[Niall C]

The biggest mystery to me is that people who know very little about the process of designing and construction of golf courses can try to offer definitive conclusions about who was responsible for what on a project that was built 75-90 years ago, and where all of the players have long since passed away.

Tom D

The biggest mystery to me is why someone would bother posting on a thread that they think is a waste of time or a pointless exercise which is what you seem to be implying.

And let me stick my hand up right away and say that while I have made a limited number of site visits at a couple of courses under construction, I know enough to know that I don't know an awful lot which puts me firmly in the camp of those people you refer to. My interest is in learning more about how these courses came about, how they were built, the design input etc. which is one of the reasons I'm on this site.

When you look at a Mackenzie course in isolation, how much of its design can you truthfully say is Mackenzie and not one of his associates ? Very difficult I would suggest, however if you look at a body of work and join the dots you can make reasonable assumptions which is presumably what you did in your book on Mackenzie. How much about the design/construction process do I need to know before I can start to try and work out things for myself or is that process restricted to members of ASGCA (insert smiley here).

Tony, Sean, Neil, Tom Mac,

I had a look at my notes on Gleneagles which were based on the Minutes of Board meetings and correspondence book for the company which are in the National Archives. Unfortunately they only start at the formation of the company and the correspondence is only one way ie. letters out the way.

They confirm whats been said on here about Braids involvement. At the very first Board Meeting it was agreed that Hutchison would be taken on as M.D. of Golf and Other Sports. He was then instructed to approach Braid about designing two courses to set basic spec (stupidly I don't have that to hand as I type this). Terms agreed with Braid, Braid was commisioned to design and supervise the construction of the course (5 visits) in conjunction with Hutchison with a local engineer taken on the construct the course. Carters name only appeared later on.

There is no mention of any other architects and from the start of the Minutes and correspondence, it was all about getting Braid on board. FWIW, my impression is that Hutchison was there to assist Braid and act as a conduit with the board and contractor.

Niall

[Tom MacWood]

Tom
When did Mac and Max dissolve their partnership? I don't know the answer to that one. If I had to guess I'd say it was only dissolved by Mackenzie's death in 1934.

Neil
Its my impression the partnership dissolved around 1930, and I think it was always a pretty loose partnership from the beginning. Sometimes Mackenzie referred to Maxwell as a full partner, other times he called him an associated, but I don't find evidence they were together after 1930.

Maxwell & Mackenzie were involved in four projects: Melrose, Michigan, Crystal Downs and Oklahoma City. All four were built by Dean Woods, Maxwell's dedicated construction man before and after Mackenzie. There is strong evidence Maxwell planned three of the four, with the unknown forth being Crystal Downs. IMO all four of the courses display a Maxwell touch. Now you could say that is because Maxwell oversaw the projects, but one of the unique aspects about Mackenzie's courses, he was able to translate his distinct style through a number of diverse construction people: Morcom, Hunter, Miller, Charles Mackenzie, etc. I don't believe that style comes through with any of those four courses.

Also Mackenzie was personally involved in courses east of the Rockies around this time, but those courses were built by Wendell Miller. It appears to me Maxwell and Mackenzie, more or less worked independently. Mackenzie may have given some advice but they were by and large Maxwell courses. It would be interesting to see what their financial arrangement was, did they split it 50/50 or did one or the other take a smaller cut. And correct me if I'm wrong I believe Crystal Downs was not completed until 1933; it is interesting to note Maxwell continued his involvement there after their partnership apparently dissolved. For all those reasons that is why I believe Crystal Downs is a mystery.

What is the latest date you've seen Maxwell included on Mackenzie's letterhead?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Without opeining a can of worms, I believe that Colt's role in the design of the West course at Merion is an unsolved mystery. 

David
I don't believe he was involved. Colt and Alison were very thorough about listing and advertising the projects they were involved with and they never listed Merion. There was a time when they did list Philadelphia CC; I believe Alison was involved there at some point but I think it ultimately fell through.

