[Colin Macqueen]

Scott C,
Your description of playing this devil of a hole would frighten the life out of most golfers.
There is a wee bit in your description that I do not understand.  You say that your shot  “........instead bounded off the mound quite forcefully and left me on the edge of the haggis about 20 meters away.  My ball was lying in hairy fescue ......”.
Now I played this hole three times in The Boomerang and once with Mayhugh. Believe me if I had seen a “haggis” on this hole I surely would have mentioned it to Mayhugh as he has a proclivity for photographing all creatures, wild, natural and exotic, when he visits golf courses. Can you enlighten me as to what this haggis is all about as it is a golfing architecture description of which I am unfamiliar.

Should I have my sgian dubh handy next time I play the 7th!

Cheers Colin

[Kyle Henderson]

8th hole overview


The tee shot at the 8th hole will usually play with the wind.


Ostensibly, the narrow upper fairway offers a slightly shorter path of advance.


However, the lower fairway offers a much broader target, and one may bounce their tee shot down to the bottom for added distance. From below, the angle of approach is directly along the deepest axis of the green, for those able to reach in two.


For those laying back with their second shot, several options are available for accessing different pin positions. Hanging back on the right (as pictured) will yield a full wedge to front/left pins while playing to a shorter distance along the left side will set up a simple pitch to hole locations in the green’s latter half.


Looking back to the fairway from behind the pin, the uphill nature of the approach and the significant cambering of the fairway are quite apparent.

[John Mayhugh]

Once in the left bunker should be enough for anyone.
http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/barnbougle%20dunes/

Such a scary tee shot, especially with the wind. 

[Patrick Kiser]

I think what surprised me on this one was I did not feel going the high road to the left gave that much of an advantage.  You're liable to experience a rather tricky lie up there and the green doesn't open as much as one would think.  Go slightly left or right of that high road and you're pretty much done.

I'll take my semi-blind shot into the green from the right fairway thank you...

[Bill Brightly]

I have gone back and forth on my thoughts about this hole since returning from our trip. It is easily the hardest hole on the course and I bet it is on of the most demanding tee shots that Doak has ever built. The centerline bunker must be challenged if you have any hope of making a 4. It is an interesting design element: you have been given great width to work with from the tee up until the 8th tee, and now you are asked to choose between "two halves."

Although I am decent player, I just don't have the accuracy off of the tee to chose a side and hit it from that distance. (This type of tee shot would be tedious if repeated, but since it only once per round, I can't whine.) Rather than risk missing any shots in the marrum grass left or right, I chose the strategy of aiming right at the bunker under the theory that I never hit my target... I ended up in the bunker once, right once, and left once...so I played the hole from every angle!


IMO, right is far better. Yes, the shot to the green is blind, but all you have to focus on is carrying crest of the hill that is about 20 yards short of the green. And as Pat said, this is a nice angle that sets up well to my eye. I hit 5 wood that barely cleared the crest and it rolled up to the front of the green for an easy two-putt.

The time I went left was one of my longest drives of the weekend. But as I stood over the ball I thought: "what am I doing here?" First of all, it was an awkward angle to the green, it really sets up for a draw. Yes, I could see the green, but I could also see all the places I did not want to miss it. A miss left is gone in the marrum. A miss right will slide off the hill WAY right (from that angle.) I had the same 5 wood in my hand, but a totally different "focus" and proceeded to yank it low and left into the marrum grass, never to be seen again.  I don't know what that says about my ability as a golfer...but it confirms that I have too many voices in my head...

I also thought the second shot layup area was rather small and univiting.  The time I hit my drive right (230 yards left to the pin)I considered laying up but felt it was (a) too tight and (b) too far back, so that led me to the decision to go for the green.

And I will probably get ripped for saying this, but I find it interesting: If this was a par 5 on the card, as a golfer I would have no problems with any of the shots the architect is offering. But as a par 4, I found it really hard. Some say the number on the card should not matter, but it obviously does to a single digit handicap when he steps on the tee. What say you all?

[Kyle Henderson]

It is easily the hardest hole on the course

Making it hardly the easiest...

[Scott Coan]

This is certainly a grunty hole but it generally plays downwind so you can open the hips a bit and havea crack.  A good hard drive down the right side left me a simple 7 iron into a bit of a blind green.  You can see the pin but are a bit unsure as to the depth of the green/pin from this angle.  I have never played this hole from the upper left fairway so have no idea what it looks like from up there!

