[Matt_Ward]

DESERT COURSE RATINGS (top 25)
 
*Target area = SoCal Cochella Valley area, and the following states where applicable ... Southern Nevada, AZ desert areas, NM desert areas and south western UT. Did not include high desert areas in such states as Oregon, Colorado and Washington.

*Note: Apache Strong hold would be rated if conditions were improved substanially.
*Please note: I have only walked The Madison Club -- not played it yet. Likely would be included within the top 25.



FIRST FIVE
Whisper Rock / Lower
Stone Eagle
The Estancia Club
Black Mesa
Wolf Creek


SECOND FIVE
Shadow Creek *have not played the course since the recent work.
Whisper Rock / Upper
Stone Canyon
Desert Highlands
Desert Mtn / Chirichua


THIRD FIVE
Desert Forest
Silverleaf
Big Horn / Mtn
Desert Mtn / Geronimo
The Quarry at LaQuinta


FOURTH FIVE
PGA West / Nicklaus Private
Vista Verde
We-ko-pa / Saguaro
Coyote Springs / The Chase
Desert Mtn / Renegade


FIFTH FIVE
The Gallery / North
Desert Willow / Firecliff
Sand Hollow
Southern Dunes
Desert Mtn / Outlaw

Happy to debate and discuss possible changes -- but only if solid info can be provided.

[Andy Troeger]

Kind of a tough category in terms of what to include or not include.  We've quibbled over placement, but overall I can't see anything too out of place here save the couple disagreements we'll skip rehashing!

Is Shadow Creek really a desert course? If it is, wouldn't you also have to include Southern Highlands somewhere?

[Tim Bert]

Matt - how many "fives" would you have to go down to get to either course at Primm Valley?

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

My mistake -- I listed Southern Dunes and frankly either Southern Highlands or the Curley / Schimdt design can be placed there.

Hard to say what's a pure "desert" style layout when a course like Shadow Creek is framed with more pines than many courses in North Carolina.

Brian:

I can't say -- never been to the Middle East or Emirates in Dubai. Maybe others can provide that info / link.

Tim:

I'd have to give that some thought -- Primm Valley is good -- the issue is just how good. I like it -- likely would make a top 50 placement -- issue is just how high or low.

[Matthew Sander]

Matt,

Thanks for the insight...I'm heading out to AZ in late March and my Dad and I are planning on heading to Southern Dunes. I'm looking forward to it.

I've played several on your list and I would have to say the most "fun" desert golf I've played is Outlaw at Desert Mountain. It played differently than any other desert course I've played and is such a departure from the typical desert course "target" feel. I highly recommend it to anyone who can make it happen. The course is built for ground game options (where they are not only available, but preferred in some circumstances) and the maintenance allows it to be played as intended. 

[Adam Clayman]

Naturally I have issues with some of these placements. Wolf Creek ahead of Shadow Creek being the most obvious. Desert Forest is way too low also.

Pinon Hills shouldn't suffer because it's played in the wrong configuration and the city manager wants it green. The design is better than most and is easily Dye's best effort I have seen. 

Matt, Why not include the high desert courses in Oregon, Colorado, Nebraska, Wyoming Washington? They certainly would alter this list.

A desert is a desert.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

PH would be a fine choice when they shut off the H20.

Conditioning does matter to me -- for you it doesn't. So be it.

The same thing applies to Apache Stronghold -- when they get it in consistent shape the actual design will only
be much better.

When you say Desert Forest is "too low" -- you'd need to outline for me what courses in the desert you have played ?

It may be in fact higher for you because you have not played the full range of courses I have listed.

In regards to the high desert courses of the other states you mentioned - that can be done -- would take a bit longer and you still get the same issues as to whether they are true desert designs -- a great example I wanted to provide is Red Ledges in Heber City, UT -- has plenty of characteristics of a desert course although some may still quibble about that.

Matt S:

Curious to know how you would rate Outlaw among all other desert courses you have played. I really like it too and would encourage people to play it if the opportunity arises.

[John Kavanaugh]

I played Vista Verde last week as a walk up.  I was too cheap to even hint at a freebee at less than $60 including cart.  Vista Verde could be the best value in golf given it was firm and fast with sneaky quick greens. 

One of the hidden treats at Vista Verde is that the lack of a clubhouse encourages "pure" golfers to show up and play.  I was paired with a lovely couple who are members of Knickerbocker C.C. in New Jersey.  We played at noon during a week when a PGA event was just down the road in under 4 hours.  Hey, they have even paved the road to get there.

[Jerry Kluger]

I would love to learn what the maintenance budgets are for some of those high end private courses you listed.  The conditioning is impeccable but on the other hand they have limited grass areas and I cannot imagine that there is a significant cost to maintaining the desert areas.

BTW: I am going to be in Scottsdale 4/15-4/23 and I plan on playing a bunch of golf if anyone is going to be in the area wants to join me. 

[Tim Leahy]

No Stadium Course at PGA West or La Quinta Mountain Course?

[Matthew Sander]

Matt W.,

Outlaw is near the top of my list of desert courses. Admittedly though, my sample size is small in comparison to yours and all of the desert golf I've played is in AZ (I probably should post this response in the AZ thread). To answer your question, I would rank my top five as follows...

