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Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #125 on: March 14, 2011, 07:30:36 PM »
Love Design course in NC.

John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #126 on: March 14, 2011, 09:00:40 PM »
Mac
Thanks for posting those pictures.  Ballyneal looks amazing.  I love grandfather but hate that bunker in front of grassy creek. Isnt that a good drive? Plus it looks out of place.  The first at chechessee is so demanding yet it looks harmless w that one little bunker.  So under rated.  Not sure what to say re ballyhack.  I like the sand color. 

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #127 on: March 14, 2011, 09:04:14 PM »
Lester,

I'm writing this week from various hotels and without benefit of my notes, which is why I wrote that the tee shot on 1 is ("as I recall") heading east. In fact the course website shows the hole running more northeast than due north, and more northeasterly as you move up to the more forward tees

My sense of the front nine as being cramped comes from a number of dramatic falloffs into unplayable areas and various wetlands. I have no doubt that you had that much land -- 159-acres of land for the front nine. But surely parcels of it are occupied by wet areas, steep slopes, and other unplayable ground. If you had that much build-able land then I have no doubt the sixth hole would have offered more that a sliver of landing room on the awkward fairway.

We played from various tees, our raters (and myself) know how to opt for the right markers, and what was interesting is how many of us -- even the single-digit handicappers -- ended up within a few holes playing from the shorter set of tees. The back nine is obviously roomier, but throughout I got the sense that the design was intent on exaggerating and slopes and playing angles, as if the course were out to make a point and ended up over-designed.

I'm sure lots of people find that compelling. And no doubt on subsequent plays the angles and slopes reveal themselves, as do the possible lines of play. But my point all along to Kevin Lynch is that such an approach to design can also spawn some critical responses.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #128 on: March 14, 2011, 09:17:24 PM »
Tony Nysse,

Hard to believe that The Bear's Club and McArthur are rated ahead of Pine Tree.

One has to wonder, with Pine Tree once being rated # 27, and there being no substantive changes to Pine Tree, how does it go to # 159 ?

Patrick - would you care to speculate on what YOU believe are the dynamics/factors involved in such a precipitous drop?

Peter 

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #129 on: March 14, 2011, 09:21:57 PM »

Also, is it true that if a rater does not go to at least two of the organized rating retreats per year, they are released from the GW raters group?

It is not true.

David,  thanks for the answer.  I actually screwed up the algorithm syntax of my question.   I should have asked ". . . Once every two years ..."

I get the question from an old quote from G Shackelford here at GCA.com (Feb. 2004)  

  Here's the link . . . if you dare.  It's a fiery 12 page thread.   Specifically, reply #40

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=j7k6oll1ng7ve4ag6c2a7si2m2&topic=8949.35
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 09:24:27 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #130 on: March 14, 2011, 09:58:49 PM »
Tony Nysse,

Hard to believe that The Bear's Club and McArthur are rated ahead of Pine Tree.

One has to wonder, with Pine Tree once being rated # 27, and there being no substantive changes to Pine Tree, how does it go to # 159 ?

Patrick - would you care to speculate on what YOU believe are the dynamics/factors involved in such a precipitous drop?


Peter, the drop isn't precipitous when you consider the time frame between rankings # 27 and # 159.

There's a stability in the "classic" rankings because the courses are fixed, finite, and can't be added to, whereas the "modern" continues to expand.

I think there are trends, fads that influence rankings.
"Newness" has its own cache.

Probably the biggest impediment that Pine Tree has to overcome is the topography.
Dead Flat.
But then, you have to consider the quality of the holes given the lack of terrain.

I think the lack of movement impacts raters in a negative fashion, in that its a global issue that can't be overcome and as such, the flat topography overrides the quality of the routing and the individual hole designs, in their eyes.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.  

Peter Pallotta

Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #131 on: March 14, 2011, 10:06:00 PM »
Patrick - thanks; that's a fair minded approach/pov. I take a more jaundiced view - I think Pine Tree has too few "champions", and the course itself --on flat, Florida land, and one of the first of the modern era -- prevents all but the most self-confident of critics from taking on the mantle of promoting it.

Peter

« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 10:18:44 PM by PPallotta »

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #132 on: March 14, 2011, 10:25:00 PM »
Mac
Thanks for posting those pictures.   I love grandfather but hate that bunker in front of grassy creek.

John:

I am thrilled to tell you that the bunker in front of the creek on #13 at Grandfather is being removed!  By the time the course opens this May, the bunker will be no longer....

Bart
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 10:28:57 PM by Bart Bradley »

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #133 on: March 14, 2011, 10:46:51 PM »
Mac
Thanks for posting those pictures.   I love grandfather but hate that bunker in front of grassy creek.

John:

I am thrilled to tell you that the bunker in front of the creek on #13 at Grandfather is being removed!  By the time the course opens this May, the bunker will be no longer....

Bart

Frankly, this is a funny set of posts.  I played Grandfather with Bart and he a member of the Greens Committe and he vehemently explained to me how much he hated that bunker and it was his mission to have that bad boy removed ASAFP!  When I posted that picture I had a suspcion Bart might chime in.  But John beat him to the punch...and then Bart countered.  

