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Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2002, 03:43:28 AM »
Tim,
I understand the members not wanting to change a thing, I was simply not aware of the CCC.
Thanks
Ben
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2002, 04:54:18 AM »
It's pretty interesting that some of you describe #18 Cypress as a hole that MacKenzie wanted to offer a little cooling off after the holes preceding it--one even said something like the cigarette after sex!

Not at all--MacKenzie and Marion Hollins clearly wanted to keep the beat up on this finishing hole! GeoffShac's book provides all the documentation and evidence to prove what they wanted on that hole and that was 50 more yards from a tee placed out on the rocks! Geoff even supplied the elaborate drawings of the proposed suspension bridge to the back tee! This was in the beginning of the depression but despite that the club still kept the bridge and back tee idea alive as long as they could but eventually decided it was not only expensive to do but would likely have to be redone over again and maybe again!

As much as they might have wanted it the decision probably just came down to (again)--"It's never a good idea to F....with Mother Nature!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2002, 05:01:20 AM »
It's also interesting to speculate on GeoffShac's observations on hole CPC's #17 (and #16). It seems evident that Mother Nature got involved there too at some point!

Geoff believes he identified some original back tee markers on #17 from a piece of terra firma behind and almost to the right of #16 that clearly would have lengthened #17! But it appears Mother Nature must have ripped that terra firma away at some point!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

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Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2002, 07:35:14 AM »
George Pazin

While I don't care much for par 3 finishers, that's another possible thread about "what should an 18th hole be?".  I might do that one if nobody beats me to it (go ahead, someone).

However, as to this thread, all the par 3 #18's I've played have been pretty good!  Pasatiempo, Garden City, East Lake and Congressional aren't bad holes, at all.  They're better par 3's than the last holes at Cypress, TOC, Prestwick et al are as par 4's, IMO.

They're not my preference, but they also don't leave me as "flat" as the 4's discussed above.  I can't use them as fodder for "great 17 hole golf courses".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Bob_Huntley

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Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2002, 10:15:42 AM »
Tim:

You are right about tree removal on the 18th circa 1930.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2002, 10:33:47 AM »
Tom Paul:

A couple points on the bridge and back tee idea for #18 at CP.

What is clear is that this plan was considered.  What is unclear is what Mackenzie thought of the hole without the bridge and tee.

Do we know whether anyone associated with the project ever truly believed the back tee was realistic? Geoff indicates people like Mackenzie, Marion Hollins and other members were attracted to the idea.  But, what were the opposing views?  Was the resistence simply based on financial considerations?  Or were there people who questioned the safety and practicality of the plan?

I can't find that in Geoff's book or anywhere else.  Thus, I'm inclined to believe Mackenzie must have known what we see today was, most likely, going to be the hole.

While I believe the hole is brilliant as an "emotional cool down", perhaps even without the back tee it was a very hard hole circa 1930.  That part isn't clear to me.

In any case, I like it as it is, just like I support #18 at TOC serving the same "emotional cool down" function.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Bob_Huntley

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Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2002, 11:00:40 AM »
Re the baaack tee at CP's 18th. I do believe that after viewing  the turbulent seas after a couple of winter storms, the members would have been somewhat reluctant to venture out on any sort of bridge then envisaged.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2002, 02:05:12 PM »
Bob Huntley:

That's the point I was trying to make and why I think Mackenzie understood it would probably never happen.

What is your impression of the difficulty of this hole circa 1930?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Bob_Huntley

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Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2002, 03:15:19 PM »
Tim:

I think with the clubs and balls of the day the 18th would have been quite difficult. However, the trees would not have enveloped the hole as they do now.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2002, 03:39:40 PM »
It appears from GeoffShac's book on Cypress that #18 in MacKenzie's original plan (and later) very much called for a tee on the rocks adding 50yds to #18! That would have put the hole at a bit over 400yds.

