1/2 of the ASGCA members are registered landscape architects. As far as I know we only have a few (maybe 2) members who are registered civil engineers.

[Brian Phillips]

Completing this Masters does not guarantee myself or others membership to the EIGCA.  It just gives us 'Graduate' membership.  After a number of years experience you then have to submit an application with proof of working or designing I think two designs equivalent to two 18 hole golf courses.

We have had a number of lecturers from the Institute, however none have impressed me as much as the time I spent with Doak et.al at Sand Hills.

I feel that the EIGCA is behind the times at the moment.

As I once said to my tutor I think that the EIGCA needs the younger designers coming through rather than the younger designers needing the Institute.

Time after time I have asked these 'lecturers' why no good golf courses are being built by Europeans and the usual excuses come up -  budget and site

This is one area where I need to improve my attitude as Doak and Brauer have pointed out to me before that there are no bad sites and budgets are challenges.

One of the most experienced architects of the institute has built 25 courses in Europe.  He has never played golf and thought that Tom Doak was a golf writer and didn't class him as an architect.

The ones that I have met on this course don't seem to have the vision that the modern American architect seems to have (refering to the ones I have met or communicated with).  They also seemed to have an arrogance that churned my stomach sometimes.  I have been given more time from the likes of Doak, Crenshaw, Coore, Brauer et. al than I have from any EIGCA member so far apart from Howard Swan who always replies to my e-mails and has been very helpful.

The Institute recently held a CPD (Continuing Professional Development) day at Hoylake.  A few weeks before this day we were told by a visiting lecturer that we were invited.  This was communicated to us orally and then by e-mail from our tutor.  The tutor just said in the e-mail that we were invited to go down.  We didn't actually recieve any details of the day until one of the students sent an e-mail asking for them.  He received an e-mail sent back with the details but no covering letter or even a reply to him just the word document NOTHING else.

We never received an invite directly from the Institute.  We were told indirectly again through our tutor that we were only invited for the CPD day.  The Institute were going for three days.  One day to play Hoylake, one day for the CPD, and one day for the AGM.

We never received an official invite from the EIGCA.  We didn't receive any e-mail or short letter from the secretary of the Institute or from the President.

Only one student turned up but he is attached to a golf course design company already.  Apparently our tutor was quizzed by the members as to why not more students turned up.

The Institute cannot expect 'students' to travel all the way down to Liverpool from Edinburgh for ONE day.  It just costs too much.  The other thing that irritated many of us is again the lack of respect shown to us.  No official invite, we were not invited for the golf on the Thursday or even the AGM on the Saturday.

I was told I should have been glad that we received an invite at all!!  To me that is ridiculous and again shows the arrogance of some of it's members.

I agree with having an Institute that is a professional organisation to promote our profession but I feel that the EIGCA is very old in it's way of thinking at the moment.  I also do not agree with the EIGCA being sponsored by companies like TORO or Rainbird on it's website.  To me it is just not morally correct.

No one from the Institute has ever come to the University to explain to us WHY we should join.

I don't think there are many in the Institute that even know about this website or even care!

I struggle to think of reasons for joining and no one from the Institute has convinced me yet.

To answer Doaks question about CPD's and Masters.  You can teach a person as much as you want but if the talent is not there in the first place then they are never going to be good.  

Tom also receives work in America does that mean that all the ASGCA architects are not good either?  I think it is important for further education.  If further education is not important then why bother with any education.  Why did he go to Cornell?

One of the lads that works for Doak is Chris Hunt who took the course last year.  Now, if Chris thinks that the course was a waste of time then that is his opinion I don't know whether he does or not.  

I think there are areas that need improving on the course but it is a fantastic course.  I will state again, that a Masters is supposed to be a coming together of people with an education already in the subject (in some form) and to learn not only from the University but also from each other.  It is this last part that is very important.  It is the students reponsibility to get out of it what they want.  

If you want to wander through the year and get a C and a Masters and play a lot of golf all year so be it.  However, if you really want to get an education out of the year then use the time to read, study and discuss with your fellow students throughout the year as well as playing a bit of golf.  It is up to the students themselves not just the education board.


Brian Phillips

[Tom_Doak]

Brian,

I didn't say or intend to imply that the Masters program was a waste of time.  It will be useful, I'm sure, when you want to get jobs on your own, as my own Cornell degree was for me.

On the other hand, it was very hard for me to go back for my last year at Cornell after working a summer for Pete Dye, and learning 50 times as much as I had in the two school years prior.  (Knowing I had the possibility of winning that postgraduate award to study overseas helped keep me in school.)