The first time I played this hole was into a very unusually stong easterly wind.  I just aimed for that center slope of rough and lo-and-behold it landed just on the top slope and drifted to the right.  I was hoping like heck that it would have found it's way down to the right fairway but the little bastard white ball hung in the rough in an impossible downward 60 degree slope.  Hence I am not a big fan of these rough covered center sideways slopes.  LF 9 has one too and one of my partners got impossibly stuck there as well.

A lot of my playing partners were hitting hybrids or more into this green and that is a pretty daunting task as I would hate to get caught up in the junk on the fronting upslope.

I can't help but think that a really neat and super long par 5 could have been built here as there is a good long walk fromk the 7th green to the 8th tee that could have easily added a few hundred yards.  That way the player would have the choice of going upper or lower fairway on the second shot or how close to the upslope they wanted to get.  This would be a virtually unreachable par 5 of 600 meters or more and the approach to the green just seems to present itself as par 5-ish to me.

[Scott Warren]

I took the left road twice and I am convinced it doesn't give you any benefit, unless you can fade it long and accurately and run down the slope past the centreline rough, which seems to offer a good extra bit of roll.

My issue with the shot from the left - I had 6i both times - is that if you land in the right half of the green, the ball wants to go right and roll off the green - the slope seems to be more useful from the right hand side, hitting into the hill.

I'm not sure it's a dud hole as some others seem to suggest, I just find it is completely out of character in challenge, options etc with the rest of the course, indeed with the 53 other Tom Doak holes I have played.

Unless strongly downwind, many golfers are likely to be too far from the green to have a reasonable chance of hitting and holding it, and so their only real option is to lay it up short of the hill and pitch up for their third. And if it is strongly downwind, holding the green - though easier from shorter range - becomes more difficult as the wind will make stopping the ball all the more difficult.

I can't recall another instance on one of the the Doak courses I have played where the shot is prescribed in that way.

[Kevin Pallier]

IMO I think the hole would play better if they maybe mowed or removed the rough to the right of the approach bunkers.

Even if one cant run a a low chasing shot up there - on such a long P4 the visual appeal of potentially being able to do so has merit IMO

[Scott Warren]

KP,

Mow the whole hill, I reckon. The bunkers then become a hazard for both the guy trying to fly it up and bounce onto the green from just over the bunkers  and the guy who chooses to run it up the hill past the bunkers.

Does the rough between the left and right fairways add anything? If it were mowed there is still a penalty for the guy who tries to take the left-hand road and doesn't go enough to that side, as his ball will roll down to the right, leaving a tougher shot (much like on the 14th at St Andrews Beach).

[Tom_Doak]

Okay, let's talk a bit about this hole.  It's one of the ones that I would like to go back and work on someday, and perhaps I'll have that chance in the next couple of years in my visits to Melbourne.  Understand, though, that with the course solidly ranked among the world's best and the tee sheet relatively busy, disruptive fine-tuning may not be high on the ownership's priority list, nor should it be.

To address the last question first, I never really thought of making the hole into a very long par-5, and I will look at that.  I don't think it would work well because going back any further would make a very narrow corridor for the tee shot, and if most people are landing short of the central bunker, they won't get to where they can see around that bluff into the lay-up area for the second shot.  But, I am not sure of the distances, and I will take a look at it that way.

The hole is listed as a par-4 (and a very tough one) because it's downwind 85% of the time, and because as Bill mentioned, the lay-up area actually discourages lay-ups by being so narrow.

The idea of the left-hand fairway was to make a shorter route for shorter hitters who needed to go that way to get home in two.  I figured that longer hitters would prefer to go long and right, and that's fine, but the shorter hitter can't carry it over the knob in the middle and I didn't want him to have to take the long way around and make it a definite three-shotter.  Apparently, you guys don't think much about people who hit it shorter than you do.

The suggestions to mow the bank up the approach in front of the green, or the side-slope between the two halves of fairway, are ridiculous because at present those areas are just way too steep to mow.  I personally like the interrupted fairway in front of the green which forces you to make a decision, but the awkward bit of rough between the two fairways is a problem.  So, if I get my chance, I would likely re-shape some of that area and some of the upper fairway, to make it a bit more inviting for the short hitters and to reduce or eliminate the random penalty for players whose drives get hung up on the slope between the two tiers.

Thanks for all of your suggestions!

[Scott Warren]

Tom:

Apparently, you guys don't think much about people who hit it shorter than you do.

Much of reply #132 is about how the hole sets up for shorter hitters.

I personally like the interrupted fairway in front of the green which forces you to make a decision

How often do you use this design feature? On the three courses of yours that I've played (BD, StAB and TRC), this is the only example I can think of and I can't recall seeing it in any pics of Ballyneal, Pac Dunes or Old Mac.

