[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Thanks Joe,

We now have confirmation that the 1902 course by Dunn never progressed past 9 holes which is what I thought.

We see the construction of the Graduate College between 1911 and 1914 and the expansion to Gerard Lambert's 18 hole course with all new greens and tees which is pictured in the aerial photo which you, yourself, posted in 2008 from the Hagley Museum and Library outside Wilmington and that I reposted earlier in this thread.

There are some more clues to the locations of some of the tees and greens of the original 9 hole course which will require more thinking and research on my part. I will report back when I get my head around this.

Back to the subject of Willie Dunn and the Greens Committee and who held sway. I read within Joe Bausch's deluge of articles, one from October 16, 1914, which discuss the greens of the old 9 hole course. The greens of the new Lambert Course are "vastly more interesting than was the case on the old fashioned and square flat putting greens". The 1902 Golf feature article states that the greens are "laid out on the natural contour of the land and are of the standard size, 80 feet square". Surely Dunn would not have designed or advocated for greens of this nature, or am I wrong?  I read that he was only present for a couple of days consulting with the committee and together, staking out the course. Did the greens committee do this, opting for the contemporary fashion in 1899-1902?

Your thoughts?

[Tom MacWood]

Malcolm
Good questions, and I'm not sure I know the answer. I do know Dunn was one of the most heavily criticized early golf architect by later, more advanced architects. Here is a link to an article written by Walter Travis in which he illustrates the 'Dunn System'.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1920/ag2333f.pdf

[Mike Cirba]

Malcolm,

It's also likely they didn't have money to do much more with the greens, although I'm not sure Dunn ever advocated anything that would resemble the type of advanced putting greens that evolved through the next decade and beyond.

Earlier you and Bob Crosby had speculated that perhaps Hugh Wilson's early exposure to the creation of the new course at Princeton may have been responsible for germinating his interest in architecture.

At this juncture I'd also speculate that perhaps the repeated problems with growing grass on the greens may have been the trigger for his later lifelong obsession with growing good turfgrass.

I believe it was Max Behr who wrote around 1910 that only Windeler at TCC and Leeds at Myopia knew a thing about growing grass greens, particularly inland, and that CBM had learned it as well through some hard lessons.

[Kyle Harris]

I believe it was Max Behr who wrote around 1910 that only Windeler at TCC and Leeds at Myopia knew a thing about growing grass greens, particularly inland, and that CBM had learned it as well through some hard lessons.

Interesting. All these places are north of the transition zone in areas where the climate during the golf season is not as adverse for cool-season turf like Poa annua or any of the Bents.

The climate may be the unsung exigency for Hugh Wilson's development of a turf breeding program with Piper and Oakley.

[Joe Bausch]

The entire run of the Daily Princetonian has been digitized.   I have more articles to post since 1920, and this is where they came from:

http://theprince.princeton.edu/

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Tom,

Thanks for the article by Walter Travis.

Fascinating, his story of Pinehurst Number One and Two and the revisions there. It illustrates how quickly tastes were changing and becoming more sophisticated even in the short span of ten years at the turn of the twentieth century.

This thread started because I had not seen anywhere mentioned in our club history that Willie Dunn Jr. was involved in the origins of the Princeton Golf Club/Springdale and I had seen it mentioned on GCA in earlier posts by both Mike Cirba and Tom Paul. When I saw Mike last weekend I asked him to share with me what information he had so as to document the connection with Dunn. I am pleased with the result, however, the more I see of the Springdale of 109 years ago I realize that I am falling into a trap romanticizing Willie Dunn from more than a century removed just because his fingerprints are on many fine courses.

I'm thinking now that if I were to go back in time and play my course say in 1905 I would find it shockingly "crude" as Travis dismisses Dunn's work pre-1906. Yet I am obsessed with the idea of it and want to be able to paint a picture in my mind of what it looked like then on the same grounds that I have trodden over so many times since I was a teenager and now finding myself in middle age with a bag still slung over my shoulder and taking club to hand.

