[John Shimp]

Im a big fan of laurel links. Really fun to play and lots of challenge.  Great set of greens and mix of hole lengths. I'd imagine that course would really be nerve wracking in competition. 

[Tom ORourke]

Re: Moorestown - Kelly could do a better job of describing the challenges of the changes. I do not think the bunkers are as squared off as they look on Google maps. We have one more hole to finish this year and we will be done. The key thing Kelly did was to take holes that were straight and give an advantage to players who can move the ball left and right. There are a number of 9 hole courses in the Philly / South Jersey area (maybe 9?) and we take turns holding the Philly Junior - Junior as that has always been a 9 hole event. Nearby, Merchantville is also a 9 hole course that opened in 1892, just like MFC. A few years ago we started the 1892 Cup competition between the clubs followed by drinks and a dinner. Always a fun day. We feel a lot better about hosting guests with the changes.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kelly Blake Moran, now there is a name that should command First Class commissions, but alas I have not seen any on our shores.

The name alone walks the walk and talks the talk, his posts have substance but I have still not seen the fruits of this Gentleman endeavours on behalf of the Golfing world.

I love the quote from  Imad in The Kingdom of Heaven  “Your quality will be known among your enemies, before ever you meet them” – now is that an omen that you might be venturing a design or two in GB. The word ‘enemies’ in this context refers to UK base architects as I am certain you have no enemies (living – that is).   

I will say our Mr. KBM has always been friendly and considerate to this individual.

Melvyn

[Tim McManus]

Im a big fan of laurel links. Really fun to play and lots of challenge.  Great set of greens and mix of hole lengths. I'd imagine that course would really be nerve wracking in competition. 

Stroke play competitions are indeed very challenging at Laurel (as evidenced by recent years' scoring at US AM & US Open qualifiying).  The greens and surrounds make everyday match play a thrill - never a boring hole.  Anyone interested in a closer look at Laurel this season should send me a PM and I will do my best to arrange.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Quick question -- how fast -- or should I ask -- how fair a Stimp speed can the greens at Laurel Links be before the miniature golf show starts -- especially when pins are placed in certain spots on certain holes.

thanks ...

Kelly:

Quick question -- does the club still use the back tee distance at #1 for their listed overall yardage and its related CR and SL ? If so -- it needs to be adjusted accordingly. I saw the Website and the CR is listed at 73.9 -- but that must be with the 450-yd marks at #1 counted in the mix of things.

Losing versatility for a hole really means tying one hand behind the other. No doubt you had an original premise to suggest such an inclusion. The weight of the hole when only played at 350 yards loses a good part of that.

You ask about the need for back tees generally. OK -- let's play that out to the extreme -- why have them at all -- just design 6,000 yard or less courses and everyone can play from that vantage point. The inclusion of different tees is needed to provide sufficient differentiation between playing abilities. I know you know that.  Under that rationale -- why have double diamond ski slopes -- let everyone ski on the bunny slopes.

Thanks for your comments on the bunker placement -- frankly, I see flanking bunkers as being outdated -- today the issue is not side-to-side misses but forcing players to handle center-placed obstacles that call upon shotmaking skills to demonstrate. That's why I mentioned Doak's bunker placement at the 3rd at Pac Dunes as a good example of that thinking.

[Tim McManus]

Matt,

The course is very playable and fun in my opinion up to 11 and our superintentdent Bill Shuford does an incredible job maintaining them iin firm condition at reasonable speeds.  we have seen what you describe very rarely - and only as a result of prolonged dry weather.    

Tim

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

What's your take on the land use plan for LL ?

I am speaking specifically about the homes being placed in the center of the property.

I'd have to say that with the natural contours of the greens an 11 is quite fast indeed.

One last question -- best hole at LL is ? Hole needing that most improvement is ? Please don't say in the second question that all of the holes are just great. Thanks ...

[Matthew Petersen]

Tim:

Quick question -- how fast -- or should I ask -- how fair a Stimp speed can the greens at Laurel Links be before the miniature golf show starts -- especially when pins are placed in certain spots on certain holes.

thanks ...

Kelly:

Quick question -- does the club still use the back tee distance at #1 for their listed overall yardage and its related CR and SL ? If so -- it needs to be adjusted accordingly. I saw the Website and the CR is listed at 73.9 -- but that must be with the 450-yd marks at #1 counted in the mix of things.

Losing versatility for a hole really means tying one hand behind the other. No doubt you had an original premise to suggest such an inclusion. The weight of the hole when only played at 350 yards loses a good part of that.

You ask about the need for back tees generally. OK -- let's play that out to the extreme -- why have them at all -- just design 6,000 yard or less courses and everyone can play from that vantage point. The inclusion of different tees is needed to provide sufficient differentiation between playing abilities. I know you know that.  Under that rationale -- why have double diamond ski slopes -- let everyone ski on the bunny slopes.

Thanks for your comments on the bunker placement -- frankly, I see flanking bunkers as being outdated -- today the issue is not side-to-side misses but forcing players to handle center-placed obstacles that call upon shotmaking skills to demonstrate. That's why I mentioned Doak's bunker placement at the 3rd at Pac Dunes as a good example of that thinking.

Matt,

Bob Harris posted a bit earlier that the last time they rated the course, they did not consider the all the way back tee on #1.

[Matt_Ward]

Matthew P:

The facility's Website lists the yardage for over 7,000 yards and a 73.9 CR and corresponding SL. I wonder if the info being presented on the Website is not related to the 450-yard hole being calculated in the mix.

[Tim McManus]

Matt,

I'd prefer there not be houses in the middle of the property, but Southold was very restrictive with the site plan.  KBM may have more color, but my understanding is that there was no other choice, and the developer pulled off a minor miracle getting a new golf course approved.  I don't think any great hole sites were lost, and although you can see the homes from many holes, the setbacks are large enough that they really do not come into play.

I prefer to judge courses as a whole, and don't believe in trying to make individual holes perfect (or my least favorite word, fair).  But since you insist,  my favorite hole is 12, and my least favorite is 10.  

Tim

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Thanks -- but I see the housing clutter in the same vein as barracks being lumped together. Clearly, it's not something that most facilities follow. No doubt the course does well inspite of it.

Appreciate your listing of the two holes -- can you provide any reasoning ?

thanks,

[Matthew Petersen]

Matthew P:

The facility's Website lists the yardage for over 7,000 yards and a 73.9 CR and corresponding SL. I wonder if the info being presented on the Website is not related to the 450-yard hole being calculated in the mix.

That seems to be right. I looked up the scorecard as listed on a couple other sites and it looks like you need to have the first at 450 to have the back tees top out at over 7,000 yards.

FWIW I looked up the club at the Golf Association of Philadelphia's website and they are also showing the yardage for the tips at 7,000+. No indication as to when that was updated, however.

[Mark McKeever]

Just finished looking at Joe's pictures.  The course looks pretty neat!

Mark

[Randy Thompson]

Kelly Blake Moran, now there is a name that should command First Class commissions, but alas I have not seen any on our shores.

The name alone walks the walk and talks the talk, his posts have substance but I have still not seen the fruits of this Gentleman endeavours on behalf of the Golfing world.

I love the quote from  Imad in The Kingdom of Heaven  “Your quality will be known among your enemies, before ever you meet them” – now is that an omen that you might be venturing a design or two in GB. The word ‘enemies’ in this context refers to UK base architects as I am certain you have no enemies (living – that is).   

I will say our Mr. KBM has always been friendly and considerate to this individual.

Melvyn
My god he is in jail not DEAD! All you KBM lover send him magazines and cigarettes. He doesn´t smoke but there could for trading when you in jail

Melvyn
My god he is in jail not DEAD! All you KBM lover send him magazines and cigarettes. He doesn´t smoke but there good for trading when your in jail.
Who knows, they could even save hit butt!

