[Tim Nugent]

I'm surprised that nobody made mention of Shore Acres.  Although a tight piece of property, it make the most out of the ravines and topography.  Having a Biaritz and Redan side by side but on different 9's is pretty interesting.  If there is one weakness, it would be that 3 of the par 3's play east.

Anthony, put down the Cruden Bay kool-aide, althought it is an interesting course, it is not a great routing.  I don't need to climb up a hill to tee off and climb back down the same way I went up (perpendicular to the line of Play - #4). Plus that climb (I coulda used a Sherpa) up to #10(?).

As for PB, you can't complain about the walk back to #6 tees because they are related to where #5 used to be. One has to wonder what the routing whould have been like if that piece of property was available from the get-go.

[Bill_McBride]

As for PB, you can't complain about the walk back to #6 tees because they are related to where #5 used to be. One has to wonder what the routing whould have been like if that piece of property was available from the get-go.

Of course you (me) can complain about the walk back to #6 tee. It's completely out of character with a course that has 25 yard green to tee walks.

I think acquiring the new land for #5 should have set up a redesign of #6 as a par 4, just to maintain the integrity of the routing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride,

YIKES, say it isn't so.

Redesign # 6 ?
Make it a par 4 ?

Yikes.

P.S.  I liked the old # 5.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride,

YIKES, say it isn't so.

Redesign # 6 ?
Make it a par 4 ?

Yikes.

P.S.  I liked the old # 5.

I wish I had had  access to the "sarcastic" emoticon when I suggested changing #6 to a par 4.

What I really meant to say was how stupid it was to create a hundred or more yard hike back to the sixth tee when (as we agree), #5 was quite a nice par 3 in the first place -- and the sixth tee was twenty five yards away.

That decision, stupid or not, put a huge hole in what was a fabulous routing. Now it's less fabulous. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

It's certainly a disconnect.

Can it be said that the owners of PB, at the time, sold out for the sake of "eye candy" ?

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

On the modern side, I'll put in a vote for Caledonia in SC.  With very little acreage and hardly any terrain change, Strantz built an interesting and highly entertaining course that flows well and leaves the golfer wanting more.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

It's certainly a disconnect.

Can it be said that the owners of PB, at the time, sold out for the sake of "eye candy" ?

Could it have had anything to do with Charles Schwab getting bored with his house there on the cliff?

[Sean Leary]

Matt Ward,

I'm surprised you and others chose Merion.

I've always felt the crossovers were a negative, especially when you had to walk through the clubhouse.

Others were terribly critical of the original crossovers at Atlantic, but, gave Merion a pass.

I don't think anyone argues that Merion is a terrific golf course, but, I still view the crossovers as debits.

I'm in agreement with Patrick on being surprised by Merion's mention. While I consider the course to be one of the 10 best I've ever played, the walk to 14 tee is most awkward.

Pacific Dunes has an awkward crossover as well and has been mentioned a few times too.....

Where's the awkward crossover at PD? I don't remember one...

11 green to 12 tee. You either go around or cut across 5 tee box...I am not saying its not a b=great routing, just pointing out an somewhat awkward walk.

[Alex Miller]

Matt Ward,

I'm surprised you and others chose Merion.

I've always felt the crossovers were a negative, especially when you had to walk through the clubhouse.

Others were terribly critical of the original crossovers at Atlantic, but, gave Merion a pass.

I don't think anyone argues that Merion is a terrific golf course, but, I still view the crossovers as debits.

I'm in agreement with Patrick on being surprised by Merion's mention. While I consider the course to be one of the 10 best I've ever played, the walk to 14 tee is most awkward.

Pacific Dunes has an awkward crossover as well and has been mentioned a few times too.....

Where's the awkward crossover at PD? I don't remember one...

11 green to 12 tee. You either go around or cut across 5 tee box...I am not saying its not a b=great routing, just pointing out an somewhat awkward walk.

Fair enough, but that can't really be compared to Merion's crossover. I think only the back tee on 5 is the one that is crossed in terms of line of play while they go across the fairway at Merion, right?

[Sean_A]

I didn't mind the cross-over at Merion's 3rd, but the cross-over to 14 is a serious blow to the routing.  Its enough that I wouldn't consider Merion among the elite in routing without a qualifier - which is not ideal if we are truly talking about the best of the best.