Bottom line...great observation John...and kudos Bart...way to keep things moving in a great direction at Grandfather.  Well routed mountain course.  Great green complexes.  Hard to hold them if you are not striking it well.  Trust me on that one!  :)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 08:18:23 AM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #134 on: March 15, 2011, 12:22:12 AM »

I'm sure lots of people find that compelling. And no doubt on subsequent plays the angles and slopes reveal themselves, as do the possible lines of play. But my point all along to Kevin Lynch is that such an approach to design can also spawn some critical responses.

Brad,

Actually I didn't pick up on that point "all along," but the elaboration you made in the most recent post certainly helps me understand where the criticisms may be coming from.  And your comments help me understand which factors may be more important to you and I can determine if such factors hold the same weight for me.

For example, you comment that, "no doubt on subsequent plays the angles and slopes reveal themselves, as do the possible lines of play."  In a way, that highlights a critical underlying premise for a ranking system.  Is the ranking for the person who may only get to play the course once, or for someone who would like to play the course frequently?  It seems to me that these two populations may have diametrically opposed desires with respect to course being "right there in front of you" vs. "a mystery to be solved over time." 

Whichever way the course goes in that regard, should that necessarily be viewed as a "negative" or should it simply be understood as a different philosophy (and judged on that standard)?

Consider Whistling Straits.  Many here harshly judge the course because the land was sculpted to have a dunes feel, but is heavily geared towards the aerial game.  While I may hold a subjective personal preference for a ground game, as a rater, I would be expected to set aside that preference and judge Whistling Straits for what it is, not what I prefer.

I'm still mulling over your comment about the course "exaggerating slopes" and feeling "over-designed."  On the one hand, given the natural terrain, I would expect the slopes to have a significant effect.  For example, after laying up on the 6th hole, I found the ball above my feet approximately 140 yards from the hole.  With wetlands left, I loved the thrill of needing to compensate for the tendency to pull the ball from such a lie, adding interest to a normally benign short-iron (at least, for good players - no shot is benign for my swing).  Was that a function of "over-design" or a result of the natural terrain?

Ultimately, your comments have given me something to think about when I'm analyzing courses.  Whether I agree with your conclusions or not, it helps to have as many different perspectives as possible.  You can be sure that I'll be re-reviewing Ballyhack with Ron Montesano to consider some of the questions you've raised.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #135 on: March 15, 2011, 05:35:37 PM »
Kevin,

For a mystery to be solved over time the pieces all have to be there, somewhere. I've been at this long enough to know when some of the pieces are missing. Not all mysteries are solvable, not even over time.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #136 on: March 15, 2011, 06:52:59 PM »

Lester, your Dixie Cup gang will get this all sorted out this October!

And for me it will be the B or C tee on #1, thank you!

Really looking forward to Ballyhack, there are a lot of cool looking holes there.

Bill - Exactly the point on tee selection.  My feeling is that if you sign up to play a 7,300 Yard set of tees, you probably shouldn't be complaining about a 226 yard carry.  But the fact that the forced carry drops significantly (170 yards) to the 6,750 set of tees gives some recognition that some may want to play that distance without being huge off the tee.


Actually, Kevin, I am more of a 6300 yard guy these days.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #137 on: March 15, 2011, 07:17:08 PM »
Kevin,

Appreciate your back-and-forth on this. I'm not one to go all Matt Ward over this stuff. There are often very legitimate differences in perception, aesthetics, etc. Ballyhack has lot of admirabl qualities, but the ambition and intent on being a certain quality of multiple-option layout makes it more vulnerable than most to claims or perceptions that in so doing, it overplays its hand. It's not sitting on a great site and finding a routing that works was surely an impressive achievement by Lester George -- this despite the extent of the parcel(s) it occupies.

Brad

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #138 on: March 17, 2011, 09:55:36 AM »
Brad,

I noticed that the architect attribution changed on Whispering Pines from Jack Nicklaus to Chet Williams (who works for Nicklaus Design). Just curious how/why the change was made? At the clubs request I would assume?

 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #139 on: March 17, 2011, 10:36:51 AM »
Tony Nysse,

Hard to believe that The Bear's Club and McArthur are rated ahead of Pine Tree.

One has to wonder, with Pine Tree once being rated # 27, and there being no substantive changes to Pine Tree, how does it go to # 159 ?

Patrick - would you care to speculate on what YOU believe are the dynamics/factors involved in such a precipitous drop?


Peter, the drop isn't precipitous when you consider the time frame between rankings # 27 and # 159.

There's a stability in the "classic" rankings because the courses are fixed, finite, and can't be added to, whereas the "modern" continues to expand.

I think there are trends, fads that influence rankings.
"Newness" has its own cache.

Probably the biggest impediment that Pine Tree has to overcome is the topography.
Dead Flat.
But then, you have to consider the quality of the holes given the lack of terrain.

I think the lack of movement impacts raters in a negative fashion, in that its a global issue that can't be overcome and as such, the flat topography overrides the quality of the routing and the individual hole designs, in their eyes.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.  

Pat

I have a strong liking for well done holes over average land.  Do you have any pix of Pine Tree?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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