[Tim McManus]

Matt,

LL can beat you up pretty good over the first 11 holes.  I like 12 because it introduces a 4 hole stretch where you have a chance to make back some strokes.  But it is not a pushover - all pin positions have to be be approached from the correct angle, and there is great variety: you can play a wedge one day and a 6 iron the next.  The green has a false front, great internal contour, and a multi-tiered boomerang shape unlike anything I have played elsewhere. 

The tenth green is large, but only a small section on the right is pinnable.  Very few had the length necessary to get in position to hit an approach high enough to hold the right side between the front and back bunkers.  The lack of pin variety remains, but the removal of one of the front bunkers has created the possibility to bounce one on.

Regards,

Tim

[Matt_Ward]

Kelly:

I agree with you on the back tee thoughts. I just would have loved to have played the hole from the 450 yard marks. When I first played Lederach I did not notice the back tee area -- and just assumed that the 350-yard marks were the back tee. Then one of the regulars pointed that out to me and I went back to where the back tee would be and clearly it provides a different perspective.

I just would have loved to have seen a different bunkering pattern -- flanking bunkers for the most part are almost irrelevant as a strategic consideration -- modern drivers are nearly fool-proof straight -- although the hacker can still hit anywhere.

Appreciate the heads-up on the housing issues at LL. I just find the center-placed location to be rather awkward. I can appreciate the cluster concept you mentioned but it's just my opinion that pushing them together makes for rather congested look. Likely all of them sold so the people living in them are quite content -- no matter what my personal thoughts are.

Kelly, glad you mentioned Hawk Pointe -- one of NJ's best short par-4 holes is there -- the 7th --- very well done and gets little attention.

[Sam Morrow]

If you had one round between Morgan Hill and Ledarach which would you guys pick?

[Matt_Ward]

Sam:

Morgan Hill requires cart usage - so if that's an issue for you then opt for Lederach.

In terms of design elements - both are striking in plenty of ways. I think the greens are a bit more fun at Lederach but I see the tee-to-green dynamics as favoring Morgan Hill. In either case -- you won't go wrong with your decision.

[mike_malone]

 We played Lederach yesterday and it places Kelly in a class by himself------someone who places his artistry first and conventional thinking last!

  I have not been there in awhile and had combined some of the holes from Morgan Hill in my mind with holes at Lederach. I just tried to hit the ball in all of the challenging spots. That made for an intersting day.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Curious to know if your visit to Lederach was your second or third ?

Any original impressions -- specifically -- that were either changed or expanded upon ?

[mike_malone]

 It was my third. I believe the width impressed me more this time around. Since I last played there I have been more conscious of the pleasure of width for playing golf and how hazards are more meaningful when width exists around them. Now this is veeeery rare to find, particularly for a public course that anyone can play for a good price.


 The greens continue to amaze. If we put the fun of each feature of a golf course in % terms wouldn't the greens be well north of 50% ? So, here the fun quotion is huge because the greens are just fantastic.


BTW Matt, why not just put your #1 back tee on the practice green ?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I just would have liked to see the original tee placed as what Kelly originally envisioned.

Think of it this way -- you have plenty of guys on this site who argue for original intent all the time.

I'm just doing the same thing for the 1st tee.

I do agree with your take on Lederach - just a wonderful place to play. Public players in Pennsy have been rewarded for so many years of thirst in the desert.

[mike_malone]

 I wonder how the spectacle bunkers would play for a long hitter from the back tee?

[Sam Morrow]

I am proposing an early am GCA Outing at Lederach on June 26.

[Matt_Ward]

Sam:

Would love to join in for the fun.

Mike:

I mentioned to KBM -- that two center-placed bunkers - akin to what Doak did with the 3rd at Pac Dunes would work really well for such a hole -- no doubt the back tee idea is deader than Elvis.

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