Ciao

[Jim McCann]

Scott:

In relation to The European Club, I like the way the routing only gives golfers a sniff of
a real links golf experience on the front nine, building the anticipation until you stand on
the 12th tee to take on the excellent seaside element between holes 12 and 15.   

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ireland - Lahinch and Enniscrone, with the European Club just out of the frame.
        

I'd agree with Enniscrone. I think it now has an excellent routing, all the more so for it being a contrived one from two designs. I still think the differing style of the new and old holes jars a little bit though.

Lahinch is pretty good also but the crossing of Klondyke from the 18th tee is one of the most dangerous in golf, the walk from 13 green to 14 tee isn't ideal and I never feel enamoured with heading back away from the clubhouse as late as 15 either... All minor quibbles as Lahinch is probably my favourite place to play golf in Ireland... I might take Ballybunion's routing ahead of it though...

I quite like the European's routing - I lost my bearings first time I played there which is unusual and always a good thing....

[Doug Wright]

What about The Old Course? It works well (apparently) either forward or in reverse.

[Adam Clayman]

Bill,

It's certainly a disconnect.

Can it be said that the owners of PB, at the time, sold out for the sake of "eye candy" ?

Patrick, I understand that they (The company) almost blew the deal at the last minute. In the end, I think they ended up spliting the 9 million with Schwab., and perhaps the other home builder (Allen?)

For those who don't know, The back story is that Morse wouldn't pay the asking price of, I think 19,000, back in 1918, for the lot. There was lots of animosity between the two parties.

We've had this discussion infinite times on this site. The split between those who like the new, and those of us who prefer the old 5th, is a very interesting study. As someone who once came to the old 5th 2 under par, and left, 2 over, I loved the hole. The green was probably the most interesting and severe at Pebble.

Paul Cowley is convinced the routing could be improved by reversing holes 9-12. I'd agree that the view playing down the hill towards the water, backwards on 11, would be pretty cool. But, I'm not convinced that just because a hole has a water view, automatically makes it a better hole.

[Patrick Kiser]

... Abroad, Royal Melbourne West and Kingston Heath produce similar excellence. Never do holes feel juxtaposed onto the land by man's hand and the adventure seems to spill from each green through the next. Both courses never tax the player's gyroscope artificially and the man-made sand hazards resonate with natural appeal. Simply delightful!

A second vote here for RM and KH.  I'll take the composite course at RM over RMW though from what I saw.

[Tom MacWood]

To those who said Muirfield was one of the best routed courses in the world, why?

[Tom MacWood]

Bill,

Paul Cowley is convinced the routing could be improved by reversing holes 9-12. I'd agree that the view playing down the hill towards the water, backwards on 11, would be pretty cool. But, I'm not convinced that just because a hole has a water view, automatically makes it a better hole.

If you took the present 9th and/or 10th hole at PBGL and moved them to another course they would immediately become that courses best hole, with a very small list of exceptions, with emphasis on very small. #11 is a good hole. #12 is not a good hole, but IMO that is not because of its direction. The same hole design going in the opposite direction would still be a mediocre hole. Paul Cowley's idea IMO is high risk for no apparent reward, which is probably why hiring him to re-route your world class golf course would not be a very good idea.

The other consideration...how do you reverse 9-12 without changing the routing of the rest of the holes?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Bill,

Paul Cowley is convinced the routing could be improved by reversing holes 9-12. I'd agree that the view playing down the hill towards the water, backwards on 11, would be pretty cool. But, I'm not convinced that just because a hole has a water view, automatically makes it a better hole.

The other consideration...how do you reverse 9-12 without changing the routing of the rest of the holes?

From Google earth, it looks like 9-13 or 10-12 for me... Those options seem possible...

[Sean_A]

Ireland - Lahinch and Enniscrone, with the European Club just out of the frame.
        

I'd agree with Enniscrone. I think it now has an excellent routing, all the more so for it being a contrived one from two designs. I still think the differing style of the new and old holes jars a little bit though.