[Tom MacWood]

I have a couple of mysteries. I have been communicating by e-mail with the great grandson of William Connellan and he has indicated that Connellan built two private estate golf courses:  

A course in D.C. named "Friendship", for E.B. McLean the publisher.

A course on the estate of Cyrus Curtis , another great publishing magnate of Philadelphia.

I have located pictures that would indicate they were truly world class golf courses, but no record of the architects. Built sometime around 1920.

Bradley
Does he believe he designed them too?

[Mike Cirba]

I'm thinking this may have been covered here before, but could someone summarize the evolution of the property where the Olympic Lake course sits today?   I know a prior course existed there designed by Wilfrid Reid and James Dagleish called Lakeside.

Any remnants of that course incorporated into today's version??

Tom MacWood,

I thought Joe Bausch had previously documented Mackenzie's involvement at Melrose?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

The problem I see with some guys digging around incessantly is much of the time facts are not uncovered (let alone finding the smoking gun) and indeed interpretation of reports are used to draw conclusions which are then presented as fact - often thereby making things even more muddled.

Are you suggesting that all research should be halted ?

That the existing understanding of all histories should be accepted as totally factual ?

Sean, think about what you've posted.

People have to judge for themselves, based on the evidence and logic presented.

Every jury trial doesn't reach the perfect verdict but that doesn't mean that we should abandon the justice system.

And, we shouldn't abandon the discovery process and the exercising due diligence.
And, we shouldn't accept as fact, a history that can't tolerate intense scrutiny.

[Sean_A]

Patrick

The problem I see with some guys digging around incessantly is much of the time facts are not uncovered (let alone finding the smoking gun) and indeed interpretation of reports are used to draw conclusions which are then presented as fact - often thereby making things even more muddled.

Are you suggesting that all research should be halted ?

That the existing understanding of all histories should be accepted as totally factual ?

Sean, think about what you've posted.

People have to judge for themselves, based on the evidence and logic presented.

Every jury trial doesn't reach the perfect verdict but that doesn't mean that we should abandon the justice system.

And, we shouldn't abandon the discovery process and the exercising due diligence.
And, we shouldn't accept as fact, a history that can't tolerate intense scrutiny.

Pat

I think people can do as they please, but if we are gonna use "intense scrutiny" as the measuring bar most histories of old courses will fail the test.  Should that stop all research?  No, not in my opinion, but it won't be me spending the time doing the research.  Much of what people seem to be in search of is not knowable to a degree of "intense scrutiny", but they can keep looking if it pleases them.  I find some of it interesting not from a credit perspective, but more from a overall look at the progress of architecture.  My beef is more about folks getting hung up on sposed facts when really we are talking about interpretation of facts and more often reports.  History is nothing without interpretation, but at some point folks have to realize that a theory based on interpretation is not fact so why all the arguing?  As you say, folks can judge for themselves and most reasonable folks would use phrases such as to the best of my knowledge, or I think, or any final conclusion based on the available evidence is premature...They wouldn't go toe to toe with another guy when neither can really state anything definitive. 

Ciao 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Gleneagles/Braid

Further to Niall’s well researched comments all I can say is that The Gleneagles story is interesting starting with questions regards the amount of money the Directors spent initially. Many questions and arguments went back and forward before the hotel let alone the golf course was started. The stories are well documented in the financial papers if one wishes to search them out, but in the end we have a Braid course which is mentioned in some of the following articles.

Gleneagles 1914


Gleneagles 1917  P.1


P.2


Gleneagles 1919  P.1


P.2


P.3


P.4






Melvyn

PS Gleneagles Queens Course of 1921

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

The issue becomes:

When do you accept and when do you question ?

I think the questioning process has been revealing.

Perhaps not incrementally, to your satisfaction, but, alot has been learned.

I'm in the camp that we can learn alot about the general details, but far less about the intimate details.

But, we'll never learn anything if the questions aren't posed and the evidence brought forth.

So, I say, let those interested in research, those interested in uncovering the undiscovered do so to their hearts content.

Folks like you and I will view the evidence, the facts and the logic and decide for ourselves what we think of the presentation.

It will either be dismissed, accepted or shelved pending more research.  Or a combo of those, but, I don't think we should discourage and/or dismiss research efforts

[Bradley Anderson]

I have a couple of mysteries. I have been communicating by e-mail with the great grandson of William Connellan and he has indicated that Connellan built two private estate golf courses:  

A course in D.C. named "Friendship", for E.B. McLean the publisher.

A course on the estate of Cyrus Curtis , another great publishing magnate of Philadelphia.

I have located pictures that would indicate they were truly world class golf courses, but no record of the architects. Built sometime around 1920.

Bradley
Does he believe he designed them too?

Tom,

I am not sure. All I have is this statement from his great grandson:

"He built private courses for Cyrus Curtis (publisher of Ladies Home Journal and Saturday Evening Post), and for E. B. McLean (owner and publisher of the Washington Post).  The McLean course, built in 1922, was the golf course of choice for McLean when he hosted his friend, President Warren Harding."

I waiting hear back from him.

[Joe Bausch]

TMac, was the reporting at the time all pretty much like this for Yale?  This from the August 12, 1925 edition of the Geneva Times:

[Tom_Doak]

Tom
When did Mac and Max dissolve their partnership? I don't know the answer to that one. If I had to guess I'd say it was only dissolved by Mackenzie's death in 1934.

Neil
Its my impression the partnership dissolved around 1930, and I think it was always a pretty loose partnership from the beginning. Sometimes Mackenzie referred to Maxwell as a full partner, other times he called him an associated, but I don't find evidence they were together after 1930.

Maxwell & Mackenzie were involved in four projects: Melrose, Michigan, Crystal Downs and Oklahoma City. All four were built by Dean Woods, Maxwell's dedicated construction man before and after Mackenzie. There is strong evidence Maxwell planned three of the four, with the unknown forth being Crystal Downs. IMO all four of the courses display a Maxwell touch. Now you could say that is because Maxwell oversaw the projects, but one of the unique aspects about Mackenzie's courses, he was able to translate his distinct style through a number of diverse construction people: Morcom, Hunter, Miller, Charles Mackenzie, etc. I don't believe that style comes through with any of those four courses.

Also Mackenzie was personally involved in courses east of the Rockies around this time, but those courses were built by Wendell Miller. It appears to me Maxwell and Mackenzie, more or less worked independently. Mackenzie may have given some advice but they were by and large Maxwell courses. It would be interesting to see what their financial arrangement was, did they split it 50/50 or did one or the other take a smaller cut. And correct me if I'm wrong I believe Crystal Downs was not completed until 1933; it is interesting to note Maxwell continued his involvement there after their partnership apparently dissolved. For all those reasons that is why I believe Crystal Downs is a mystery.

What is the latest date you've seen Maxwell included on Mackenzie's letterhead?

Tom:

MacKenzie's idea of partnerships seems to have been on a project-by-project basis.  There is no evidence I've seen that partners divided up the earnings at the end of the year or anything of the sort ... I think they were paid separately according to terms laid out at the beginning of each given job.  So, there would be no formal "dissolution" of a partnership between MacKenzie and Maxwell.

I'm of the opinion that the U of M course and especially Crystal Downs DO have MacKenzie traits to them that would indicate he had more than superficial involvement.  Heck, just the routing of the front nine at Crystal Downs is so unusual that whoever did it had a huge impact on the golf course, and that apocryphal story about #9 has MacKenzie explaining the routing to Maxwell, not the other way around. 

If I were to agree with your take that those four courses are all really Maxwell in their roots, then I would have to ask, why would he have partnered with MacKenzie at all, if Dr. MacKenzie just took some of the credit and the money and brought nothing to the table?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom and Jeff, thanks for your input given you guys actually live with this topic. I am struggling with how much I agree with Pat's points here. It is 100%. One more for those whose who give scripture and verse credibility to newspaper articles. I have spent my life with historians for parents and more than a passing interest myself. One very troubling thing. We all rely on newspaper accounts of events. Yet, as all of us know from those events in life where we know the true facts and also watched what was written on those stories in the newspapers and related periodicals. The facts and what is written by the press are at best 50% accurate. Yes it is often all we have, but to fight over what these articles say as if they are fact is well mental masturbation at a 3rd world country level.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
When did Mac and Max dissolve their partnership? I don't know the answer to that one. If I had to guess I'd say it was only dissolved by Mackenzie's death in 1934.

Neil
Its my impression the partnership dissolved around 1930, and I think it was always a pretty loose partnership from the beginning. Sometimes Mackenzie referred to Maxwell as a full partner, other times he called him an associated, but I don't find evidence they were together after 1930.

Maxwell & Mackenzie were involved in four projects: Melrose, Michigan, Crystal Downs and Oklahoma City. All four were built by Dean Woods, Maxwell's dedicated construction man before and after Mackenzie. There is strong evidence Maxwell planned three of the four, with the unknown forth being Crystal Downs. IMO all four of the courses display a Maxwell touch. Now you could say that is because Maxwell oversaw the projects, but one of the unique aspects about Mackenzie's courses, he was able to translate his distinct style through a number of diverse construction people: Morcom, Hunter, Miller, Charles Mackenzie, etc. I don't believe that style comes through with any of those four courses.

Also Mackenzie was personally involved in courses east of the Rockies around this time, but those courses were built by Wendell Miller. It appears to me Maxwell and Mackenzie, more or less worked independently. Mackenzie may have given some advice but they were by and large Maxwell courses. It would be interesting to see what their financial arrangement was, did they split it 50/50 or did one or the other take a smaller cut. And correct me if I'm wrong I believe Crystal Downs was not completed until 1933; it is interesting to note Maxwell continued his involvement there after their partnership apparently dissolved. For all those reasons that is why I believe Crystal Downs is a mystery.

What is the latest date you've seen Maxwell included on Mackenzie's letterhead?

Tom
The last Mac letterhead I have seen is from 1933 and at this time he was just calling himself Dr Alister Mackenzie and Associates. No specifics who the associates were. There is a 1929 one for Mackenzie and Egan that has Maxwell's name inserted by hand between Mac and Egan!

It would appear that in the cases of both Melrose and Oklahoma City, that Maxwell got these jobs first, but for whatever reason - whether he offered it, or the client asked for it - Mackenzie was subsequently involved to add extra impetus from both a marketing and design perspective. In both these cases I think there is enough evidence from newspaper accounts that Mackenzie was certainly involved in the planning of the courses, changing Maxwell's plan in the case of Melrose. We can only surmise what a fee split there might have been, perhaps in the case of Melrose and OC, Mackenzie was paid separately, over and above Maxwell's fee.

Crystal Downs is different, as the contact came through Robert Hunter and hence Mackenzie, who then called Maxwell in. In this case I think they almost certainly had one overall fee, which they would have split in some way. As for University of Michigan, I suspect that this was more Maxwell's job in the getting stage.

It is known that Wendell Miller was building a course for Maxwell when Miller died, and there seems some evidence that Maxwell and Miller knew each other well in those later years, say the early 1930s. Even though there are no courses that can be put down to the Mac - Maxwell partnership in the 1930s, can we assume that they had formally dissolved their partnership? Perhaps it just faded away, especially as projects got harder to get in those depression days, and both wanted as much work for themselves out of each project, which may be why Mac did not bring Maxwell in on Augusta National.

Pretty much all conjecture, but educated guesses perhaps to be kind.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom D
Like you I think Mac and his "partners" divided up fees on a project by project basis, it just seems logical to me.

The other question you posed was why Maxwell brought in Mackenzie, in response to Tom Mac's question. I suspect both saw it as mutually beneficial. From Maxwell's side Mackenzie's "international" reputation was made a big deal of in marketing the courses and this would have been of some assistance to him in getting other jobs. And I'm sure he felt he could learn something by working with Mac. From Mac's perspective, when there were lots of projects happening in the 1927 - 1929 time period in the US, so he could be a part of more projects, get his name more out there and earn more fees - and have someone who would stick around that he was confident of to handle all the details during construction.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

I thought Joe Bausch had previously documented Mackenzie's involvement at Melrose?