I did not mean to belittle the Societies in anything I said above; I'll probably apply to the ASGCA myself pretty soon, although there are a few "outsiders" who wish I wouldn't.  My hesitancy to join is a personal matter.  But I do question the attitudes of many members of both Societies who imply to potential clients (and some who actually believe) that non-members are unqualified to be golf course architects.  There have always been some very capable architects who lived outside the bounds of the ASGCA.

And I totally agree with Ingmar ... although I wonder if he never used his name to help get the money to make his movies?

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

That is another point that does annoy me as well.  Graeme my good friend who you have met is not a member and is not a Landscape Architect but does produce some very sound designs has been called a cowboy by many members.

This really annoys me as I think some of his work is very good compared to some of the crap other members produce.

The other thing the Institute is trying to do is lobbying the EU courts to try and make it law to be a qualified Golf Course Architect whatever the hell that is.  I also feel that is wrong.  

I am, like you did, missing the muck and the stress of the construction site and even more so now that everyone in Norway is starting up again after the winter.


Brian

[Forrest Richardson]

Brian -- Appears to me that you'd better hurry and become a member so you can instigate some change. The alternatives are to (i) not become a member and allow what you feel is misguided policy to continue; or (ii) not become a member and attempt to work from the outside, perhaps by forming your own organization.

[lesueur]

Brian,
I have had some very similar experiences to yourself while looking at membership to the EIGCA. I decided (for now) not to join for a few reasons but mainly because there doesn't appear to be any real benefit - or if there is, they didn't make it apparent to me. I suppose the difference is that when I spoke to the institute they came across as "allowing" me to join (almost as a favour), whereas I feel that they should exist to provide their members with a service - for example to enable effective networking, advise members on legal issues etc.
The Institute is young and will hopefully evolve. If not I'm sure there is a place for an alternative as per Forrest's suggestion. Not necessarily as competition to the EIGCA, but to supplement areas where it may be lacking.
If I start one tomorrow, who would join???

[Brian Phillips]

RLS,

Being based in Norway we have an Institute for Scandinavian Architects.  I will be joining that Institute in September and they have already confirmed orally that I will be accepted.

All the students on this years course would be looking to join the EIGCA if it were more modern in their thinking, however, at the moment none of the students have said they will join.

I think it is a shame that there is not an association on a world scale.  The nearest we have to that is Archipalooza and even that is difficult to organise if money is tight and people cannot travel to meet up.

My biggest worry with the EIGCA is the attitude the members have to other architects.  Instead of finding out about certain successful projects they denounce them as high budget or a great site.  The ones that I have spoken to know nothing about Kingsbarns and some of them even think that it was a links site to begin with.

I suppose European Golf Design are the nearest to a true modern professional design office.  Jeremy Slessor used to work under RTJ Sr. and is now running a great ship and he seems to be a very nice guy.  I have only met him once and he gave me more time then anyone from the Institute. We had communications backwards and forwards by e-mail and then he agreed to meet up for lunch just to have a chat about the business.  We spent about an hour together and I got a lot of good advice.

I never feel the members are that approachable when compared to what Jeff Brauer, Doak et.al have done for me.  They don't always encourage what I believe in but they do take the time to give me constructive advice and to look at things from a different angle.

Both Jeff and Tom have been helpful especially Jeff who is the most understanding mentor a guy could hope for.  So why I am getting more help from a ASGCA member than I am from EIGCA members?

There isn't one American architect that has not replied or encouraged me.  In fact those that are members of the ASGCA have been the most helpful of all.  

Look at the EIGCA website and they still have a New Year message up from January...so where is the annual subscription going?

www.eigca.org

Hope your job goes well in the city.  Keep Graeme's boys under the whip and don't let them push you around.  If you get Stuart on the team you will be ok he is a good team leader.  

Drop me an e-mail if you want to meet up sometime.  The wife is going back to Norway for 20 days on Wednesday and I am going to Dornoch on Thursday but I am back on Tuesday.

Brian Phillips.

[Tom_Doak]

Brian:

The reason you get more time and help from Americans is that we don't think you might take away our jobs in a couple of years' time.

There are a lot of aspiring young architects in America who have had similar response to your own from members of the ASGCA.  I wrote a lot of letters when I was in college, and only had two voices of encouragement among architects:  Alice Dye and Geoffrey Cornish.  (Luckily there were many others from other sides of the golf business, Ben Crenshaw among them.)

It is really a very small business and most people are very protective of what they have.  I can understand that, but I try to set a better example.  The more secure you feel about your own place, the easier that is.