[Mike Cirba]

Malcolm,

I think you've just described very well the allure so many of us feel in reaching back to learn and imagine the histories of our playing fields.

I'm really haPpy this thread has turned out so well and so informarmatively.

[Tom MacWood]

Malcolm
Willie Dunn, and the other Dunns, were very important actors in the history golf architecture. Willie and his older brother Tom were two of the most prolific early architects, Willie in America and Tom in Britain. Unfortunately they were both criticized by later architects and historians for their formulaic methods, and for more quantity than quality, but there was some quality, relatively speaking. One of Willie Dunn's greatest accomplishment was probably Ardsley, which was a very expensive high profile project.

Tom Dunn was in the US in 1899 visiting his younger bother, though I'm pretty sure that time frame was prior to Princeton. I've included a link to a brief profile of Tom Dunn.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/in-my-opinion-the-early-architects-beyond-old-tom-by-tom-macwood/the-early-golf-architects-beyond-old-tom-by-tom-macwood-pg-ii

Ironically Tom Dunn's two sons JD and Seymour both had pretty good reputations as golf architects, especially JD.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Tom,

Yes, and I believe Walter Travis worked with JD Dunn creating Ekwanok.

How did other Willie Dunn projects compare when in their early stages? Obviously Shinnecock has been beaten to death but besides Ardsley what about Apawamis, Scarsdale, The original course for Philadelphia Country Club in Bala Cynwyd, Baltimore, etc?

How outstanding was Golf de Biarritz, really?

[Tom MacWood]

I don't know much about Dunn's resume of courses. I'm not sure the list in C&W is accurate either, for example Apawamis I believe was designed by Ballou, who was member of the club. Willie Dunn probably deserves further study.

[DMoriarty]

Dumb question. Has the exact tenure of Wilson's green committee stint been realized? When did they elect or admit new members? Concurrent with the calender year, academic year, or golf year?

Judging from the articles Joe posted and a few I have seen, the captain of Princeton's golf was automatically a member of the green committee.   Again judging from various articles, the golf team captain was elected near the end of one school year to serve as captain for the next school year.  Contrary to Mike's claims above, Wilson was not captain his junior year (1900-1901.) He was captain for is senior year, the academic year of 1901-02. So his tenure on the green committee would have been for the same school year. 
______________________________________________

Malcolm,

It was commonplace for these early designers like Willie Dunn to have been referred to as "consultants" or "advisors" rather than designers or architects.  This is especially true in cases like Princeton where Dunn apparently planned the course but did not build it. (As opposed to Ardsley, for example, where he not only planned the course, he supervised its layout and construction.)  Oftentimes in these situations the green committee ended up being credited with "laying out the course" because they (or their super or pro) were actually the ones who laid the course out on the ground.  But oftentimes they weren't actually the designers.  They were laying it out according to someone else's plan. 

As for Willie Dunn's other designs, he certainly did get a lot of criticism later, and he wasn't afraid to use all sorts of strange and unnatural hazards such as the long cops, chocolate drops, and apparently even large cops made of rock.  But I also think that tried to use what natural features he had to work with, and tried to use natural undulations for greens (as opposed to the dead level terraced greens popular at the time.)

One thing that surprises me about Dunn's work is that many of his courses were much more heavily constructed than I think we would usually expect for the time period.  Some required massive tree removal and clearing, as well as major earth moving, and expense.  Many were hardly the simple and quick projects we associate with the time period.  As Joe Bausch mentioned on a different threads he was using contour maps in his design process even with these early courses like Princeton. 

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Tom and David,

I am in favor of a new thread on either Willie Dunn or even all the Dunn family.

I am curious if other GCA members have input to provide. I am very curious about and would like to learn more about Golf in America  pre-1915.

David, where did you get the "Golf" magazine article from 1902 on the Princeton Golf Club? It appears to have been scanned. I would love to sit down and carefully read through a few dozen issues from that era.