It looks to me from the original drawing and also studying the only available aerial of #17 & #18 in GeoffShac's book that would have put the tee on the rock slightly to the right and behind #17 green! Samuel Morse apparently objected to this for safety reasons as he very much objected to MacKenzie's plan to put #14 more along the coastline with the driveway somewhere between #14 and #1 instead of to the right of #14!

It also appears that MacKenzie was juggling the pars of many holes around!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2002, 08:18:58 PM »
Bob Huntley:

I guess if you buy into the "emotional cool down" theory #18 has actually improved with age, even if the hole could use some tree pruning.

Tom Paul:

I can't imagine Morse objecting to the idea of moving 17 Mile Drive inland for safety reasons and then also accepting the idea of building that bridge and tee.  Seems like he would have objected to both proposals, as you suggest.

Of the two proposals, I'm more disappointed with his decision on #14 even though I think it is a very good hole as constructed.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Paul Daley

Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2002, 02:45:58 AM »
I rate the 18th at TOC as one of the finest finishing holes
in the game; ever so appropriate and a terrific change of pace over the 17th. Don't for a moment think it is easy when the heat is on.

People forget its inherant strategy: concentrate too hard on making it over the Valley of Sin and you wind up in three-putt territory at back of green: aka D.Sanders. Get too cute with
the approach and an emabarrasing bogey is on; it happens all the time. Yes, Rocca holed out for a birdie in 1995, but remember how his 2nd shot came back to his feet.

Also, don't fall for the trap of thinking it is a blast and mere flick; of course it is in favourable conditions, but 5 irons into the strong wind from hefty hitters is also commonplace. 370 yards is still 370 yards!

The silent seducer is the drive: aim for the big clock and you are home; either a slice or hook will be fine. But in a favourable wind, the green is on - time to get concerned!
When you aim for the green, a push will put you OOB, and I have personally witnessed this 7 times in the Dunhill Cup.

Also, being the 18th at TOC, it brings just a little more pressure to bear: goodness, what a fabulous hole, I wish I was there right now!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2002, 03:08:28 AM »
Tim:

It appears Morse did object to both 17 mile drive inland of #14 (and between #1 & #14) and also the tee on the rocks on #18, both for safety reasons. The safety was for golfers though! It looks to me that the rock which #18 tee was to be on was almost behind #17 green, putting golfers on #17 fairway in danger of #18 back tee and vice versa from #17 when golfers walked forward off #18 tee! By safety he obviously did not mean safety for golfers going out and coming back on the bridge. I really don't think golfers would be dumb enough to take that bridge in the middle of a storm so fierce as to take it out!

Morse was also very concerned about perserving 17 mile drive and everything about it for the benefit of the public! He felt a tee on the rock on #18 would actually spoil the natural view for the public (probably another reason he felt 17 mile drive should be on the coast side of #14)!

Morse was obviously a good businessman and a practical one--he did own the Del Monte Corporation--am I right about that?

It also seems to me that MacKenzie and maybe even all the architects that collaborated on Cypress, including Alister, Hunter, Marion Hollins, Lapham and maybe even Egan may not have been half so practical as Morse.

Just take a look at the way Cypress looked in the extraordinary photos of every hole as the photographer followed MacKenzie around during that one round in the very beginning! Some of the bunkering looks incredibly "low profile" and consequently exposed to the wind. And some of the dunes and "imitation dunes" in close juxtaposition to some of the greens look to me like an accident waiting to happen, and most definitely a maintenance nightmare from time to time!

Some of the low-lying bunkering looked incredibly beautiful, almost delicate actually which would not seem to be very practical on that coastal site. As we know the "imitation dunes" at Pebble (on #17) were very much the same look and we do know they really were a maintenance nightmare!

Again, the suspension bridge on #18 was a substantial thing, if you look at the elaborate drawings of it in GeoffShac's book. Building it would have been quite expensive, no doubt, and times were tough in the depression. Although the club may have wanted it and that back tee too, obviously the thought or having to rebuild it after every random coastal storm was too much to look forward to. For this reason Morse's practicality was probably the best policy!