1. WeKoPa - Saguaro   
2. Desert Mountain - Outlaw
3. Desert Forest
4. Blackstone
5. Raven at Verrado

As I stated earlier, we're planning to hit Southern Dunes in March and we'll have room for at least one other round. My dad mentioned Wigwam Gold, but I'm going to suggest Vista Verde...we'll see...

[Sean Leary]

I feel like the high desert courses are different but I wouls like to see the Mexican desert courses as part of the ranking...

[Mark Smolens]

Matthew, work hard on your dad because Wigwam has the history, but you will love Vista Verde. I'm going to try to play there Saturday, and I have Southern Dunes on Thursday (with Vistal in between the two because it's so darn cheap and I'm taking both Mom and my brother).

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

I find PGA West / Stadium to be redundant -- Pete did a far better job with TPC / Sawgrass. I just prefer the Nicklaus Private at the facility. See Doak's comments in CG -- I agree with his sentiment on both fronts.

LaQuinta / Mountain for me is really about the ending series of holes which garner the most attention. Good layout indeed but I see the bar being a bit higher -- give you an example the layouts at Big Horn -- especially Mountain are really good. No doubt a personal preference but I don't know just how many of the layouts from my list you have played to make a fair comparison.

Matthew S:

Plan on playing Vista Verde -- Wigwam is a clear backseat choice to that one. John K's comments are spot on in my book.

Vista Verde may be one of the best in season bargains there is in all of the desert areas -- especially given how deep the arms can go in taking $$ from your pockets in the greater Scottsdale area now.

[Ken Moum]

I would love to learn what the maintenance budgets are for some of those high end private courses you listed.  The conditioning is impeccable but on the other hand they have limited grass areas and I cannot imagine that there is a significant cost to maintaining the desert areas.

BTW: I am going to be in Scottsdale 4/15-4/23 and I plan on playing a bunch of golf if anyone is going to be in the area wants to join me. 

IIRC, seven or eight years ago, at least a couple of the courses on Matt's list were spending over a million.  With about $300,000 of that for water.

[Matt_Ward]

Ken / Jerry:

I guess one could make a separate listing of the most efficient H20 users in the Valley area and say what one does the best on the design / conditioning and water usage front.

Be curious to know the total H20 bill for a complex like Desert Mtn !

[Mark Smolens]

I think I read somewhere that the courses on Indian reservations (Talking Stick N and S, Whirlwind, We Ko Pa) had far fewer restrictions water use wise. I will say that in my experience there have been a number of occasions when I thought that TSN was over-watered.

[Brian Stewart]

I think I read somewhere that the courses on Indian reservations (Talking Stick N and S, Whirlwind, We Ko Pa) had far fewer restrictions water use wise. I will say that in my experience there have been a number of occasions when I thought that TSN was over-watered.

Mark,

This is true.  They do not have restrictions on the amount of turf they use or the water that they use.  IIRC other courses are limited to 90 acres of turf after a certain year.  Don't remember the exact year.

[Kalen Braley]

If we are including WA area courses, Wine Valley would be in there...although its not really Desert.

P.S.  Speaking of killer deals, played 36 holes for $80.  What a fantastic deal that was for that quality of a course!

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

Can't deny the value and qualities of WV -- but desert golf ?

Don't think so.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

Can't deny the value and qualities of WV -- but desert golf ?

Don't think so.

Ok, you caught me! 

I was mostly trying to get in a shout out for Wine Valley.  The course is in fantastic shape, and it was just as enjoyable/epic as my 1st visit 1.5 years ago.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

Defining desert areas is tough -- some places are more of a combo transition point.

Take for example Red Ledges in Heber City, UT -- love the course but I don't see the layout as being part of a pure desert scene. Close but not exact. Ditto for a place like Wine Valley.

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, you are correct, I don't have the sheer magnitude of courses that you have seen.

I think full disclosure on your part would help all of us understand your placements better.

In other words, which of the courses on your list did you attempt to have a business relationship? Whether you closed them or not.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

If you want to understand my placements better -- how bout doing some of your own self-admitted lack of personal hiomework ?

I laugh when people start down the path that somehow something must be amiss.

I have visited the courses as a freelance media member -- in nearly all the cases tied to rating the course in some capacity or in other cases by me simply going to visit them and paying my $$ to play them. Black Mesa is the only facility I introduced the ownership there to a firm in NYC that could help them with their own visibility -- I saw the course as something of real quality and simply passed along a contact to the appropriate person. I don't play a day-to-day role in how they determine their efforts on that front.

Now, that that is done -- can we return to the subject matter at hand ?

By the way -- if people really see Black Mesa as a suspect pick then frankly they don't quality design if it hit their face. Are you suggesting that the comments I have made concerning Black Mesa are inaccurate or fudged ?

Adam, for full disclosure purposes -- what are your ties ? Are you a member of any clubs in which you have made favorable comments? Can you please disclose your role in those areas ? And, by the way, do you lob such questions to other more prominent commentators who also dabble in the golf design consulting arena or is this just selective targeting on your part ?

[Anton]

Haven't been out to AZ yet but heading out there is in the planning.  Surprised that the commercial desert course marketing machine known as Troon didnt make your list.  Everytime I researched a trip out to AZ Troon is at the top of the list.  I dont really "need" to play it but just curious why it didnt make the list.

Desert Mt., Estancia, Dove Mt., and G-Hawk are on my list so far.  Hopefully a weeklong trip next winter.  Thanks for your list and opinion.

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