[JESII]

Mike,

"We don't know"? Is there nothing in your evidence to suggest he was hired in 1907? Anything? If so, great. If not, then why would you ask me a few posts ago..."Recall that to do what you've just suggested, whether it was golf holes OR just the overall land boundaries, Seth Raynor would have already had to have been hired to survey the property.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Because it's an EXPENSE, and because I questioned earlier whether Raynor could do such as survey with 1906 equipment on the impassible on foot acreage as it was described or whether it would have to be largely cleared prior, meaning possibly additional expense.

If all CBM had was a handshake from a guy who shot him down prior, why would he do this?  

[JESII]

Jeff,

Your either/or is a bit ridiculous.

What do you suppose happened with regards to NGLA in the time between the two offers he made? Assuming it's nothing, why wouldn't he write those two events consecutively.

Regarding hiring Raynor versus paying an Option Deposit...why would he pay the Option Deposit before knowing full well he wanted the property when the owner was letting have full reign to walk it for free?

[JESII]

Mike,

Are you implying that CBM had a bad professional relationship with the real estate company because they didn't accept a bid he made for a different piece of land?

[JESII]

Just out of curiosity, what difference does it make when exactly any of this happened? I slept through that part of the thread.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

No, I'm implying he'd be careful and want to lock the seller in.

[JESII]

Before hiring Raynor?

So you're sticking with the Option of November 1906 being done without the land surveyed by anyone? No metes and bounds?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

ALL of the December 1906 news reports about securing the 205 acres said that the boundaries of the purchase were still undetermined, so no, no metes and bounds at that point.

Why don't you believe them?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

If its true that he made it in 1905, then we know that he spent a lot of time in Europe surveying his golf holes.  There is an article that tells us that, and that he will return about June 1906.  It does seem odd that he wasn't in that much of a hurry, but maybe being rejected was a blessing in disguise, as he realized that maybe just any old 120 acres would do.

As to paying the option deposit, if he knew full well he was going to buy it, then he doesn't lose a dime, does he?  I don't know if he was with a strained relationship with the realty company, but we do know he had some strained relations with others because of his dominant personality. Or, its just more likely that this is the way large land purchases are done.  

And, maybe he was just being prudent in taking the option knowing they may back out.  We don't know how close he came to buying the first parcel or what the negotiations were like, but again, its a large chunk of money, and not too many people would make it on a handshake basis, in some cases, even if dealing with family.

The reasons options exist is to let buyers do more study without fear of others buying (not too likely in this case) or the seller backing out, changing terms, etc.  We know roads and railroads were being extended at this same time, and it is quite possible that the real estate company could figure the land was more valuble than originally agreed to.  Speculation, but it happens, and options are there for just that purpose.

Like you, I don't think the exact nature of the legal aspect of the acquistion process had much to do with the final form, although those articles do tell us that CBM did know that the Realty guys had agreed to build a hotel that would be handy for him, as part of the deal.  If that part of the agreement wasn't legally formalized until the option of Nov 1906, I would suspect CBM would not even start the routing and couldn't know that he had to start and end at that point, while others seem to think he knew that months earlier.  That would be another big money outlay that might affect whether the deal moved forward or not, and I doubt it would be done by either side on a handshake, do you?

We also know (if you believe TePaul) that Alvord Co. made other concessions - like filling some of the swamps.  

[JESII]

Are you sure the Inn was being built as part of this agreement? I thought it was an independent effort, and possibly already underway at the time of the land purchase.

[Mike Cirba]

Speaking of the Inn, CBM got the date of the fire wrong in his book as well.

It burned to the ground in April, 1908, not 1909.

CBM tells us that he had agreement to use it for his clubhouse.   I'm not sure when that was formalized but we do know he knew it was/was being built at the time he did the routing, otherwise, how could he say he was going to locate his first hole near there?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Well, I have been called dingenuous again in a private email, so I thought I would provide the official definition, given that around here, it seems to be the new "awesome" or "superstar" (i.e. overused word):

"lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere"


Thanks, Pat, for basically calling us all liars.  Real classy, when in truth, we are all quite earnest, and none of us really knows a damn thing about what happened, least of all you.

Jim,

On the Inn, my info came from the one conversation I had off line with TePaul, and he says he got it from Goddard, who is writing a history of Long Island/Shinnecock Hills area.  I have not corroborated it, and you can take it for what its worth.  If you want to believe that TePaul is disingenuous and not to be trusted, I understand that you won't consider that information, and it could be wrong.

The articles really only say that the Realty Co. is building it, but we wouldn't expect them to tell us necessarily that it was part of their agreement with NGLA and CBM.   That said, given their main focus was on building their first lots way west near the canal, and the NGLA land was said to be worthless, what other reasons could they have to select that site for the Inn?  It was near the railway station, that they also moved (according to tepaul) for the benefit of NGLA as well.  With so little development out there, golfers going to Shinny and NGLA would be the only real source of traffic.  Its not like it was on the beach.....

And if it burned down in 1908 after CBM had trouble getting the golf course open, reducing traffic even further?  I smell arson, but, I digress. (add smiley, as I am just kidding)

[Mike Cirba]

March 19th, 1907.

Note the parts about views of the Atlantic, as well as the opening timeframe for the Inn.

[JESII]

For the "Option" to have this flexibility (no metes and bounds etc...) CBM would seem to hold all the downside risk...do you think he would take that risk at this stage of developing his dream course?

In other words, for the "Option" to be so informal that CBM had a minimal deposit cost (less than the cost of a surveyor apparently) and enable the boundaries to be moved for either sides benefit he really didn't seem all that committed to the land he was advertising as holding the potential for the greatest golf course in the world.

Might be a stretch, but I have a hard time seeing him "purchasing" the land without a survey.

[JESII]

Well, that seems to counter what Tom told Jeff, unless it only took a couple months to conceive and build...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

Whether by letter of intent earlier, or option in November, the risk of the Realty Company getting nuttier than a squirrel turd would be about the same, no?  It would all depend on what was written in whatever instrument they used.

My understanding is that a letter of intent is less formal and binding on the seller than an option.  But again, I am not sure the exact mechanics are a big issue, as these kinds of deals get done all the time.  Merion is another example.  I don't recall us discussing the legal mechanics of the wiggle room on golf house road, and maybe that was a true gentlemans agreement (although dollar figures for extra land were written in) as many people were on both sides of the deal.

At NGLA, CBM building a golf course of that caliber on land they didn't have plans for was a huge boon for the Real Estate in that area and hastened sales, which had been slow to that point.  I think we can assume that both sides were working in good faith.  I mean, the deal did get done to CBM's satisfaction didn't it?  Lets not overlook the truly obvious when postulating here!

BTW, nice catch on the dates of the Inn there.  VERY ingenuous!  To be done, they would have had to have started at the time the option was executed, not just after they sold CBM the land in spring.

[DMoriarty]

A few pages ago, I made the case that the land had already been chosen and planning was well under way at the time CBM took the option, and his response was that I "made his point for him."
   Which point is that, exactly?  He has changed his "point" more than Lady Gaga changes her outfits, and frankly even her outfits make more sense than most of Mike's points.  
   Is he referring to his his fictional alternative site, 2.3 miles long by 120 yards wide stretching from Shinnecock Hills GC almost to the Canal, with the North Highway running entirely up its gut? Or how his point about how CBM had also tried to buy land west of the Canal, in "Good Ground," and that this attempted transaction involved land NOT related to or connected with the Sebonack Property.  
  Or his point about how at the time CBM optioned and purchased the 205 acres, he was planning on putting a golf course, range, and infrastructure on only only 115 acres, and that the other 90 acres of the property would be turned over to the founders for estates?  
  Or his point aobut how even as planned the 205 acres left plenty of room for these supposed estate parcels.  Or his point in repeatedly misrepresenting what Raynor was hired to do, even though CBM clearly address this.  
 Or is he referring to his REAL point about Merion, where he blatantly misrepresents my views regarding both Merion and NGLA, and yet his claims still make no sense?
    

    These are just a few of his recent "points," but probably not the ones he had in mind.  For far from making thessa points for him, I explained how his points were erroneous, only to see him kick and fight and get indignant and then silently and obliviously skip to his next agenda driven point as if he had always agreed with me on the previous issue, maybe to return and fight the same battle again a bit later.   Might I suggest that whenever Mike claims I made his point for him, what it really means is that he is trying to drop or hide something and change the focus to his next misrepresentation.  

But I am not quite ready to "make" a few of his points "for him," and would like to explore them a bit further, inconsistencies, contradictions, and all.  

Rather than all this crazy speculation, can we please return for a few moments to what Mike Cirba has claimed, and whether it makes any sense whatsoever GIVEN THE FACTS THAT WE HAVE?  I promise that I will provide a breakdown of where we agree and disagree, and provide some suggestion of how to determine which is the more likely interpretation.

Thanks.  

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

According to those articles, CBM had NONE of the downside risk.

It was up to HIM to determine the final boundaries of his purchase.

It was reported;

"The holding has not as yet been definitely settled, as the owners of the property have allowed the golfers the privilege of determining LATER the exact boundaries of their purchase.

Why don't you believe the news articles, Jim?

I know Patrick has to try to say they lied because he's biased, but what's your problem with them?

They tell us exactly what happened and when.

[JESII]

Jeff,

My suspicion is that the land company knew the land was at least as valuable as the $200 CBM had agreed to pay. Leaving the door open on the "Option" would be weighted heavily to their advantage as compared to CBM who was clearly eager to get started and had announced publicly that he bought the land. I'm not suggesting that was their intent so much as asking why on earth CBM would expose himself to that risk just to avoid paying an engineer to survey the land.

Forget the newspapers for a second and lets poke holes in CBM's exposure as I just laid it out.

[JESII]

Mike,

Let's explore that as well.

What do you suppose CBM gave up to gain that consideration?

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Having identified some key features they wanted to incorporate as well as deciding to use the Shinnecock Inn as a clubhouse at the time the optioned the property does not equate to routing the golf course prior to optioning 205 unspecified acres in December 1906.

Your argument has been that they routed the golf course, determined it's boundary lines, and then secured the exact land they needed for the golf course, and that is NOT what happened.

Don't go drifting again here.  

Stick to the facts.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike,

Let's explore that as well.

What do you suppose CBM gave up to gain that consideration?

Jim,

I don't think he gave up anything actually.

CBM tells us everyone thought the land in question was worthless, and that included the Realty Co. presumably.

His deciding to add significant value to that land, and to the region, had to be a wet dream for Alvord's company.

THAT is why they were so amenable to leaving it open-ended....to create as great a golf course as CBM could deliver.

Why don't you believe the news articles?

[JESII]

Mike,

At Merion, we know that the Western boundary of the Northern half of the property changed locations to some extent during the routing process. Do you have any suggestions as to how these flexible boundaries may have been impacted at NGLA during the routing process?

[JESII]

Why don't you believe the news articles?

Which news articles? The ones that say the land was worthless? Or the ones that say Alvrod had just paid $125,000 ($50/acre) for it?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I think it was even looser than that.

In other words, at Merion we know the boundaries had to be land under the control of the Haverford Development Company, so by definiton, we know the eastern, northern, and southern boundaries were fixed (the holdings of the Dallas Estate and the widely contiguous portions of the Johnson Farm).

Under those constraints, the ONLY place you could move was the western boundary.

Ironically, at Merion you also had the case of some predetermination, as it was determined from the beginning that the old farmhouse near the railroad tracks would serve as the clubhouse.   We also know from CBM's visit that he told them the quarry and the creek could be made use of as good features, so they'd want to be sure to incorporate enough land in their purchase to include those.

At NGLA, Alvord's company owned virutally everything in that section of Long Island, and the 450 acres known as Sebonack Neck included land north, west, and south of the Shinnecock Inn.

The northern border seems fixed at the Bullshead Bay and far west at Peconic Bay, but otherwise, I think CBM could have located wherever he wanted within those 450 acres.

In other words, they couldn't "move" a boundary, because none had yet been determined.

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