Lahinch is pretty good also but the crossing of Klondyke from the 18th tee is one of the most dangerous in golf, the walk from 13 green to 14 tee isn't ideal and I never feel enamoured with heading back away from the clubhouse as late as 15 either... All minor quibbles as Lahinch is probably my favourite place to play golf in Ireland... I might take Ballybunion's routing ahead of it though...

I quite like the European's routing - I lost my bearings first time I played there which is unusual and always a good thing....

I like how Enniscrone uses separate water on the different nines, but I can't help feel like a tick needs to go against Steel for using so much of the new dunes land up for par 5s.  These holes tend to have a "samey" feel about them.  Of course the question becomes how to use both water areas without so many linking par 5s?  I would also say that the dunes prohibit the routing from being ideal (a bit tight here and there and some undesirable walks) and that is often the case for many duney courses.  Even though these issues keep Enniscrone out of the rank of routings for me, I think the course rises above this slight criticism and is just as compelling as nearly any course in Ireland. 

Ciao 

[D_Malley]

can someone explain to me what is negative about having a crossover in your routing?

I realize that on a day with a packed course it could cause a slight delay, but is this really why you would view a crossover as a negative?

it can be an  efficient use of land on a tight property and make use of one natural contour on multiple holes.

This could IMO be an ingenious feature in a great routing, granted it is probably not a feature you would want on a busy public course, but I do not see many of these type of courses listed here as great routings.

[Ally Mcintosh]

can someone explain to me what is negative about having a crossover in your routing?

I realize that on a day with a packed course it could cause a slight delay, but is this really why you would view a crossover as a negative?

it can be an  efficient use of land on a tight property and make use of one natural contour on multiple holes.

This could IMO be an ingenious feature in a great routing, granted it is probably not a feature you would want on a busy public course, but I do not see many of these type of courses listed here as great routings.

Safety

[Adam Clayman]

Ally, Tom, Yes, I think it was 10-12. My mistake.

Tom, Are you just spouting the majority opinion about the 12th hole's quality or do you have a reason why you say it's a bad hole? Also,
 Paul Cowley use to work on the crew at Pebble Beach and has probably spent more time thinking about this alteration that either of us. While we can disagree with him, Your last comment about hiring him was an unnecessary addition to your post.

D Malley,
 I don't think just because there's a cross over is a bad thing. It depends on how it's done. Interlachen is a good example. Merion's trek from 13 to 14 is a poor one, because it feels forced. Which it was because the original route is not playable

[Tom MacWood]

Adam
The 12th is a visually nondescript. There is nothing of interest to look at and nothing of interest strategically, and those things usually go hand in hand. The land is boring, the bunkers are boring, the green is boring, and a little unfair, considering the length of the hole. Other than that I like the hole.

I don't care how much time he spent there. If he can't recognize one of the brilliant routings in golf....if it ain't broke why fix it?

[Scott Warren]

Jim McCann:

In relation to The European Club, I like the way the routing only gives golfers a sniff of
a real links golf experience on the front nine

I din't really understand what you mean by that. Could you please explain?

[Adam Clayman]

Adam
The 12th is a visually nondescript. There is nothing of interest to look at and nothing of interest strategically, and those things usually go hand in hand. The land is boring, the bunkers are boring, the green is boring, and a little unfair, considering the length of the hole. Other than that I like the hole.

I don't care how much time he spent there. If he can't recognize one of the brilliant routings in golf....if it ain't broke why fix it?

Tom, I can easily disagree with 90% of your post. The exception being a great routing and to a lessor extent the nature of the land of the 12th.

I wouldn't call it boring, I'd call it subtle. The gentle slope downhill, broken up by several line of instinct bunkers creates not only a visual interest, but also intimidation factor, which is evident after watching supposed good golfers play their shot. The hole is highly strategic but requires multiple plays, or an uncanny ability to pick up on the nuance, to appreciate it. It also requires the player to examine themselves, and their ability, honestly.

To call the green "unfair" is a ridiculous assertions. It' is after all the green that creates all of things you apparently miss about playing the hole. From the down slope over the front bunker, that makes playing towards the flag a suckers endeavor, to the converging slopes, internally. The green is challenging and the appropriate playing of the hole, is not straight forward. To me, that aspect makes it a better hole than most holes created since Joe McCarthy.

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