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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2011, 02:39:41 PM »
Quote from: Daryl David on March 10, 2011, 02:36:49 PM
Members Club at Aldarra number 199, but spelled the name wrong.  Do they have editors?

That's like complaining about the tune the band on the Titanic selected.  Give these guys a break.
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Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2011, 02:40:38 PM »
Do the math.  You would need an equal number of raters to believe the course is top 25 just to break the top 100.  The only thing this new list has done is issue death sentences.
[/quote]

True, except Raters are able to update their ratings on subsequent visits.  Furthermore, we don't know how many votes there were.  There may have only been the min of 12.  Based on the reviews of the course on this site, I would suspect many people would love to visit Ballyhack.  Who knows, the course could get many more than 12 more votes by the next ranking.

Mark    
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Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2011, 02:43:55 PM »
Erin Hills (189) was almost topped by the Irish Course (190) at Whistling Straits, which is an afterthought in Wisconsin.

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"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2011, 02:47:48 PM »
Quote from: Mark Saltzman on March 10, 2011, 02:40:38 PM


True, except Raters are able to update their ratings on subsequent visits.  Furthermore, we don't know how many votes there were.  There may have only been the min of 12.  Based on the reviews of the course on this site, I would suspect many people would love to visit Ballyhack.  Who knows, the course could get many more than 12 more votes by the next ranking.

Mark    

How do you know they can update?  Are you a rater?
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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2011, 02:53:47 PM »
Quote from: Ryan Potts on March 10, 2011, 02:47:48 PM
Quote from: Mark Saltzman on March 10, 2011, 02:40:38 PM


True, except Raters are able to update their ratings on subsequent visits.  Furthermore, we don't know how many votes there were.  There may have only been the min of 12.  Based on the reviews of the course on this site, I would suspect many people would love to visit Ballyhack.  Who knows, the course could get many more than 12 more votes by the next ranking.

Mark    

How do you know they can update?  Are you a rater?

Ryan,

You called the guy a douche and you didn't even know he was a rater?  Did you know he was Canadian?  He did say he like Victoria National.  I'm still on the fence myself.
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Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2011, 02:54:21 PM »
Yes, I am.
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JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2011, 02:56:08 PM »
I knew it.

I have no issue with Canadians....my teammate at Illinois was from Barrie and one of my golfing clients is from Toronto.  So, I love some Canadians.

This whole site is starting to make so much more sense.
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Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2011, 02:58:09 PM »
Ballyhack had plenty of votes; it just didn't make it.

Lots of courses have made our list w/o a clubhouse -- Chambers Bay, Concession, Friar's Head, Kingsley Club, Boston GC, Cuscowilla, Victoria National, Sanctuary, Links of North Dakota, Quintero, Seven Canyons.
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2011, 03:01:16 PM »
Wine Valley rises while Palouse Ridge and Tetherow fall. All is right in the world.

I wonder what score they give Bandon Crossings.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2011, 03:15:05 PM »
Quote from: Ryan Potts on March 10, 2011, 02:04:53 PM
Quote from: Richard Choi on March 10, 2011, 01:59:44 PM
Erin Hills at 189... ouch.

That is got to be the lowest rated US Open course, no?

That's sad - I really really liked this golf course.

Sad for who, I don't know....

While not a perfect golf course, I think it's alot better than #189 modern in the country.
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H.P.S.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2011, 03:16:42 PM »
Brad,

Next year can we get the individual rater ballots?  Do you understand given modern marketing techniques the value those ballots have? Even without using actual names I would love to see how the Illinois raters rank courses vs the raters from both coasts.  Are you guys way ahead of me and already target marketing to people.  Does my electronic copy of Golfweek have the same ads as every copy throughout the world?

Including the unqualified rating of The Dormie Club alongside its full page ad was genius.  Congrats.  Knowing it is a 7.27 is enough cause to get me off the fence and call about a membership.

These ballots are gold, Jerry. Gold!
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Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2011, 03:16:56 PM »
Top 101-200

http://www.golfweek.com/news/golfweeks-best/classic-courses/

 
Congrats to Carolina Golf Club (Ross/Kris Spence) on their ranking.
Ed Oden, keep taking pictures.
Roger Wolfe, great job. 

 
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Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2011, 05:05:21 PM »
Quote from: Brad Klein on March 10, 2011, 02:58:09 PM
Ballyhack had plenty of votes; it just didn't make it.

Lots of courses have made our list w/o a clubhouse -- Chambers Bay, Concession, Friar's Head, Kingsley Club, Boston GC, Cuscowilla, Victoria National, Sanctuary, Links of North Dakota, Quintero, Seven Canyons.

Brad,

Thanks for the feedback.  Now that we eliminated the "clubhouse effect", can you give any insight about what categories / characteristics lead to Ballyhack falling behind so many other courses?

I'm not familiar with all the details of your ranking model, but was there an "outlier effect" that may have resulted in Ballyhack's rating?  Since it's new and may have a low number of ballots, I imagine the impact of one or two outliers could really skew the overall rating.

Simply put, the rating completely eludes me.  I played Ballyhack & Kinloch 2 days apart this summer, and the disparity in ranking of the courses leads me to believe there was some "non-course" factor at play.

Please understand - I hope you don't take this simply as an attack on your ratings.  Every system has inherent exposures to outliers, personal preference, small sample sizes, etc.  I'm grateful that you have made the efforts to compile these ratings as a basis for discussion.