But the point is that MacKenzie wanted a tough finishing hole on #18--that's the way he designed it--but the purse strings obviously won out!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2002, 06:37:34 AM »
Tom Paul:

I'm not questioning whether Mackenzie had ideas of a very tough finish.  Rather, I just like how it turned out, even if unintentional.  Typically, people expect a big finish, but CP is one of the few courses where some "emotional cool down" works, at least it does for me.

Tom, I'm big into the idea of mood changes on a golf course.  CP does this beautifully in my opinion.  By contrast, something like Oakmont starts and finishes with the same sort of mood.  Ditto PV, my one criticism of Crump & Gang's work.

Paul Daley:

I've never played #18 at TOC "when the heat is on".  And I don't deny it can be tricky even when not playing for the Open.

But, I do think it is the perfect "emotional cool down" hole.  The walk towards the R&A clubhouse puts you in a reflective mood.  The drive is not one that can easily spoil your chances for finishing up with par.

Certain finishing holes encourage you to think how happy you are to be where you are.  Others have a spirit where you need to keep fighting and postpone reflection until the final putt is down.

For me, CP, TOC and Ballybunion are in the former category.  An Oakmont, Winged Foot or Pine Valley are in the latter category.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

TEPaul

Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2002, 08:31:41 AM »
TimW:

I see, it's mood changes you're into! Then Merion would be the one for you!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2002, 08:54:56 AM »
Tom Paul,

Merion does.....a little or not quite as much as a Crystal Downs.  My favorite mood changer might be Burnham & Berrow.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Paul Richards

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Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2002, 05:48:39 PM »
Personally, I happen to like the 18th at Cypress Point, and
don't agree it's "only" a 17-hole course!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Bob_Huntley

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Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2002, 05:59:00 PM »
TEPaul:

You are quite right about S.F.B.Morse and his love of the Seventeen Mile Drive, but did you know that when he sold the land for MPCC's Shore Course to the club for one dollar, he also said that if they paid to route the Drive somewhat inland, they could build their new course right down to the beach? All they had to do was pay for the road work, which I understand was estimated at the time for around $50,000.00. The Club balked and an opportunity was lost.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2002, 06:23:21 PM »
Bob,

Histories great blunders.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Paul Richards

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Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2002, 07:08:18 PM »
MPCC is under-rated.  Too bad they couldn't build all the
way to the shore because of being cheap! :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

TEPaul

Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2002, 07:38:27 AM »
Bob:

I did not know that about MPCC and what Morse recommended. I really don't know that much about the evolution out there--just what I've gotten from GeoffShac and his book.

I did hear something very interesting yesterday on the telecast from Venturi though at the end of the tournament. That was that there were lots planned along the water on what is now #6, 7, 8,9,10 and Morse bought back all those lots and moved them to the inland side of the course. His thought was the course would be so much better if houses did not obstruct the view and play of the course along the water.

I would say that might be THE all time dogged bullet!!

I love these little intersting historical vignettes and will repeat a most interesting personal one if you were not around when I posted it quite a long time ago about the Monterrey Peninula.

My old Dad played in a good number of US Amateurs and his goal was always to make the quarters so he could get into the Masters.

He hated talking about golf and so I never knew much about his career or experiences. He had a very dry sense of humor though and once he told me he thought he was going to make it at Pebble one time but the guy who was in the room next to him would fight with his wife all night every night and he just got tired out from lack of sleep having to listen to them.

A couple of years ago somebody on GCA posted a topic called "What's not to love about golf" and I told that to my mother who's now 86. She said; "Ah, yes, the game was so good to your father" and she proceeded to tell me about sitting around the fire one chilly evening at the lodge with my Dad beside the fire after he'd just lost in the US Amateur. And she said; "Funny it was just me, your Dad and Bob Jones!"

Well I couldn't believe it, never heard that before and I posted it on here. You can imagine the reaction and I told her about it a few days later! 86 year olds have to search their memories sometime and she sat there quietly for a time and said this: "Actually, there were four of us, your Dad, me, Bob Jones who such a nice man and told Dad that it was just a game and there's always next year but there was another nice man call Sam Moore or something!"