Malcolm

[DMoriarty]

Malcolm. 

USGA's online Seagle Library has old issues of some of the golf magazines. 

http://www.usgamuseum.com/researchers/usga_segl/

The search engine isn't great but the magazines are there if one wants to browse them.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

See David Moriarty's 1902 Golf Magazine Article on the Princeton Golf club.
In 1902...



Could this be the same green location 109 years later with Lena the Golden Retriever? You be the judge.

[Mike Cirba]

Ădavid,

The articles Joe posted on Princeton make clear that Dunn planned the course WITH the Greens Committee involved in that planning.

[BCrosby]

Malcolm -

If you are anywhere near Far Hills, N.J., you might want to visit the USGA library. The old Golf magazines are bound and visitors can browse through them, get copies, etc.

All -

The USGA does not have complete runs of some older magazines, including Golf. There is an on-going effort to fill those gaps as missing issues come up for sale and/or auction. Any help in locating missing issues that might be acquired would be much appreciated. If you have any leads the USGA would love to hear from you.

Bob   

[Mike Cirba]

In fact, I'd be really curious to see a list of all the courses credited to Greens Committes back then that were really the work of some pro instead...perhaps a new thread because I really don't see too many of the guys who ran these clubs out with shovels and picks to be honest.

[Mike Cirba]

Still waiting for that list....

[Mike Cirba]

A bit more on Hugh Wilson at Princeton from Joe's terrific finds

In his freshman year, after winning his club championship and setting the course record at his home club of Belmont (later Aronimink) the year prior in 1887, Wilson tried out for the golf team in October 1898.

He would fire the third best medal score and make the team easily.

October 8th, 1898




There has previously been some speculation that perhaps Wilson's appointment to the Greens Committee at Princeton was largely a ceremonial role, based on his being the Captain of the golf team.

Now we know that is incorrect.

In fact, he was elected the the Greens Committee well prior to being elected Captain.


From March 16th, 1901;





Two months later, on May 15th, 1901;

[Mike Cirba]

Malcolm,

I think that picture looks to be from the same spot.  

How likely do you think it was that a junior on the golf team would get elected to the Greens Committee of the club?

[Kyle Harris]

Malcolm,

I think that picture looks to be from the same spot.  

How likely do you think it was that a junior on the golf team would get elected to the Greens Committee of the club?

Counselor Cirba, you're begging the question.

How likely is it that a member of a college golf team would want to join the Green Committee of a club? How do you know Hugh Wilson was their first choice? Is there significance in Wilson's membership on the green committee only with the context of his later accomplishments?

Remember, Lincoln lost the election after the Lincoln/Douglas debates!

[Mike Cirba]

How likely would one "want" to indeed?! 

And how likely that the club veterans would want "one" too??   

[Kyle Harris]

How likely would one "want" to indeed?!  

And how likely that the club veterans would want "one" too??    

I think you missed my point. How many college juniors would want to spend their time dealing with matters of green committees, etc?

What did you, Mike Cirba, want to do when you were a junior in college? Remember sir, I know plenty about Bloomsburg!

The significance here, for me, is that Hugh Wilson would want to get involved with the golf course. I don't think it's all that significant that he was selected.

**edit** I think you did get my point. Apologies, but I had to rib you on your Bloomsburg career somehow!

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle,

Ribbing desrved and appreciated here. 

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Mike,

Yes, I think my photo is the same spot as the old ninth green. I wish the Seminary had not built a new dorm obscuring the old brownstone one in the 1902 photo but I assure you that it is still there.

I know we are only guessing but how could Hugh Wilson's sideline observations of the evolution of the Princeton Golf Club not have influenced his future path in life? Perhaps he was completely detached. Although he was a core member of the golf team and a first tier amateur golfer in the NY/PA district, he may have actually had no interest as the University Golf Association plotted out and built a new playing field for him to play on. Who am I to say?

Outlandish thoughts I know, sorry to postulate such shoddy speculation.

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