[jeffwarne]

i always enjoy watching this tournament.
Of course i worked there for 10 years so I've got familiarity

Johnny Miller just said a player hit a" push hook"
There was big trouble on the left
said it's a rare shot
"why" he was asked
"because you rarely see a player swing inside out."
How is a push hook different than a draw that didn't quite come back all the way.(which is what a right to left player would tend to do with trouble on the left) or.... better yet.. he was aiming to that spot and hit a small draw exactlyto that spot.
before he hit Johnny did say players always miss this shot to the right...no shi$# Sherlock.

a push hook......

I guess a more reasoned announcer would be boring-I think I am getting old though as I am beginning to enjoy him

[Tim Gavrich]

I would imagine that a "push hook" (right-handed) would start out right of where one's shoulders are aiming and move back to the left, whereas a regular draw would start out on a line with one's shoulders.  I could be wrong, though; that's just how I'd visualize it, I guess.

[Alex Miller]

If he's going by feet alignment than I would consider this one of the stupidest remarks of all time. He won his US Open by opening his stance 45 degrees on Sunday!

[jeffwarne]

Tiger hit a top driver 122 yards on the 2nd hole
and a pop-up 3 wood on 14 yesterday.

The player who had the greatest 13 year run in the history of the game duffing the ball?
I just can't see working that much on new mechanics (by new I mean nothing he's ever done before) with that much talent.
and now he's changing his chipping and pitching stroke.......?

[Gary Slatter]

Tim
I think you are 100% right on the push hook.

Jeff
Doral looks excellent.  To me it is very close to the 1980s course, except the greens  are faster, and there are fewer figus trees.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

I have never understood the fanfare tied to Doral / Blue. I mean it's good in spots but far from all the talk people on TV constantrly mention.

No doubt it's been helped by the time line when the event has been held -- used to be the main starting point for the Tour when Nicklaus was active and Norman did likewise.

I like the 18th when the southerly wind is blowing because only then does the hole really have viper's bite should any pulled shots happen.

[Mike Sweeney]

Jeff:

I have never understood the fanfare tied to Doral / Blue. I mean it's good in spots but far from all the talk people on TV constantrly mention.

No doubt it's been helped by the time line when the event has been held -- used to be the main starting point for the Tour when Nicklaus was active and Norman did likewise.

I like the 18th when the southerly wind is blowing because only then does the hole really have viper's bite should any pulled shots happen.

Matt,

Like many topics here, Doral has been done before and the "old" Doral (Dick Wilson) appears to be more interesting than the modern Doral. Perhaps Pinehurst #2 renovation will start a trend.

[Wade Whitehead]

Tiger hit a top driver 122 yards on the 2nd hole
and a pop-up 3 wood on 14 yesterday.

The player who had the greatest 13 year run in the history of the game duffing the ball?
I just can't see working that much on new mechanics (by new I mean nothing he's ever done before) with that much talent.
and now he's changing his chipping and pitching stroke.......?

Tiger isn't even playing a game right now.  He's grinding over individual swings.

WW

[jeffwarne]

Jeff:

I have never understood the fanfare tied to Doral / Blue. I mean it's good in spots but far from all the talk people on TV constantrly mention.

No doubt it's been helped by the time line when the event has been held -- used to be the main starting point for the Tour when Nicklaus was active and Norman did likewise.

I like the 18th when the southerly wind is blowing because only then does the hole really have viper's bite should any pulled shots happen.

Matt,
I taught there for Jim McLean for a number of years.
When I worked there I enjpyed playing the course when I had the chance (which wasn't often as it's very busy)
I did used to sneak out late and play 6-7 holes as the 12th tee and 10th fairway was right by the learning center.
the other unattractive feature was cartpath only until after the tournament which made for a slow, unenjoyable day. They have since initiated a caddie program and that does help for the resort guests.

What I did like about Doral was there was room to drive your ball, but you could work it to take advantage of the doglegs, or play to the wiide side when the angle or wind called for it which was always a factor.
It's just much more fun to play in the wind when a failure to execute results in in a bad angle or a recovery shot from rough or a bunker.(NOT A RETEE)
There is good , mostly strategic use of water on 3,4 8 and 9 10 and 18 which is in my opinion about as much as any course needs, particularly a resort.
I never absolutely loved it, just liked it and as Johnny Miller(there I am agreeing with him again) said today, you have to just survive the tough holes and score on the rest.
Every hole at Doral with water offers you a huge bail, and by bail, I mean you could putt around it and you can certainly play for a bogey,but a really tough up and down par/birdie on many holes.
Honestly though, I would say the more I learn about architecture, the more I like Doral.
I will say I haven't played it in about 6-7 years and no doubt there've been changes I'm not aware of.

Most of Florida golf a guy comes down rusty from the winter and is greeted by a steady dose of predictable condo left water right and a rusty mid handicapper in January is going to lose a dozen balls.
PgA National(for example) is just too tough for a mid handicapper who's not playing regularly to enjoy.(unless he enjoys losing balls which evidently some do)

I enjoy watching Doral because I enjoy watching the pros play golf, not navigate through holes penal corridors on every hole.
That's why I'm still OK with Augusta as they still find their ball and can hit interesting recovery shots (except off stupid mounded pine beds).
Even 18 at Doral has a bail right and a bogie option.

I also enjoy watching it because I have a soft spot from working there and know the course well enough to know the shots.
They also have always had a good field except for the two years after the Floyd desecration which was quietly buried.

I remember skiing once on vacation during the tournament, sick of teaching 10 hours a day 120 days in a row, burnt out and sick of Doral.
 We didn't teach much during the event as the teaching end was closed for safety so I usually took a few days off to recharge and avoid the crowds.

The course looked so good on TV, I stopped and watched from a bar in Colorado.

[Richard Choi]

Sorry, Jeff. Anybody who pays $300+/ round on Doral Blue either has no brain or more money than Gates.

It is a nice enough of a course, boring & repetitive at times and quite pretty here and there, but to charge that much for a round for something this mediocre is an insult. I understand it is free market and they can charge whatever, but still...

To me, Doral serves as a great GCA IQ test. Anybody who is enamored with this course is just infatuated by the fact that PGA players play on it and that it is expensive (so, it must be good).

[jeffwarne]

Sorry, Jeff. Anybody who pays $300+/ round on Doral Blue either has no brain or more money than Gates.

It is a nice enough of a course, boring & repetitive at times and quite pretty here and there, but to charge that much for a round for something this mediocre is an insult. I understand it is free market and they can charge whatever, but still...

To me, Doral serves as a great GCA IQ test. Anybody who is enamored with this course is just infatuated by the fact that PGA players play on it and that it is expensive (so, it must be good).

Richard,

You're not wrong  but,

If that same person drops $300 for a night out on South Beach is that an insult?

It's called supply and demand.

There are thousands of courses better than Doral, but how many where you can play out your back door at 75 degrees in January?
Location location location

Is a two bedroom apartment in Manhatten that's cramped worth 2 million if the same space in Cleveland is worth $100,000?


I don't pay $300 for golf anywhere(nor for a night on South Beach), but given the choice between PGA national, Doral, or TPC in January, I'd choose Doral as I know the weather would be better than palm Beach and possibly unplayable in Jacksonville.

I'd still rather go to World Woods

[Matt_Ward]

Mike S:

Yes, I hope that happens.

Jeff:

Doral is a staple for the tour -- it provides the Miami connection.

But, the architecture and what's there is really not moving the meter for me and likely others as well.

No doubt when the wind blows it offers some tough situations -- especially a southerly wind so #17 and #18 are both into it.

I do agree with you that The Champ at PGA National is one tough hombre for mid to high handicappers -- of course, they would help themselves by playing the more forward tees.

Doral Blue has some tough holes but there are more than enough simple holes for the pros -- I mean the 1st is a joke par-5. Anyone not making four there 80% of the time is losing ground. Ditto the 2nd which is flip shot wedge at best. The 10th is a decent par-5 -- but if you have a south wind it's not that big deal of a hole.

Thanks for sharing your memories but Doral / Blue is great for a PGA Tour event because of the history but the overall architecture is only so-so in my mind.

[jeffwarne]

Agreed Matt.

It's a great PGA tour event

 a reasonable use of flat land and not overly penal to play.
Not a reasonable comment now as it's a limited field, but used to always have great champions, as opposed to the one hit wonders we so commonly see on narrow corridor penal courses.

[Matthew Rose]

I have always enjoyed this event, although the course seems a bit dated now.

The water holes are interesting, but I find myself never being able to remember much of the rest of it, including most of the back nine. I like the par-fives, particularly 8 and 10.

The whole thing seems to be a relic of its era though. While I don't have quite the disdain for this particular period of design that many on this site do, I will certainly concede that this type of architecture doesn't appear to be aging particularly well.

Is it me, or does most of the bermuda look sick?

[Pat Burke]

Jeff,
Re the Floyd desecration.  Couldn't agree more, what a mess.
I finished t-8th the year before thought, and always figured they felt that if I finished that high, the HAD to change something!

[Jim Nugent]

DJ's stats (I think for the 3rd round only): 

Driving distance:           312
Driving accuracy:         71.43%
GIR:                              83.33%
Putts/GIR                      1.600

I guess that's how you shoot 7 under. 

[BCrosby]

How much of Dick Wilson remains at Doral?

Bob

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Site selection for PGA Tour events is never about the architecture as prime emphasis point #1.

It's about other considerations as many know.

Doral / Blue is about a past course that lives on but really is quite dated as others have surmised. What made Doral special years ago was the merging of many great golf talents which made the overall SHOW impressive. How much did the course play a key role. No doubt it did but Doral Blue is really a yesterday course.

[jeffwarne]

Gents:

Site selection for PGA Tour events is never about the architecture as prime emphasis point #1.

It's about other considerations as many know.

Doral / Blue is about a past course that lives on but really is quite dated as others have surmised. What made Doral special years ago was the merging of many great golf talents which made the overall SHOW impressive. How much did the course play a key role. No doubt it did but Doral Blue is really a yesterday course.

