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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Subjectively speaking-course renovations
« on: February 14, 2011, 10:33:48 AM »
The conversation regarding what "could be" at Nefyn got me thinking.
How many courses have been changed in an effort to improve them, and after the test of time, were deemed worse?
i.e. either they are perceived as worse or a restoration was done (if a restoration was done then renovation deemed a failure)

This is totally subjective and everyone's opinion counts the same.
If you ike it better now, it's better-and vice versa.
Like to hear other's opinion, ather than rebuttals of others' posts.

I'll start
Shinnecock-didn't see it in the 30's-better now
Augusta CC-worse after 80's redo- good now after renstoration-simply different than what was previously in the ground-but very good
Forest Hill GC-Augusta- site of Jones first win in 1930-good before-awful now after two renovations
Aiken Golf Club-decent before-really good now after retro renovation by pro/super/owner.
Atlantic-good before, better now
Palmetto great before 1988-redo (which made it worse and more manicured)-very good to great now, but not enough was done to reclaim wild look lost in 1988-too many "artificial" natural areas-i.e.edged bunkers 10 yards off tees-but beautifully created Mackenzielike bunkers on many holes(some of which were placed where natural had been turfed in 88.
Sleepy Hollow-great-redone by Tillinghast-great?  redone by Jones 1995-poor
redone by Hanse recently- ?? (I haven't seen yet)

the point is all renovations seem like great ideas, until they are restored 20-30 years later
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 10:36:19 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jamie Barber

Re: Subjectively speaking-course renovations
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2011, 11:27:22 AM »
The new work on the West course at Wentworth in the UK got very widely criticized. With their green fees, I've not played it (nor do I plan to).

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Subjectively speaking-course renovations
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2011, 01:00:54 PM »
thought I'd bump this up near the spit thread so it'd get noticed
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ian Andrew

Re: Subjectively speaking-course renovations
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2011, 01:33:07 PM »
I thought this list might generate discussion from both sides

Augusta National – Maxwell’s work at 7 and 10 (plus all those greens), Trent Jones work?
Shinnecock Hills – Flynn’s complete rebuild of Raynor
Muirfield Colt’s work
Chicago Raynor rebuild of Macdonald
Kingston Heath all the detailed work by Grant around the greens
Oakland Hills (South) Robert Trent Jones renovations
Royal Birkdale Fred Hawtree’s work
Sunningdale (Old) H.S. Colt revisions of Park
New South Wales Mackenzie? Eric Apperly?
Lahinch Old Alister MacKenzie?  Martin Hawtree?
Baltrusol (Lower) A.W. Tillinghast major rebuild
Los Angeles (North) George Thomas’s rebuild of Fowler  Gil Hanse?

Tom ORourke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Subjectively speaking-course renovations
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2011, 02:22:30 PM »
There was a recent renovation to Tavistock in South Jersey. I had played there often in the 70s and early 80s and caddied there. I never thought that much of it, and the changes are great. The greens have much more movement to them. Thousands of trees were removed, even a house was removed from the 15th hole to open it up more! It made the course better, more difficult, more open, it has better drainage, and improved the course dramatically. Any member who waxes about the good old days before the changes should be shot. I play out of Moorestown Field Club, a nine holes course not too far from Tavistock and Kelly Blake Moran has been working a long term renovation of our place. Any former member who comes back loves just about every change. One thing I notice about a good renovation is how quickly you forget what used to be. If people keep talking about the old venue, you might not have done a good job. If they forget the old and embrace the new, you did it right.

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Subjectively speaking-course renovations
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2011, 03:25:03 PM »
Jeff: I think the difference between Nefyn and the courses you list is that they were mainly considered solid before renovations. I think renovating Nefyn would be more akin to the overhaul Simpson or Colt did on some Scottish and Irish courses -- fundamental changes that took advantage of key natural features.

I'm not picking on Nefyn here, but unless you completely buggered it up, I don't see how you could make it worse. Right now it is very plain, bordering on dull, with a couple of holes that are awkward (mainly 12, but 16 as well). Could those things be fixed? Could an architect, for example, find a better routing?

I'll use the second hole as an example -- a great driving hole with the cliff and the ocean. But given the bunker placement there is no reason to play near the cliff -- just play away from it. There's no strategy in playing down the right side if one wants the best approach to the green. I'd argue this lack of strategy is consistent throughout the course.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Subjectively speaking-course renovations
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2011, 03:48:57 PM »
Jeff: I think the difference between Nefyn and the courses you list is that they were mainly considered solid before renovations. I think renovating Nefyn would be more akin to the overhaul Simpson or Colt did on some Scottish and Irish courses -- fundamental changes that took advantage of key natural features.

I'm not picking on Nefyn here, but unless you completely buggered it up, I don't see how you could make it worse. Right now it is very plain, bordering on dull, with a couple of holes that are awkward (mainly 12, but 16 as well). Could those things be fixed? Could an architect, for example, find a better routing?

I'll use the second hole as an example -- a great driving hole with the cliff and the ocean. But given the bunker placement there is no reason to play near the cliff -- just play away from it. There's no strategy in playing down the right side if one wants the best approach to the green. I'd argue this lack of strategy is consistent throughout the course.

No arguement there, but if you play nearer the cliff your shot is shorter, no?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Subjectively speaking-course renovations
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2011, 04:40:56 PM »
Maybe -- but that's not what I'd call strategy. Now if the green was more receptive to an approach nearer the cliff, then it would make sense. That's not the case.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Subjectively speaking-course renovations
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2011, 04:48:23 PM »
Maybe -- but that's not what I'd call strategy. Now if the green was more receptive to an approach nearer the cliff, then it would make sense. That's not the case.

i hear you, but spending money to attract a few more beard pullers who probably don't pay full rate anyway can't be a winning struggle for a club trying to stay afloat financially.
Ultimately if the members are happy.....
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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