You're right, Joe did find articles documenting Mackenzie's involvement, but those same article said Maxwell drew up the plans. You also have Mackenzie's famous letter to Maxwell commending him for the design and construction of Melrose.

[Tom MacWood]

TMac, was the reporting at the time all pretty much like this for Yale?  This from the August 12, 1925 edition of the Geneva Times:

Joe
When I read an article like that I come away thinking the author was confused. CBM never supervised the building of any golf course Raynor designed, it was always the other way around. And of the two who was the more foremost?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom:

MacKenzie's idea of partnerships seems to have been on a project-by-project basis.  There is no evidence I've seen that partners divided up the earnings at the end of the year or anything of the sort ... I think they were paid separately according to terms laid out at the beginning of each given job.  So, there would be no formal "dissolution" of a partnership between MacKenzie and Maxwell.

I'm of the opinion that the U of M course and especially Crystal Downs DO have MacKenzie traits to them that would indicate he had more than superficial involvement.  Heck, just the routing of the front nine at Crystal Downs is so unusual that whoever did it had a huge impact on the golf course, and that apocryphal story about #9 has MacKenzie explaining the routing to Maxwell, not the other way around. 

If I were to agree with your take that those four courses are all really Maxwell in their roots, then I would have to ask, why would he have partnered with MacKenzie at all, if Dr. MacKenzie just took some of the credit and the money and brought nothing to the table?

What traits? IMO Crystal Downs & Michigan are not prototypical of Mackenzie, especially from a bunkering perspective, Mackenzie's calling card. At Michigan we know why, because the plan is drawn and signed by Maxwell.

[Tom MacWood]

Neil
The last I see Maxwell on Mackenzie's letterhead in December 1930. On the later letters I've seen Mac not only dropped Maxwell, he also dropped Egan. According to Chris Clouser's book Maxwell designed/redesigned five courses between 1930 and 1933, and none of them were with Mackenzie. Likewise Mackenzie designed/redesigned a similar number during that period, and none were with Maxwell. I believe the last known project for Maxwell/Mackenzie was 1929.

Wendell Miller was involved in the construction of Southern Hills (that is where he died), but I suspect his involvement was for the irrigation, and I'd be very surprised if Dean Woods didn't oversee construction. Miller was involved with tons of golf architects, before and after Mackenzie. Its my impression Miller was the foremost irrigation man in those days.

The CD story is 100% based on one man's recollection, and there is something about that story that just does not add up in my mind. The design of the golf course for one, its Prairie Dunes' long lost twin.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom D
Like you I think Mac and his "partners" divided up fees on a project by project basis, it just seems logical to me.

The other question you posed was why Maxwell brought in Mackenzie, in response to Tom Mac's question. I suspect both saw it as mutually beneficial. From Maxwell's side Mackenzie's "international" reputation was made a big deal of in marketing the courses and this would have been of some assistance to him in getting other jobs. And I'm sure he felt he could learn something by working with Mac. From Mac's perspective, when there were lots of projects happening in the 1927 - 1929 time period in the US, so he could be a part of more projects, get his name more out there and earn more fees - and have someone who would stick around that he was confident of to handle all the details during construction.

Neil
I agree, but unfortunately for both men the timing of that mutually beneficial arrangement (because of the market crash) couldn't have been worse. After that it was every man for himself.

[Tom MacWood]

I have a couple of mysteries. I have been communicating by e-mail with the great grandson of William Connellan and he has indicated that Connellan built two private estate golf courses:  

A course in D.C. named "Friendship", for E.B. McLean the publisher.

A course on the estate of Cyrus Curtis , another great publishing magnate of Philadelphia.

I have located pictures that would indicate they were truly world class golf courses, but no record of the architects. Built sometime around 1920.

Bradley
Does he believe he designed them too?

Tom,

I am not sure. All I have is this statement from his great grandson:

"He built private courses for Cyrus Curtis (publisher of Ladies Home Journal and Saturday Evening Post), and for E. B. McLean (owner and publisher of the Washington Post).  The McLean course, built in 1922, was the golf course of choice for McLean when he hosted his friend, President Warren Harding."

I waiting hear back from him.

According to a later article in the Washington Post by Shirley Povich, MacLean imported a Scottish professional to design his course. Connellan was Scottish or Irish, but I think he had been over here a while in 1922. I also believe he specialized in construction.

Povich, the legendary sports columnist, met MacLean at Bar Harbor, where he was his regular caddie. He became sports editor for the Post at the age of 20.

[Joe Bausch]

According to a later article in the Washington Post by Shirley Povich, MacLean imported a Scottish professional to design his course. Connellan was Scottish or Irish, but I think he had been over here a while in 1922. I also believe he specialized in construction.

Povich, the legendary sports columnist, met MacLean at Bar Harbor, where he was his regular caddie. He became sports editor for the Post at the age of 20.

Shirley you can't be serious TMac.

[Bradley Anderson]

I have a couple of mysteries. I have been communicating by e-mail with the great grandson of William Connellan and he has indicated that Connellan built two private estate golf courses:  

A course in D.C. named "Friendship", for E.B. McLean the publisher.

A course on the estate of Cyrus Curtis , another great publishing magnate of Philadelphia.

I have located pictures that would indicate they were truly world class golf courses, but no record of the architects. Built sometime around 1920.

Bradley
Does he believe he designed them too?

Tom,

I am not sure. All I have is this statement from his great grandson:

"He built private courses for Cyrus Curtis (publisher of Ladies Home Journal and Saturday Evening Post), and for E. B. McLean (owner and publisher of the Washington Post).  The McLean course, built in 1922, was the golf course of choice for McLean when he hosted his friend, President Warren Harding."

I waiting hear back from him.

According to a later article in the Washington Post by Shirley Povich, MacLean imported a Scottish professional to design his course. Connellan was Scottish or Irish, but I think he had been over here a while in 1922. I also believe he specialized in construction.

Povich, the legendary sports columnist, met MacLean at Bar Harbor, where he was his regular caddie. He became sports editor for the Post at the age of 20.

His great grandson has informed me that he was born in Glasgow, Scotland in 1876. He immigrated to the United States and began his career in 1896 in Massachusetts.

My earliest documentation has Connellan here as a club grip maker headquartered in Hempstead NY in 1909. I am assuming that at this time he was also acting as greenkeeper of Garden City Golf Club.

I agree that his specialty was building, but I think he was designing much of what he built. The American Golfer, 1913 April states:

"Nearly fifty new bunkers are to be put in on the Wykagyl Country Club course at New Rochelle. Work will be commenced as soon as the weather permits, under the supervision of Wm. Connellan, the greenkeeper, who has just returned from a trip abroad with many new ideas on bunker construction."

It seems unlikely that he went to Europe to learn new ways to build bunkers, although you can't rule that out as a possibility. I think he was studying various styles of bunkers, and not just bunkers, but golf courses and architecture in general.

Connellan developed a method of rebuilding greens that Piper wrote about at great length, and I suspect that when he was finishing those greens they bore the print of his own contours. That would make him a designer in my book. 

He was also a grass specialist. He had his own bentgrass nursery in Michigan. If anyone knows about a variety of bentgrass called "Friendship" please contact me.

[Tom MacWood]

Connellan was the greenkeeper at Newton Square in Boston in 1900. He laid out the nine hole course Bellevue GC at Melrose, MA in 1899. The turf for the Friendship course reportedly came from Switzerland. I didn't know Switzerland had good turf, and that doesn't seem like a match climate wise. I suspect the reporter got his European country wrong.

[Chris_Blakely]

Connellan was the greenkeeper at Newton Square in Boston in 1900. He laid out the nine hole course Bellevue GC at Melrose, MA in 1899. The turf for the Friendship course reportedly came from Switzerland. I didn't know Switzerland had good turf, and that doesn't seem like a match climate wise. I suspect the reporter got his European country wrong.

Tom,

Is this the same Connellan (William) that designed courses with Wilfrid Reid mainly in Michigan?  Thanks,

Chris

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