Brazil 2016 Golf course Design decision

[Karl Kocher]

Hi All, saw this article this morning of the growing list of architects throwing their name into the ring for the Rio Olympics Golf course design/construction.  I thought this may be the first time that I can think of that a course has been built solely for the use of a large worldwide event of this magnitude (was the belfry?).  I also thought that this will be a great time to see if substance wins out over style (or can we get both!).  Will we get a masterpiece of architecture or a long, forgetful bore thats sole purpose is to humble the games best?  I hope for the former but expect the latter.  Does anyone think Mr. Doak or Mr. Coore/Crenshw will throw their names in as well?  Time is a wasting in order to create and properly condition a good track.  I also think that the IOC/RIO will lean away from an American if they can since they seem to loathe all things US (except the TV rights!).  I know they will give serious consideration to Jack and I know his difficulty will fit the bill as well as the demands he puts on the long game, but I would really like to see our friend Mr. Doak get in there and make a masterpiece that would stand out in South America going forward.  Does anyone know about the location/terrain thus far?

http://www.worldgolf.com/newswire/browse/66537-Brandon-Tucker-Which-golf-course-architect-deserves-build-Brazils-Olympic-venue

[Ian Andrew]

Karl,

This is how I see it playing out....

In my opinion the designer will not only have to provide the design “for the good of the game,” but I also believe they will also have to provide the investor to build the course. I think the usual suspects will be short listed very soon and told to bring a secondary player who will finance and build the course as part of the proposal. The people of Brazil will supply the land and provide a long term lease of say 25 years for the property. The developer will then build the Olympic Course and run the property for 25 years before turning it over to the people of Brazil. No brainer really.

I see the result being an arrangement where players from out of country will pay an enormous amount ($500. to $1000.) to play “The Olympic Course” and the other half of the tee times will go to the “ordinary” citizen who will be able to play for a capped minimal fee (say $50.). Kind of like the arrangement at St. Andrew’s – but designed to recoup the investment.

The IOC would of course take 10% in perpetuity for the naming right .... after all they always get paid somehow right? They will see the long term income potential and approve golf for the Olympics, but there's catch each host shall build a new Olympic Course designed to grow the IOC Income....

[Michael Blake]

The 'Jack and Annika team' both agreed they'd do it for no fee-'for the good of the game.'
How many other 'big name' designers will do that?

[Adam Clayman]

Since it's a stroke play event, we already know the IOC has no head for golf. The venue will be unimportant, imo.

As for the comment about it being the first course built for the a major event, wasn't last years Ryder Cup just that?

[Adam Lawrence]

I'm pretty sure Ian is on the button. I'd be absolutely astonished if the job doesn't go to one of the big name signature firms, and now Nicklaus and Sorenstam have offered to do it pro bono, for no fee as well. Too much money and PR hype around this for it to go any other way.

[Greg Tallman]

Either Jack & Anika or Greg & Lorena

[Jaeger Kovich]

So there is zero chance that the guy who has designed more golf courses in the host nation gets a shot at this point? Its a shame nobody from South America is deemed a legit contender for the job.

[Tom_Doak]

Well, it will be sad if it all comes down to politics, but it's probably inevitable that it will.

I would be surprised if it was quite as cut-and-dried as Ian points out.  The Brazilians want to call the shots here on who does what, and I believe they have been looking into putting together funding to build the course so that they can have more say in who does what, unless that effort has failed.  By the same token, I think that most international developers would be pretty crazy to put together a 25-year package to build and operate the place, because they can't possibly have much idea of how golf will take hold in Brazil going forward.  It's highly, highly speculative, so nobody's going to bid too high for the privilege, and that ought to keep any local developer's bid under consideration.

My wife did tell me I could do that one for free if I wanted, but I don't know if I'll even get the chance to make the offer.

[Mike Hamilton]

I think maybe a more interesting question is will Golf in the Rio Olympics spur a growth in the game there.

Not an exhausting survey, but in a couple of trips there, flying into Sao Paulo and driving several hours outside the city, you see essentially no golf anywhere.

With growing wealth, a large population, and a good climate, you would think Brazil would at some point be ripe for golf ...

And if Argentina can win 3 majors, Brazilians I'm sure would want to win 4.

[Carl Rogers]

Maybe a housing development after the Olympics could make the numbers work??

[Randy Thompson]

The number should work on the simple fact that Rio is one of the top ten world destinations and unlike the other nine there is no golf available for john tourist with bucks. Housing would be a plus but not a make or break factor like most other projects throughout latin america. Brazil has a rapidly growing middle class and a rapidily growing golf cultural but once again not a major factor with the amount of tourism it has and the expected increase that will come following the olympics. Lots of people also think they need a branding name to carry the project after the olympics. More bullshit! Millions of tourists, a hugh anticipated jump in tourism following the oympics and the branding of the olympic course will keep it full and profitable if a decent track is developed. Jack will have the inside track with out a doubt because he is Jack and he did a lot of lobbying trying to get golf back into the olympics. But what Tom states is true. Remeber they have highest amount of personal-private golf courses in the world. One member golf courses, so raising money for something they believe in or they believe should be a certain way, can happen. They generally have huge ego´s and don´t like to be told on how to do things. You also have a lot of old timers on the olympic commitee that would like to protect, past images and non professional - big busisness hype, that every big other sporting event has else been eaten up by! I see the bickering and fighting and politicing, continuing for a while! Why should they be different than most developers, take forever to make decisions and than expect the golf to be ready tomorrow! JN for free---give me a break, I am sure he used something like design fee for free but I don´t see him paying for his own Gas for his plane to devlope this project. Don´t see him delegating and not making any visits like he does on his other non signature International projects. I bet with this much exposure and marketing potential, he could set a new record and actually make more than five visits. Anybody out there have a jet like his and can give us a fuel price guess for five or more visits. I would guess more than 250,000 dollars. Do you really see him coughing up that and than let some developer fill his pockets afterwards because of the JN branding name. Nobody should do it for free unless everything is donated and everything from start to finish is really non-profit and everything A-Z is for the better of golf. Fat chance of all that happening in todays day and age.