I said, you don't mean Samuel Morse do you? And she said; "Yes, that's the one, he owned Pebble Beach!" It is just amazing to me to think about that now; my mother knew nothing about golf and couldn't have cared less. To her it was a nice place, nice fire, nice drinks and a couple of guys who just happened to be nice men! Jeezus!

And what my father did tell me about that time was only the guy and his wife that kept him up every night--he told me it was Skee Riegal, a guy from Philadelphia and he won the Amateur. My mother and father were from New York and it wasn't for another 25 years until I met Skee Riegal and this whole thing fell into place! The year, which I actually had to look up, was 1947!

I saw Skee in the supermarket last year and I didn't mention to him about my Dad and all the late night arguing but I did ask him about that Amateur and Jones and he said he played a practice round with Jones out there then and he thinks it may have been one of the last or maybe the last times Jones ever played golf. Someboby on here put Jones's last round a bit later though.

But it was very interesting stuff--and to them it all seemed so normal! Wow!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2002, 07:47:26 AM »
And someone said this discussion group was getting too "grill room" and "uninteresting"?

WOW.  If you can't get into stories like this, you have no soul.

Thank you VERY MUCH, Tom.

I would note, for a certain SoCal purist, that this has incredibly cool story offers no comments on golf course architecture... but I'm too nice.

 ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2002, 09:26:45 AM »
You know, there are lots of interesting stories, I know, but what I said about my father not really liking to talk about golf was unfortunately so true.

Frankly, it wasn't until I got so interested in architecture that all this stuff started meaning so much to me--and that was only about five years ago. And as I said on here once, just before he died (9 years ago) I was hoping what he said to me that we had done it all and said it all was a true statement.

Well, unfortunately, I can see that wasn't true. He probably never thought to talk to me about all these little things because he didn't think I was interested--and I wasn't--not then, but I am now.

Man, I wish I could talk to him now with all that he knew and was part of. Just the architectural side of all this would be enough. Think of all the courses he belonged to throughout his life--an awesome array of them that all of us are dying to know the real histories and evolutions of. I have absolutely no idea what my father thought about architecture, we never discussed it one single time but I know he knew a great deal about it--even was part of the beginnings of some wonderful courses and what happened on so many others.

But he was also there in the 1940s-50s-60s-70-80s when many of these courses went careening through the so-called "Modern Age" distortions and redesigns. What did he think of that and what did he do in that era? What did he really think about it and what did he really think of an architect like Ross whose courses he must have belonged to about five of at one time or another in his life. And MacDonald and Raynor too. But Dick Wilson was the only one whose name I ever heard him mention--and of course Pete Dye because he was a good friend but that was very early in Pete's career and not a word was ever mentioned about architecture. And he probably played scores and scores of all these courses in his tournament travels. What would he say about them then and now if I could only ask him?

On that note there's a most interesting little story here about a man at Gulph Mills, a wonderul man who's well over ninety now. He was on our restoration master plan committee last year when we talked so much about the tree problems that have evolved over the years on our course. We had over twenty meetings and he came to every one and never said more than ten words.

One time we were talking about the trees and how they'd corrupted much of the design intent of the course, many of the shot angles, and he finally spoke up and said; "I know about that because I'm the one who planted them".

Oh My God, that was a moment to behold but then he said: "I've listened carefully to what's been said and when we planted them we didn't think about the things you're explaining here, we didn't think about things like shot angles and design intent and if you want me to I will tell the membership that!"

What a moment! That's the eras coming together in an extraordinary moment--damn nearly made us all cry!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2002, 01:56:34 PM »
TEPaul:

Great story about the tree plantings.

Most of the guys who planted them meant well, but really
never thought about what would happen to the course in
the future when all those trees matured.

Glad to hear that someone actually understood that!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Seventeen Hole Course
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2002, 10:47:21 AM »
Some have argued that Royal County Down is the best
17-hole golf course.  Those folks don't like the man-made
lake on the 17th hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG