Best 36-hole complex / USA

« **Reply #25 on:** January 31, 2002, 08:13:09 AM »

SPDB:

You answered your own question with your statement in not having played Bandon / Pacific Dunes. Until you do it's kind of tough to compare.

You ask who could do a similar job to what Tillie did at WF? No one can answer that because there's no way to know. I have the highest respect for WF and believe the West is one of the most demanding championships tests we have in America. The course is continually relentless -- off the tee, with the approach and with a number of the greens. I remember interviewing Fuzzy Zoeller during the 1984 Open when I asked him to compare Augusta National and WF. His answer was that at Augusta you have a few holes you can kind of get away with things but at WF you have to "know what the hell you're doing out there at all times."

If you set up Bandon the same way (with two par-5's being long par-4's) you would face a demanding challenge even when conditions are relatively benign (that doesn't happen too often at Bandon).

The East at WF is also a marvelous design and as stated by redanman (i.e. BillV) he's quite correct -- the East would be better than most state's best course. However, Pac Dunes is a superb creation by Tom Doak whose stature will only grow over the course of time.

I love both facilities. However, I give the slightest of edges to Bandon because I enjoy the proximity to the Ocean and the always changing conditions that take place there coupled with an array of solid holes and different styles between the two courses.

WF is a marvelous parkland layout. It will be interesting to see how they lengthen and further toughen the West in prepping the course for the 06 Open.

« **Reply #26 on:** January 31, 2002, 12:23:41 PM »

Blue Heron Pines E/W probably ranks in the top 25 or so I would guess.

« **Reply #27 on:** January 31, 2002, 02:25:07 PM »

I never thought of this until I just read Mike DeVries's post but how great of a site for a US Amateur would Shinnecock/National make?

This could be another decent thread "What could be the best Non-36-Hole(or 18 hole) facility to hold a US Amateur and what nearby course would host the other 18?"

Now, it seems as though the USGA is mostly targeting great 36 Hole facilities like Winged Foot, Merion, and Oakland Hills to host the Am.

« **Reply #28 on:** January 31, 2002, 02:31:59 PM »

M.W.

Shinnecock/National would be something for a US amateur. What do you think about NGLA as a par 70 in that situation? Don't know if I know of a course with one par 5 and that would be #9 and very reachable for the young long hitters though.

« **Reply #29 on:** January 31, 2002, 02:43:56 PM »

Shinnecock/National would be great but I don't see the USGA taking the Amateur to a private course that is still on the (U.S.) Open rota in this day and age. Pebble is the only dual championship locale I know of right now although Pinehurst and Bethpage also seem logical in that regard.

Perhaps others slipped by me, though.

In a quieter gentler time, it happened a lot (Merion, Winged Foot, TCC - probably a bunch of others).

« **Reply #30 on:** January 31, 2002, 02:47:53 PM »

Chip - the next two US Amateur's are at Oakmont and Winged Foot. They are private and still on the rota in 2007, and 2006, respectively.

« **Reply #31 on:** January 31, 2002, 02:53:51 PM »

Chip - what's more, this year's US AM is at Oakland Hills, although there is no US Open scheduled for that venue, I am certain "The Monster" is not off the rota.

2004 Amateur is at Merion.

« **Reply #32 on:** January 31, 2002, 02:56:39 PM »

I stand corrected. You can see that I don't need to pay a lot of attention to either championship's closing date for entry blanks!

« **Reply #33 on:** January 31, 2002, 02:57:27 PM »

I assumed we were talking not only in terms of 36 hole facility - because you certainly couldn't hold one at Merion, and TCC is only 27.

Two years ago they used both courses at Baltusrol.

I'm all over the map here.

« **Reply #34 on:** January 31, 2002, 03:11:43 PM »

The best to see NGLA hold an even is The Walker Cup. From an architectural perspective, this event has the richest history of venues in America (not even addressing its GBI counterpart), IMO

Look at some of these places

Pine Valley
Garden City
Kittansett
BCC - 5 Farms
Cypress Point
Quaker Ridge
Peachtree
and
NGLA

not to mention the TCCs, Shinneys, WFs that have also held it.

It's going to Ganton and Chicago the next two times around - how great is that?.

« **Reply #35 on:** January 31, 2002, 03:27:05 PM »

I am suprised that no one has mentioned NCR. The south course is fantastic. If it didn't have to compete with all of the otehr big name courses in Ohio, I am sure it would get more recognition. A must see for any Dick Wilson fan.

Scott

« **Reply #36 on:** January 31, 2002, 05:22:15 PM »

If we're going to talk about neighboring greats, what about Peachtree and East Lake, or even, gasp, Augusta in the summer? Or the USGA could play on 2 completely different courses that neighbor eachother in Point O Woods and Lost Dunes.....Parkland v.s. Dunes/Links stlye..interesting....

« **Reply #37 on:** February 01, 2002, 08:04:29 AM »

How far apart are Bandon/Pacific Dunes

« **Reply #38 on:** February 01, 2002, 08:09:19 AM »

SPDB - they're adjacent - part of the same complex.

TH

« **Reply #39 on:** February 01, 2002, 08:18:24 AM »

What about Wilmington CC (Delaware)? I think the South is a phenomenal test and the North certainly outshines some of the other #2 courses that have been mentioned...

In addition, I think Bulle Rock will be mentioned in this list when the second 18 opens.

Finally, although not on this level, I love both courses at Seaview. The Bay course, if fully restored, could be a wonderful old course with its tiny greens. They also have all of Ross' original blueprints displayed in the pro shop (one of the few places that still have them). The Pines is a more modern course but a nice contrast to the Bay and is usually in great shape.

« **Reply #40 on:** February 01, 2002, 08:29:52 AM »

Speaking of U.S. Amateurs, Oak Hill's West course held the Amateur a couple years ago, instead of the more famous and tougher East (site of Opens and a Ryder Cup). Did they hold any qualifying rounds on the East?

« **Reply #41 on:** February 01, 2002, 08:50:04 AM »

You really can't claim Whistling Straits / Blackwolf Run are two distinct 36-hole facilities. All are operated under the same roof / ownership.

I too am looking forward when the second 18 at Bulle Rock opens. I wonder if the course will offer something different than the original which I liked but others have different opinions (i.e. Mike Cirba).

With all due respect to Blue Heron Pines and Seaview they are fine 36-hole facilities, but it is really doubtful, in my mind, either would be listed among the top 15 36-hole facilities in the nation.

shivas:

I salute your support for Bandon / Pac Dunes but I won't go so far as to say it's "hands down" over Winged Foot. I too favor Bandon / Pac Dunes but the edge is a slight one. I also believe Olympia Fields offers a good deal of contrast between the North Course (open site for 03) and the South Course which has a few holes that are a bit mediocre but there are a few gems within the 18.

P.S. Failed to mention another 36-hole test of note -- Troon North in Scottsdale and its Monument / Pinnacle layouts. Clearly, in my opinion, one of the 10 best 36-hole sites in the nation.

« **Reply #42 on:** February 01, 2002, 10:35:01 AM »

I mentioned Troon North earlier in the thread. Talking Stick, too.

« **Reply #43 on:** February 01, 2002, 01:27:39 PM »

The history at Winged Foot is very difficult to beat, plus Pac and Bandon are pure public tracks. If the amateur were to come to Bandon Resort, I can't imagine the crowds walking all over the dunes at Pac. Winged Foot's conditioning is untouched. Also, Maidstone's less famous 18 is not nearly up to par to be considered one of the best 36 hole complexes.

« **Reply #44 on:** February 01, 2002, 03:56:22 PM »

Don't forget Sunningdale and Walton Heath. Those two are hard to beat.

« **Reply #45 on:** February 01, 2002, 05:02:41 PM »

Tom Paul,

I think a rock-hard, par 70 NGLA would be quite a test for the amateurs. I'd love to watch them play seven as a par four!

I can't think of another tournament course with only one par five either. I am, however, involved with a course right now that has 15 par 4s and 3 par 3s! I can't wait to e-mail you to tell you more about it. When I know more information I'll e-mail you and send you some pictures. You'll die!

Hope all is well down in Philly.

« **Reply #46 on:** February 01, 2002, 05:04:31 PM »

I'm surprised Gib doesn't jump in with Olympic.

My top choice is,
Winged Foot
Bandon - Pacific Dunes
Olympic Club

I'll throw in Champions in Houston and Pumpkin Ridge for good strong 36 hole layouts which nobody else has mentioned.

My suggestion for the US Amatuer would be Crystal Downs / Arcadia Bluffs combination.

« **Reply #47 on:** February 02, 2002, 04:38:23 AM »

The 75th Walker Cup was offered to NGLA (site of the first one) and they politely turned down the USGA.

Maybe they will reconsider for the one hundreth anniversary.

« **Reply #48 on:** February 02, 2002, 07:36:43 AM »

Don't forget Medinah. The "members" course is very good. Lot's of interest and some good strategic holes. Both courses have been ranked in Chicagoland's Top 10 for the longest time. Most members prefer to play there as #3 is just too long, difficult and no one likes to get "beat up" on a daily basis! When entertaining guests they play #3, but you'll get strong argument that the "members" course has more interesting architectural features. The "ladies course" at Medinah, although shorter, would be the "jewel" in many parts of the country!-------------IMHO it's Winged Foot by a nose over Bandon/Pac Dunes!!!----In Nor Cal where I grew up it's Olympic Lake/Ocean by a nose over MPCC Dunes/Shore!!!

Andy Silis

« **Reply #49 on:** February 02, 2002, 01:46:48 PM »

Bandon Dunes impressed the hell out of me. Two 0ceanside courses are tough to beat.
Did anyone mention Olympic?

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