[Kyle Henderson]

 the awkward bit of rough between the two fairways is a problem.  So, if I get my chance, I would likely re-shape some of that area and some of the upper fairway, to make it a bit more inviting for the short hitters and to reduce or eliminate the random penalty for players whose drives get hung up on the slope between the two tiers.

Presuming the fairway area is reshaped and the inter-fairway rough eliminated, it would be fun to have an upper left shelf that becomes progressively harder to hold the farther one hits their tee shot. But in order for anyone to hinge their hopes of par or better on such a finely shaped drive, I think the green complex would require some subtle tweaking to make that angle of approach more desirable, not just shorter. In its present form, I believe most players would rather take a bit more club from below/right and hit into the slope of the green.

Just my amateurish 2 cents...

I'll be interested to see if any of the ideas you presented take shape.
Thanks again for your insights, Sir Doak.

[James Bennett]

Okay, let's talk a bit about this hole.  It's one of the ones that I would like to go back and work on someday, and perhaps I'll have that chance in the next couple of years in my visits to Melbourne.  

To address the last question first, I never really thought of making the hole into a very long par-5, and I will look at that.  I don't think it would work well because going back any further would make a very narrow corridor for the tee shot, and if most people are landing short of the central bunker, they won't get to where they can see around that bluff into the lay-up area for the second shot.

The idea of the left-hand fairway was to make a shorter route for shorter hitters who needed to go that way to get home in two.  I figured that longer hitters would prefer to go long and right, and that's fine, but the shorter hitter can't carry it over the knob in the middle and I didn't want him to have to take the long way around and make it a definite three-shotter.

I personally like the interrupted fairway in front of the green which forces you to make a decision, but the awkward bit of rough between the two fairways is a problem.  So, if I get my chance, I would likely re-shape some of that area and some of the upper fairway, to make it a bit more inviting for the short hitters and to reduce or eliminate the random penalty for players whose drives get hung up on the slope between the two tiers.

Thanks for all of your suggestions!

Tom

thanks for the response.  Richard Sattler commented at the dinner that you might revisit the eigth.

As a short hitter, I managed to hit #8 once, downwind, by using the lhs fairway.  A short lay-up down the rhs every other time, with an occasional one stuck on the hill in between (not that big an issue if you are laying up).

I think the feature that gets up a few peoples nose is the sole hairy pimple on the lhs, which can cause significant penalty for a longer  lhs drive of the wrong length.  Perhaps these people should play right.  Perhaps the hair could be shaved.

Reagarding the par 5, we discussed that option in my playing groups, but the dunes are incredibly close and narrow as you say above).  My personal opinion is that a longer hole would make the engagement with the hill and the greensite more difficult to achieve, let alone finding a corridor to play a longer par 5 through the dunes.  I fear a par 5 for many would become a dwon wind  flattish drive, a blast past the bluff or down the right and a blind third from the lay-up zone.  Doesn't sound as engaging as the current hole to me.

One last point.  In my view, the approach up to #8 green has a touch of the the style of Merion East #16 quarry to it, but without the occasional sapling and bush, and with a little more inclination.  Looked fine to me.

James B

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

Apparently, you guys don't think much about people who hit it shorter than you do.

Much of reply #132 is about how the hole sets up for shorter hitters.

I personally like the interrupted fairway in front of the green which forces you to make a decision

How often do you use this design feature? On the three courses of yours that I've played (BD, StAB and TRC), this is the only example I can think of and I can't recall seeing it in any pics of Ballyneal, Pac Dunes or Old Mac.

Scott:

I don't do that very often, but one good example you forgot is the 7th hole at Pacific Dunes, a personal favorite of mine.  The 7th at Old Macdonald is essentially an interrupted fairway, too.

[John Mayhugh]

Maybe we didn't have enough wind helping, or maybe I was shorter than usual for me, but my tee shots on the hole left from 170 - 190 meters from the green (190 - 210 yards).  Even with wind helping, that approach shot uphill with all the trouble around meant that the smarter shot for me was a layup second - even in a match.  After the first round, I wasn't even tempted to hit my second at the green, and that made the hole somewhat uninteresting to me.  That's the only hole on the course I could say that about. 

[Sean Walsh]

John,

The wind was both light and a little more across L-R than I believe the prevailing wind is. 

I have never used the left hand fairway and am a shorter hitter.  The main reason is that as a lefty with a draw come hook I can't bring myself to aim out into the rough and hope I don't hit a straight one.