Matt,
Isn't the fact that the powers that be that decided courses were" dated", the reason we have so much(percieved) need for restorations now?
It's a slippery slope.
the pros like it, the resort guests like it .
sure it represents an era of 60's Florida(with an updating for ball changes), what's wrong with that?
I would argue that it's width allows the elasticity of lengthening, unlike the already narrow lost ball corridors so prevelant in south Florida.
just don't go putting in ragged edged bunkers and "native grass" in some misguided misinterpretation of amateur minimalism and all will be good.

[Mark Saltzman]

Does anyone have any comment on 16? Personally, I love short/driveable par 4s, but 16 is utterly uninteresting. I think a total of 1 player actually found the green yesterday in 1. It does not seem to me that the Possibility of driving the green was a part of the design consideration as even a tee shot landing on the front portion of the green will usually roll off the back of the shallow green.

Furthermore, the lack of any real risk/reward means that virtually all players will attempt to drive the ball near the green. There is almost no strategy for the players based on what I've seen. The pros seem to be able to get up and down from any of the front bunkers and the rough just over the green equally without problem. To me, any short par four where the tee shot imparts no fear and no real strategy if attempting to drive green, is not a great hole.

Mark

[Martin Toal]

I played Doral a few years ago while in Miami on business. I didn't pay $300 but it was probably not far off, allowing for the inflation of the intervening period.

I thought it was rather uninteresting and forgettable, save for the feature holes which are memorable if not necessarily great holes, and I would not play it again even at a deep discount.

Crandon Park was a better course overall, if not quite as well manicured or presented.

[jeffwarne]

Does anyone have any comment on 16? Personally, I love short/driveable par 4s, but 16 is utterly uninteresting. I think a total of 1 player actually found the green yesterday in 1. It does not seem to me that the Possibility of driving the green was a part of the design consideration as even a tee shot landing on the front portion of the green will usually roll off the back of the shallow green.

Furthermore, the lack of any real risk/reward means that virtually all players will attempt to drive the ball near the green. There is almost no strategy for the players based on what I've seen. The pros seem to be able to get up and down from any of the front bunkers and the rough just over the green equally without problem. To me, any short par four where the tee shot imparts no fear and no real strategy if attempting to drive green, is not a great hole.

Mark

Mark,
I would agree the hole was not designed to be driven.

Starategic risk reward par 4's are an interesting part of the game and very much have become a part of modern architecture.
This has in many cases contributed to the interest and strategy  in a course

That said, I love a par 4 where you just rip at it and attempt to drive a green that is really not driveable unless you're long, execute AND get a bit of luck.
There is a group think though that insists every short par 4 must have risk reward and fear (and that it should be short enough for most of the field to reach) 
How about a hole that simply demands sheer height and length and or luck and ISN't driveable for most players?
Such a hole can be great as it may average 3.5 for the elite and mentally beat you up if you don't birdie.
It can easily balanced by following it with a 490 par 4 frought with trouble.

i.e. I hate the concept of fair evening out over every hole.i.e. short hole =s hazard and /or small nasty green.
Such features of course have their place, they just don't HAVE to occur on a hole because it's short-but they can. I just feel it should even out over the 18 holes due to the use of the features of the site.

It's not great design, but it is interesting to watch that hole-it just doesn't fit the cookie cutter mold of a driveable par 4 that we've come to expect in elite modern architecture.

I actually like 300-320 par 4's with minimal trouble as it does test a different skill set (raw length, accuracy, and short game) but few agree with me.
They're also fun because you CAN hit driver without a lot of fear. Ultimately many driveable par 4's with too much risk  become boring once you find out the best way to make 3 is to layup.

[jeffwarne]

Does anybody have any idea what TPC Doral means?

Did they thinkthe word TPC added cache ? or did they sign some kind've deal

ick

[Mark Saltzman]

Jeff,

although it may seem contradictory to my first post, I agree with basically everything you wrote.  I agree that a short par 4 need not be so difficult that the risk clearly outweighs the reward and as a result a lay-up, wedge is the obvious choice.  I'm just saying my problem with 16 is that there seems to be zero strategy on the tee shot.  Virtually the entire field seems to be able to get the ball into one of the greenside bunkers, and the ability to hit it long/straight is not rewarded because the ball will not stay on the green.  The players seem to just be 'going through the motions' on the tee shot and then are left with fairly straightforward bunker shots to a pretty flat green.

That all being said, 361 days a year, virtually every person that plays the course plays the hole as it was designed (driver/fairway wood to fairway and a short iron).  The shallow green and extensive bunkering make much more sense in that context.  So I guess the question is, should I be judging the hole's merits based on how it is played by the very best in the world, or how it is played by everyone else?

Mark

[Matt_Ward]

#16 is not really a driveable par-4 by its original design -- it was altered to provide that dimension.

Doral works because of the historic connection in being so long associated with the Tour -- the quality of the holes is not that impressive. No doubt you get big time fanfare with the 18th but there's plenty of other holes that are fairly pedestrian -- unless heavy wind whips up -- but that's the MO for plenty of places in FL -- especially southeast area.

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