I remember sitting around one day talking about design with P.B. Dye and a college friend of his, who worked on the construction jobs.  At one point P.B.'s friend suggested maybe P.B. shouldn't be telling me everything he knew because I was probably smart enough to remember it.  And P.B. just smiled and said that's okay, he'll beat other architects out of jobs, not us.

[Ronan_Branigan]

Brian

I would kindly ask you not to speak for me with regard to how I feel about the EIGCA. You have your opinion and thats fine. With respect, I have the financial capacity to pay my way with regard to the CPD day at Hoylake. I would like you to retract that statement.
I would also encourage you to let the other students on the course know that you are speaking for them.
The EIGCA is a young association and I am sure that they have things to improve on. It is always easy to knock someone or something in this case. Why don't you adopt the view that you could have a part to play in its development. This probably makes sense as you will be practicing from Norway.
I know you reasonably well and respect alot of your ideas. You are outspoken and thats fine. Why don't you use your energy to make a positive input to the EIGCA.
Sometimes you remind me of the type of character that the Japanese used to fly planes in WW2!
Take care my friend and always remember to be careful what you say today because you may have to eat your words tomorrow!

Ronan

[Brian Phillips]

Ronan,

Me old mate.  

If you can put your hand on your heart and honestly state that you personally paid for your whole trip from Ireland for one day then I will retract my statement.  However, if the company that you work for that is owned primarily by a relation paid for the trip then I stand by my statement that the trip was too expensive or one daytrip for most of the students but yourself.

In discussions with the students I don't know anyone but yourself that has voiced opinions that they are going to join, do you?

Honesty and stating what I believe has always been a trait for me and always will be.  I do crash and burn sometimes but people always come to me for an opinion because they know I wouldn't shy away from a question.

I was not speaking for you anyway I was speaking in general terms of those that I have spoken to on this course.  The turnout for the CPD day possibly speaks volumes in itself?

The students on the course know that I have written about this today because I spoke to them at the lecture this morning.  They will reply in turn or maybe not reply it is up to them.

Brian.

[Ronan_Branigan]

Brian

Keep it real! My 'Daddy' thinks that you are a really nice guy and he has soooo much money in his very deep pockets that he said he would have paid for you to! Maybe next time. I'll leave it at that, I was never one for dirty laundry in public.

ronan

[Brian Phillips]

Ronan,

No one is saying there is anything wrong about having a trip paid by the company you work for but you are missing the point!!

No one else could afford to go because we are students.  If the Institute had invited us all for all three days then yes it would have been more affordable.  If the Institute had organised the invites more professionally then maybe students would have saved up or been able to budget for it.

Instead of getting on your high horse about me stating a fact (if it is false I have said that I will retract it) why don't you give your opinion about the Institute?  

Do you have one?

Brian.

[Jeremy_Slessor]

Brian has very kindly mentioned me and our company in one of his lengthy, but reasonably articulate, contributions to this particular discussion. So I have just registered so I can add to the debate.

Brian - here's the deal. Rather than asking what EIGCA can do for you - reverse the question. What can you add to it? Your enthusiasm? Your time? Your skills? What is it about the Scandinavian Association that is different from EIGCA apart from the fact that one group has verbally told you that your application will be accepted and one hasn't (yet)? Look, I am not a member of EIGCA (but that is more to do with my particular situation within the industry than a comment on the desirability to join it), but I would have thought that change will only come from the inside. So join, and try to change it. You have clearly got some strong opinions and thoughts. Use them productively. It is too easy to sit outside and be critical. Get amongst them and change what you don't like.

And let me know where I am going wrong will you?

Jeremy

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

Your story reminds me of Jeff Blume, who worked for me in the 80's.  He wrote to Alice, and she sent a letter which consisted of a critique his student project as being too harsh for women.  We went to play a Dye course soon after he came to work for me, and it featured a deep pot bunker about 20 yards in front of the ladies tee!  That was the exact feature that Alice had criticized his work for.  Needless to say, he was hotter than the Texas sun the rest of the day!

I was lucky enough to approach Dick Nugent growing up in Chicago.  He was very supportive, where others, as you note, were not.  And this isn't just architects!  Most college LA professors try to talk you out of golf architecture, as being "too specialized."  Your parents, friends, and just about everyone else will try to do it too!

My one criteria for a young golf course architect is that they NOT be dissuaded from their dream.  If one or two total strangers can stop you in your tracks with an off hand opinion, then you probably didn't have the necessary dedication anyway.

Another favorite Nugent saying - "I was too ignorant to even let it cross my mind I could fail.  Now that WAS a HUGE advantage!"

Truer words were never spoken.  I wish good luck to anyone who pursues the dream of being a golf architect.  However, as Tom notes, I would appreciate it if you stayed the hell out of Texas!

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