Tom,

Would another consideration be to remove some of the marram from the left of the approach to the green (from the ridge to the green around the bunker).  This would only be helpful for those coming in from the left fairway.  Although the approach would still appear daunting the extra room would entice more players into choosing that line and bringing the left hand bunker more into play and less divots in the bailout area. On the first play I could imagine many players standing on the green thinking why they had chosen to go right when there was all that room for the approach on the left.. 

This wouldn't need any widening of the driving areas merely the softening of the slope between the fairways you favour.  I personally like the split fairway.  The drive reminds me a little of 17 at Brora every time I play it.  So if only for that it's a hole I like.   

[Kyle Henderson]

9th hole overview


The closing tee shot on the front nine is visually imposing from the back tees, due to a small shoulder from the right hand dune, but it widens considerably in the landing area. I was told by a trusted, experienced confidant that the hole is best when played from the tees farther to port as a left-turning dogleg.


Riding the prevailing wind, a tee shot that passes over the lowest part of the fairway at left center and runs to the bottom of the hill is ideal.


Once over the small ridge, the fairway feeds through a large depression before climbing to the green. The ground feeds heavily from left to right as it runs up to the putting surface.


The right edge of the playing corridor lends an unfavorable, semi-blind approach angle over sand pits.


Looking back past Pup and Sir Matthew, it is clear that approaches should favor the left edge of the green, although anything too far left or long will also feed away from the flag.

[Tom_Doak]

Has anyone got a picture of the approach shot from back before they expanded the clubhouse?

That was one of my favorite places on the course ... the approach looked over the green and right down the beach on 18.  The initial plan for the clubhouse was a small building with a big deck, and the building was pretty well hidden by a couple of little trees at the back right of the green.  But when the clubhouse was expanded, the view was eliminated.

I had wanted to use that set-up for a par-3 hole from the landing area to the green, but eventually decided that #8 green site was too good to pass up, so then #9 couldn't be a par-3.

[Kyle Henderson]

Has anyone got a picture of the approach shot from back before they expanded the clubhouse?

That was one of my favorite places on the course ... the approach looked over the green and right down the beach on 18.  The initial plan for the clubhouse was a small building with a big deck, and the building was pretty well hidden by a couple of little trees at the back right of the green.  But when the clubhouse was expanded, the view was eliminated.

I had wanted to use that set-up for a par-3 hole from the landing area to the green, but eventually decided that #8 green site was too good to pass up, so then #9 couldn't be a par-3.

Surely you must know someone at RGD that has a photo or two... 

I believe Dave Elvins has a few shots of #9 from the early days, but his archive is currently in the wrong hemisphere...

[Sven Nilsen]

The ninth is a good place to bring up another BD feature which hasn't been discussed.  Off the back of the 8th green there is a small flat area that could serve as a tee box for 9, and create the dogleg feature mentioned above.  This is similar to the multitude of teeing areas that can be found around the greens at Ballyneal for the next hole (the back of the 12th green going to 13 comes to mind).  Anyone notice any other "alternate" tee spots at BD?

[Tom_Doak]

The ninth is a good place to bring up another BD feature which hasn't been discussed.  Off the back of the 8th green there is a small flat area that could serve as a tee box for 9, and create the dogleg feature mentioned above.  This is similar to the multitude of teeing areas that can be found around the greens at Ballyneal for the next hole (the back of the 12th green going to 13 comes to mind).  Anyone notice any other "alternate" tee spots at BD?

Sven:

I don't remember any other such spots at Barnbougle.  We talked about doing that for a low-left tee at #16, off of #15 green, but I think we wound up just building a separate tee instead.  I thought about doing it pretty close off #14 green for #15, but didn't.  And I thought about having a back tee on #12 over to the left of #11 green, but was worried that too many people would wind up firing it back down #11 fairway from there.

[Bill Brightly]

Notice it? The Aussies made me play from there!

It is a cool angle. TD, you better go find it!

[Bill Brightly]

The ninth is a good place to bring up another BD feature which hasn't been discussed.  Off the back of the 8th green there is a small flat area that could serve as a tee box for 9, and create the dogleg feature mentioned above.  This is similar to the multitude of teeing areas that can be found around the greens at Ballyneal for the next hole (the back of the 12th green going to 13 comes to mind).  Anyone notice any other "alternate" tee spots at BD?

Sven, that is Mike Keiser's job at Lost Farm

[Matthew Mollica]

Has anyone got a picture of the approach shot from back before they expanded the clubhouse?

I think I've got a shot from the 9th fairway looking out towards the beach, cubhouse site and back 9,
from October 2004. Before the Clubhouse was even built. I'll hunt around for it Tom.

MM

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