[Jim McCann]

I didn't realize a decison had been taken to construct a new course for the Olympics.

Is there not a possibility that one of Brazil's many existing courses could be upgraded for
what is, after all, a one-off event? 

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

They are going to build a new course.  The Rio Organizing Committee has stipulated that every event be played in Rio.  There are only two courses in Rio, both of them private, and neither very suitable without extensive work ... and there is no way the Olympics will invest money into one of the private clubs.  So, a new course that will be open to the public afterward is what will happen.

[Jud_T]

Apologies for digressing, but why would the Olympics not be a match play event, and will this effect the design of the course?

[Jim McCann]

It seems a pity that a course like Itanhanga:

http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/productdetails.asp?id=2214

which was able to host a top flight professional competition just over a decade ago, will be overlooked when the
Olympic road show comes to town in 2016.

Then again, if the event was only open to top amateurs - perish such an Olympian thought - then the short courses
at both Itanhanga and Gavea could be used with minimum fuss or bother... 

[Sam Morrow]

It's the Olympics, the process of selecting a designer will be crooked as hell.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Jim
I agree totally re the amateur participation. although they hit it at least as afra s the pros do...the teans from the USA Would be made up of college kids who simply have grown up hitting it miles.
That been said...of all the sports that fulfill the original Olympic ideal, our sport is on eof the few left that has definate guidlines sepertaing the paid and unpaid levels of the game.

It would have been the perfect oportuntiy to reengagae the Olympic ideal with the addition of golf....but no...this wonderful old organisation based ion the ideals of participation and goodwill, just lean to the mighty dollar and open the event to the big names of the sport for TV rights.
If Tiger Woods had not come on the scene how many think golf would even be in the Olympics in 2016 ?
Just leaves a nasty taste in my mouth about the whole golf in the olympics idea....

[Tom_Doak]

Jim McCann:

I only saw Itanhanga from a helicopter, but was told that the problem was that parts of the course go underwater in big rain events, and that the club didn't have the funds to fix that situation.  And they are concerned about the potential for rain in August.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I was hopinh the Gavea or Itanhanga would get the nod based upon the history of the two courses and their respective influences on Brazilian Golf, but again money appears to have spoken ahead of history.
I agree Tom that Itanhanga does struggle with drainage issues, but I believe that could be taken care of chaeper than a new project, should that be the desire!
Rather typicAL of Olympic sites, rather than update existing facilities lets just build new ones that will probably be underused in the future...look at Greece for inastnace, over 60% of the facilities built for the games there are not in use and stand in a state of disrepair.
Okay off my soapbox now...thsi is s golf arckitecture site...sorry.
Just dont get me started on FIFA :}

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

Itanhanga's drainage issues would surely have been fixable for less than the cost of a new course, but the Olympic Committee could not be seen as financing improvements to a private club.

[Tim Nugent]

To whom ever gets this job, God bless them.  I foresee one huge headache - "when huge Egos collide!".  As my Dad used to say, "some times the best jobs are the ones you didn't get".

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Tom,
I agree but it has never stopped them in the past from spending money on updateing soccer stadiums that belong to individual owners..so once again somewhat of a double standard from the IOC..but I do get your point.

[Howard Riefs]

Geoff Shackelford has the latest on the design competition to select a golf course design for the 2016 Olympics:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2011/10/17/olympic-design-contest-announced.html

In short, the design fee is capped at US$300k, there are three phases to the contest and the winning design will be announced on Dec. 23.

Let the lobbying begin.

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Specifics:

Process
"The project must also plan for all the stages of use of the golf course:  before  Rio 2016™ Games with the test events, at Games time and after the Games as a legacy."
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"Canddates' proposals will be examined by a jury formed by representatives of the International Golf Federation (IGF),  Rio 2016™, Rio City Hall and the Rio2016 Golf Advisory Committee(GAC)."
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"The successful candidate will be awarded  the contract to develop the design of the course at a fixed price of USD300,000."


Timing

Phase I
October 28 – Deadline for submission of documentation.

November 8 – Announcement of the firms selected to take part in Phase ll, and forwarding of the invitation for the workshop where the golf course project briefing will be presented.

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Phase II I
November 17/18 – Workshop to present project briefing to participants.

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Phase III
From November 19 to December 16 – Term set for participants to prepare their proposals.

December 16 – Deadline for proposal submission.

December 17 to 23 – Jury will interview the participating firms and carry out a final review of proposals.

December 23 –Announcement of the successful candidate.

[Tom_Doak]

Christmas in Rio!

[Steve Okula]

Is there a predetermined plot for the golf course? No mention of a selected terrain is in any of the articles.

How would that work, if architects are putting forth an abstract proposal on a mystery piece of earth?

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