I just have a genuine curiosity about what is causing Ballyhack's numbers to be so low and hope you could shed some additional information and insight into the numbers.
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Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2011, 05:26:52 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 10, 2011, 03:16:42 PM
Next year can we get the individual rater ballots?

John
Keep an eye on Wikileaks...
Cheers
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Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2011, 05:53:53 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 10, 2011, 01:10:07 PM
Ballyhack is not a top 200 course, really?  This list is the worst thing for golf in years.

It's a Top 100 course or there is no such thing.

WW
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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2011, 06:02:03 PM »
Quote from: wwhitehead on March 10, 2011, 05:53:53 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 10, 2011, 01:10:07 PM
Ballyhack is not a top 200 course, really?  This list is the worst thing for golf in years.

It's a Top 100 course or there is no such thing.

WW

I believe Scott Burroughs would be the man to answer. I wonder if he is still a rater. From the internets, I thought the course looked a bit tough for the Golfweek demo.
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Jim Colton

Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2011, 08:59:01 PM »
Brad K,

Did Canyata and Rich Harvest receive enough votes to be eligible? I know both are in the top 50 in the U.S. on Golf Digest's list, but nowhere to be found in the top 200 Modern.
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RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2011, 09:32:43 PM »
Brad,

Next year can we get the individual rater ballots?  Do you understand given modern marketing techniques the value those ballots have? Even without using actual names I would love to see how the Illinois raters rank courses vs the raters from both coasts.  Are you guys way ahead of me and already target marketing to people.  Does my electronic copy of Golfweek have the same ads as every copy throughout the world?
 - John Kavanaugh


Hey Kavanaugh, how do you propose he post thousands of ballots? Are you going to demand the names?
Why don't you start your own rater group and show everyone how it should be done? It can't be that hard can it?
How is the view from the cheap seats?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 09:35:20 PM by RSLivingston_III »
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"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2011, 09:47:32 PM »
Jim Colton,

Our raters get around. Canyata and Rich Harvest Farms both had plenty of votes to qualify. They just didn't have high enough averages. Having seen Rich Harvest Farms, I think you'd be better off asking Golf Digest how they came about their ratings on that one rather than how we can upon ours.

Kevin Lynch,

I'm not about to get into a discussion on the merits of any one golf course. You have a different estimate of the place than our raters did. Unfortunately, I have not written a Raters Notebook on Ballyhack so I can't point you to a detailed explanation of my own judgments.
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Stewart Naugler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2011, 09:58:54 PM »
I believe excluding Canyata and Rich Harvest Farms gives Golfweek more credibility. I have no idea how Rich Harvest Farms can be in any top 50...

I hope my Chicago friends post their opinions on this.

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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2011, 10:15:54 PM »
Quote from: SNaugler on March 10, 2011, 09:58:54 PM
I believe excluding Canyata and Rich Harvest Farms gives Golfweek more credibility. I have no idea how Rich Harvest Farms can be in any top 50...

I hope my Chicago friends post their opinions on this.



Stu,

Stay positive. Try to cash that first check before you burn bridges in your business.
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Jim Colton

Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2011, 10:21:00 PM »
Quote from: Brad Klein on March 10, 2011, 09:47:32 PM
Jim Colton,

Our raters get around. Canyata and Rich Harvest Farms both had plenty of votes to qualify. They just didn't have high enough averages. Having seen Rich Harvest Farms, I think you'd be better off asking Golf Digest how they came about their ratings on that one rather than how we can upon ours.

Kevin Lynch,

I'm not about to get into a discussion on the merits of any one golf course. You have a different estimate of the place than our raters did. Unfortunately, I have not written a Raters Notebook on Ballyhack so I can't point you to a detailed explanation of my own judgments.


Brad,

I wasn't making any judgment as to which magazine was the outlier, just pointing out the difference. I havent compared the full list, but those have to be the highest rated GD courses not in Golfweek. I guess Golf Digest panelists value ultra-exclusive estate clubs in Illinois more than Golfweek panelists.
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Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2011, 11:01:02 PM »
I guess Golf Digest panelists value ultra-exclusive estate clubs in Illinois more than Golfweek panelists.

:)
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Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Andy Troeger

Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2011, 11:02:24 PM »
I don't know that its entirely fair to lump Canyata and Rich Harvest Links together, despite their obvious similarities.  I don't think either belong in an overall or even modern top 100, but Canyata is a pretty good course and certainly could merit a spot in the top 200. I'm not going to lose sleep over it missing out, however, and can think of bigger omissions.  Rich Harvest Links on the other hand...I think I'll just keep quiet other than saying that GolfWeek got that one right.

Brad--the one course I will guess your panelists might not have seen in sufficient qualities is the Alotian Club. If they have, its by far the biggest omission on the modern list for my tastes. It should be in the top 30.

Otherwise, the best courses I've seen not on these lists are Tullymore, Lakota Canyon, Sherwood, and Cornerstone on the Modern side and South Bend Country Club as a Classic. I have to think SBCC would make it if it were a bit closer to Chicago.  It seems like most of the Engh courses have started out on these GW lists and fallen over time. I think they're fun, but they're different so I'm not surprised that they generate varying opinions.
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John Shimp

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2011, 11:05:32 PM »
Mountaintop at 23 modern is hard to fathom.  Pretty, well conditioned, great food/service but not a course that deserves that type of praise. Cart ball too. I do like quite a few holes but uneven, lots of weak holes, and lacking a soul. Fazio has many that are much better.
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